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In the glorious ancom utopia the only armies will be whatever folks you can convince to hit a guy with a stick with you today
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Sep 1, 2017 03:13
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Troops help advance the interests of capital abroad, while police enforce their rule at home
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Sep 1, 2017 03:13
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Thank you for the answers on Anarchism! I don't entirely agree with anarchists on how to achieve a better world but I'll gladly work with them even if they are a bit weird with all the black clothing and such.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:14
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Troops help advance the interests of capital abroad, while police enforce their rule at home Totally. Idk why saying "that's hosed up" absolves one and not the other Like, imagine the reaction to a dsa ex-cops caucus right now.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:15
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Venom Snake posted:Thank you for the answers on Anarchism! I don't entirely agree with anarchists on how to achieve a better world but I'll gladly work with them even if they are a bit weird with all the black clothing and such. Real talk vs if you want some reading conquest of bread aka the bread book and anarchist faq (which I think was cowritten by Minor Threat/Fugazi front man Ian Mackaye) are good intro
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Sep 1, 2017 03:18
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Insanite posted:Totally. Idk why saying "that's hosed up" absolves one and not the other there aren't any movements of repentant cops
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Sep 1, 2017 03:19
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The veterans working group is the most anti-imperialist group in an org that's generally pretty lovely on imperialism, which could be/is more of a negative on DSA than it is a positive for the vets
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Sep 1, 2017 03:19
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Also while I wouldn't advise actually reading the forum itself r/anarchy101 has a great reading list that I've been picking my way through
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Sep 1, 2017 03:20
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Insanite posted:Totally. Idk why saying "that's hosed up" absolves one and not the other A whole lot of people join the military not because they believe in what it does but because they see an opportunity to use the system to better their life, and a whole lot of people are repentant after they get out The same can not really be said of cops
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Sep 1, 2017 03:21
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:there aren't any movements of repentant cops ya this seems like an important distinction. DSA veterans seem to acknowledge that they did an imperialism and it was bad. danny sez "bet you didn't even know there were black cops now yr racist"
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Sep 1, 2017 03:21
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:there aren't any movements of repentant cops Because no one signs up to do a few years as a cop. You get trapped in that cop lifestyle. All your friends are cops. Soon, you're eating a half-dozen donuts a day. Coercion.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:23
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Real talk vs if you want some reading conquest of bread aka the bread book and anarchist faq (which I think was cowritten by Minor Threat/Fugazi front man Ian Mackaye) are good intro Thanks for the recommendations! I'm really busy atm with school but Iv been trying to read more stuff on the leftist ecosystem to understand the different divides. It's always surprised me how factionalist the left can be at times
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Sep 1, 2017 03:24
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Insanite posted:Totally. Idk why saying "that's hosed up" absolves one and not the other Ex-cops are fine as long as they are open about it and repudiate the oppressive system they used to serve. The Veteran's Caucus doesn't have any active duty soldiers in it, at least afaik.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:24
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:A whole lot of people join the military not because they believe in what it does but because they see an opportunity to use the system to better their life, and a whole lot of people are repentant after they get out Why is bettering your life using a system that harms people in historically disadvantaged places at all morally acceptable? Where's the scrutiny there? The troop exception feels incredibly arbitrary, and the outrage way selective. Insanite has issued a correction as of 03:28 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 03:26
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a lot of poor/minority/oppressed ppl go into the military because it's one of the only stable jobs there is, get shook by u.s. empire, and become repentant vets against imperialism. it's really not hard to understand why there would be a veteran's caucus in the dsa. AFAIK no one in the veteran's wkg group works to advance the interests of the u.s. military or to strengthen its ability to operate unchallenged by those it oppresses right now, or ever denied having done so, or denied that it was bad. it's a really obvious difference people only can't make if they don't actually look at how the power flows in these groups.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:26
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the reason im cooler with vets than cop unions is that there are a lot of chill leftist vets where as cop unions support legalizing terrorism
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Sep 1, 2017 03:28
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Real talk vs if you want some reading conquest of bread aka the bread book and anarchist faq (which I think was cowritten by Minor Threat/Fugazi front man Ian Mackaye) are good intro different guy similar name
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Sep 1, 2017 03:30
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Impermanent posted:a lot of poor/minority/oppressed ppl go into the military because it's one of the only stable jobs there is, get shook by u.s. empire, and become repentant vets against imperialism. it's really not hard to understand why there would be a veteran's caucus in the dsa. AFAIK no one in the veteran's wkg group works to advance the interests of the u.s. military or to strengthen its ability to operate unchallenged by those it oppresses right now, or ever denied having done so, or denied that it was bad. it's a really obvious difference people only can't make if they don't actually look at how the power flows in these groups. I don't really find it that obvious, but maybe I'm an idiot. Hick cops in Texas don't get to carpet bomb places that have never had running water. If you've fed into something like that, you have a lot to repent for. I'm not saying that a vets group is bad or that their intentions are, either. I just think the acceptance of it has been hilariously smooth given the fury about cops. Insanite has issued a correction as of 03:34 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 03:32
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Insanite posted:Why is bettering your life using a system that harms people in historically disadvantaged places at all morally acceptable? Where's the scrutiny there? This same argument came up recently in another thread and the answer is basically there's no way to improve your standard of living under capitalism without stepping on someone. That's especially true here in America, at the heart of the empire. Some people are in a really lovely life situation, and the military is the only ladder out of that.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:34
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Insanite posted:The troop exception feels incredibly arbitrary, and the outrage way selective. Like, what do you imagine is the actual basis for objecting to someone who (was a troop/was a cop or cop organizer) being in a socialist org? Is it that there's some metaphysical taint that gets applied to someone's soul, or is it the concern that having been a part of these systems, one might not understand why they are oppressive and bad? And that this lack of understanding will lead to lovely politics? It's not a "troop exception" it's a "these people don't support the thing they were once a part of and understand why it must be opposed" exception. It just so happens that quite a few veterans - and there is a long history of this - come out the other side of their experience in the military realizing that war is a racket and imperialism is a horror. (On the other hand, Fetonte's #notallcops outbursts that he just can't repress.) If you think that acknowledging the problem with your former occupation is an arbitrary distinction or is just something petty like "saying sorry" (with the implication that obviously they don't really mean it or that no apology could suffice), then I don't think you really understood the problem to begin with. (Edit: And I'll say here that if Fetonte had actually centered his CLEAT experience in his campaign for the NPC in a way that shows that he can see that it was a problem and that organizing police is not the same as organizing workers, I think we might not be in this situation and for good reason.) GunnerJ has issued a correction as of 03:40 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 03:36
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TrilliontonNixon posted:This same argument came up recently in another thread and the answer is basically there's no way to improve your standard of living under capitalism without stepping on someone. That's especially true here in America, at the heart of the empire. Some people are in a really lovely life situation, and the military is the only ladder out of that. Sure. There are ways to step on people without directly committing violence against them, though. That's not morally okay to me.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:36
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Phi230 posted:Look at me I've been a "socialist" for 2 months Phi230 posted:Very glad socialism is just the newest fad that some of you jumped on the bandwagon for, and that you'll all forget about it in like a year get a load of this fart huffing highfalutin jackoff
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Sep 1, 2017 03:36
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if there was a DSA ex cops working group that had the same attitude towards their time in the police as the vets have about their time in the military only the most scrotum brained tankie LARPers would have a problem with them instead we get Danny
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Sep 1, 2017 03:39
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GunnerJ posted:Like, what do you imagine is the actual basis for objecting to someone who (was a troop/was a cop or cop organizer) being in a socialist org? Is it that there's some metaphysical taint that gets applied to someone's soul, or is it the concern that having been a part of these systems, one might not understand why they are oppressive and bad? And that this lack of understanding will lead to lovely politics? I think volunteering for a military force that does lovely stuff is about the worst thing you can do as an average Joe. It's volunteering to kill for capitalism. What's more abominable that that? I think that parroting mainstream leftist poo poo about why troops shouldn't do that!! doesn't go nearly far enough in atoning for that.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:40
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Insanite posted:I think volunteering for a military force that does lovely stuff is about the worst thing you can do as an average Joe. It's volunteering to kill for capitalism. What's more abominable that that? We're not a church so I don't actually care about "atonement." I care about what I can count on people to do, now, regardless of what they've done.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:42
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Don't pass off anarchism as 'socialism', its one subset of socialism, and only anarchist can realistically talk about abolishing the police, instead of, like, firing most if not all current officers, then hiring different people, because the rot of racism is too deep
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Sep 1, 2017 03:43
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https://twitter.com/leonardpierce/status/903407031339667457
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Sep 1, 2017 03:45
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GunnerJ posted:We're not a church so I don't actually care about "atonement." I care about what I can count on people to do, now, regardless of what they've done. We are in agreement, then, as long as everyone agrees to strip bare and confess to their crimes against humanity
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Sep 1, 2017 03:45
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Dairy Days posted:get a load of this fart huffing highfalutin jackoff I'll huff farts whenever I fuckin want buster
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Sep 1, 2017 03:47
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Every time someone posts itt I think Danny has shown his rear end again and I'm always disappointed
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Sep 1, 2017 04:02
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Real talk vs if you want some reading conquest of bread aka the bread book and anarchist faq (which I think was cowritten by Minor Threat/Fugazi front man Ian Mackaye) are good intro read lenin instead
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Sep 1, 2017 04:18
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R. Guyovich posted:read lenin instead https://twitter.com/dril/status/922321981
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Sep 1, 2017 04:25
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Insanite posted:I think volunteering for a military force that does lovely stuff is about the worst thing you can do as an average Joe. It's volunteering to kill for capitalism. What's more abominable that that? you can't hold it against someone that they haven't always understood capitalism. it seems to me that a lot of veterans didn't understand what they were getting into or at least not the full implications of it. if they were active duty and trying to advocate anti capitalism, it'd be a different situation altogether
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Sep 1, 2017 04:26
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R. Guyovich posted:read lenin instead read danny
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Sep 1, 2017 04:28
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ok. keep independently coming to the same conclusions the bolsheviks did over a century ago, then
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Sep 1, 2017 04:31
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shitsheviks
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Sep 1, 2017 04:33
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Sep 1, 2017 04:38
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oh hey a book ill give a poo poo about
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Sep 1, 2017 04:45
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troops good
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Sep 1, 2017 04:56
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Insanite posted:True, the troops have fought for many leftist causes in America before, such as I'm just one man and my anecdotes but I joined the military because I had no other options. That doesn't mean I support the imperialist state
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Sep 1, 2017 05:59
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