[Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

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Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

The poet Robert Frost?

run you pidgeons!

# ? Apr 22, 2024 14:49

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 10:37

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

code:

https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/status/1787281107391533445

quote:

Today I learned about this elaborate eulogy carved into stone of a 1st c Roman husband for his wife (identity uncertain, traditionally referred to as "Turia")

It's the longest personal document of this kind. He loved her a lot, they were married for 40 years.

Highlights:

This elaborate carved eulogy challenges our expectations about Roman women. Far from these meek, defenseless creatures the husband keeps on going on about how his wife saved him (and doesn't seem to feel threatened in his masculinity for this), how she avenged her family, etc.

It begins already like this

quote:
You were orphaned suddenly before the day of our wedding when both of your parents were killed together in the solitude of the countryside. It was mainly through your efforts that the death of your parents did not go unavenged

Well, who knew a virtuous Roman woman's duties would include avenging her parents? He continues

quote:
You insistently demanded punishment and you got it, so strenuously performing your familial duty that even if we had been present, we could not have done anything more.

You have to imagine this teenager (Roman women married v young) avenging her parents, and then waiting for her fianc� (writer of the laudatio):

quote:
After you did obtain punishment of the guilty, you immediately went to the house of my mother, where you awaited my homecoming.

She then successfully litigated a dispute over her father's will, ensuring her sister and she got fair equal shares of the inheritance,

quote:
you completed the defense that you had undertaken, all on your own, of respect for your father, devotion to your sister, and loyalty to us

We learn divorce was super-common

quote:
Rare are marriages as long as ours�marriages ended by death, not cut short by divorce. It was granted to us that ours lasted into its forty- first year

-- husband then is sad it's bc she died, not he, even though he is significantly older

He then goes on to lavish praise on her: she's great at managing stuff, she is virtuous, she is religious without being superstitious, devoted to her family... he then says

quote:
I must skip over quite a number of your other kindnesses

An interesting incident (I put the full quote below) is where she goes and pleads her husband's case to reinstate him (as a senator?) and she gets beaten but she does it nonetheless, pleading his case

He expresses gratitude for her help, and says unabashedly she saved his life (no toxic Roman masculinity?)

quote:
In recognition of the greatness of all the good deeds you did on my behalf, I shall display to the eyes of all an inscription that tells how you saved my life.

Okay (you see, a very long inscription in stone). Peace is restored, these two happy Roman citizens are thinking: kids. But unfortunately, it's not happening. After a while it becomes clear the wife is not conceiving,

quote:
on that account, you mentioned the word �divorce."

But husband refuses.

quote:
I must say that I became so enraged that I lost my mind; I was so horrified at your designs that it was very hard to regain my composure...; I could never have assented to your proposal without bringing great shame upon me and unhappiness on both of us.

He concludes as follows

quote:
Thee fruits of your life will remain available to me. With the thought of your glory presenting itself, I shall strengthen my resolve; in- structed by your deeds, I shall stand up to Fortune, who has not snatched everything away from me.

But all at the end 😭😭

quote:
A natural sorrow jerks away my power of self-control. I am overwhelmed by sadness and cannot stand firm either against the grief or the fear that anguish me. Going back over my earlier troubles and fearing what the future may bring, I break down.

This laudation is such a beautiful and timeless declaration of love. Wow. I cried a bit when I read the full text. You can read it here + new analysis of who "Turia" could have been, the social context of women in Rome, etc

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/turia-9780199832354

# ? May 6, 2024 11:56

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

That is really cool.

# ? May 6, 2024 13:12

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/radhistoryguy/status/1776632874474848520?t=FNjWD-7vy29e6bb5C2s0Vg&s=19

It was hard to take the historical accuracy of this game seriously after Henry makes it to the next castle over and warms them of the attack, and the castellans wife or whoever takes the time to seek Henry out to see how he's getting on and to tell him what a brave boy he is.

1) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman being alone in a room with any adult male who isn't her husband, a blood relative, or her confessor.
2) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman giving a poo poo about how an unemployed trainee blacksmith is dealing with the destruction of his village.

# ? May 6, 2024 13:33

Kanthulhu: Apr 8, 2009; NO ONE SPOIL GAME OF THRONES FOR ME!

IF SOMEONE TELLS ME THAT OBERYN MARTELL AND THE MOUNTAIN DIE THIS SEASON, I'M GOING TO BE PISSED.

BUT NOT HALF AS PISSED AS I'D BE IF SOMEONE WERE TO SPOIL VARYS KILLING A LANISTER!!!

(Dany shits in a field)

What game?

# ? May 6, 2024 16:04

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Pistol_Pete posted:

It was hard to take the historical accuracy of this game seriously after Henry makes it to the next castle over and warms them of the attack, and the castellans wife or whoever takes the time to seek Henry out to see how he's getting on and to tell him what a brave boy he is.

1) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman being alone in a room with any adult male who isn't her husband, a blood relative, or her confessor.
2) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman giving a poo poo about how an unemployed trainee blacksmith is dealing with the destruction of his village.

through that whole exchange I was worried that someone was going to break in and the player-character would get lynched or something for the temerity of sharing a room alone with a noblewoman.

Kanthulhu posted:

What game?

Kingdom Come: Deliverance

# ? May 6, 2024 16:11

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

gradenko_2000 posted:

code:

https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/status/1787281107391533445

most husbands just wrote: lanam fecit (she made the wool) as high praise of their dead wives.

# ? May 6, 2024 17:39

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

KC:D is a great game and everyone should play it, but yeah it's very bizarre how the conservative dudes (including the lead developer) tried to latch onto it as this ultra realistic simulation of pre-modern Europe (because there are no black people). Among other things, this is a game that famously involves lock picking a horses' anus.

The game really is great though, the recreation of the area is stunningly well done, Hans is a loving champ, and I will never forget that first big quest with local sheriff-type Bernard: he tells you to go question some villagers about a crime and report back, and you get a lead on some bandits in the woods. Naturally you go fight the bandits because this is a video game; the fight is pretty difficult because Henry is pretty useless at this point, and there's lots of people complaining online about how they can't beat the bandits. If you do beat the bandits Bernard then berates you for being stupid enough to try and fight a bunch of bandits in the woods rather than just telling him and letting him and his Men-at-arms deal with them (if you do report back they effortlessly defeat the bandits).

# ? May 6, 2024 18:19

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Pistol_Pete posted:

It was hard to take the historical accuracy of this game seriously after Henry makes it to the next castle over and warms them of the attack, and the castellans wife or whoever takes the time to seek Henry out to see how he's getting on and to tell him what a brave boy he is.

1) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman being alone in a room with any adult male who isn't her husband, a blood relative, or her confessor.
2) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman giving a poo poo about how an unemployed trainee blacksmith is dealing with the destruction of his village.

She wants to gently caress him, that's not that unrealistic

She slips in in the middle of the night and iirc mentions that they can't be seen together

# ? May 6, 2024 18:39

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

They would be right to be suspicious and punish Heinrich, in light of where the game ultimately goes with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGhqtR7Xuo

# ? May 6, 2024 18:55

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

It would be fun if the sequel involves Divish sending hit squads after you

# ? May 6, 2024 21:49

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

I don't personally ascribe to the philosophy of combating whinging about historical accuracy by asserting that history should be presented as more boring, actually

# ? May 6, 2024 21:58

Mr. Sharps: Jul 30, 2006; The only true law is that which leads to freedom. There is no other.

Cup Runneth Over posted:

I don't personally ascribe to the philosophy of combating whinging about historical accuracy by asserting that history should be presented as more boring, actually

sounds like pentiment is for you then >:]

# ? May 7, 2024 00:21

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Cup Runneth Over posted:

I don't personally ascribe to the philosophy of combating whinging about historical accuracy by asserting that history should be presented as more boring, actually

Good news, the whinging about KC:D is that KC:D presents history as more boring than it actually was.

Also,

Mr. Sharps posted:

sounds like pentiment is for you then >:]

# ? May 7, 2024 02:25

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Tulip posted:

Good news, the whinging about KC:D is that KC:D presents history as more boring than it actually was.

Yes, that's the whinging about historical accuracy I'm referring to.

This is combating it, by asserting that history should be presented as more boring than that, actually:

Pistol_Pete posted:

It was hard to take the historical accuracy of this game seriously after Henry makes it to the next castle over and warms them of the attack, and the castellans wife or whoever takes the time to seek Henry out to see how he's getting on and to tell him what a brave boy he is.

1) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman being alone in a room with any adult male who isn't her husband, a blood relative, or her confessor.
2) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman giving a poo poo about how an unemployed trainee blacksmith is dealing with the destruction of his village.

# ? May 7, 2024 04:58

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

i think that post is less arguing that history should be presented as more boring and more arguing that the game shouldn't use historical accuracy as a marketing bullet point when it isn't very.

# ? May 7, 2024 05:09

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Ghostlight posted:

i think that post is less arguing that history should be presented as more boring and more arguing that the game shouldn't use historical accuracy as a marketing bullet point when it isn't very.

Yes, and it's doing that by claiming that to be really historically accurate you'd have to be boring. I don't think that's a good way to argue that.

# ? May 7, 2024 05:34

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Ancient people were just people. They did all the weird stuff that people do. There were probably black people in eastern Europe, and there were probably noble ladies that fooled around with commoners. Ceding ground to associating historical accuracy with sterility and tedium is a disservice to the grand tapestry of history.

And, you know, even if there somehow weren't, for hundreds of years-- you can't really prove that based on some texts about how people were "supposed" to act or where they were "supposed" to be, so it really doesn't matter. Wedge your creativity right into the swiss cheese of the historical record.

# ? May 7, 2024 05:39

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

i just think you're reading a lot into that post which is only present subjectively in the statements that these two events in the game struck the poster as significantly historically inaccurate in a game whose large selling point was being a historically accurate skyrim with no redguards.

Ghostlight has issued a correction as of 06:10 on May 7, 2024

# ? May 7, 2024 06:06

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Ok let me lay it out this way for you

An older noble blooded woman sneaks into Henry's bedroom to flirt with him: ✅ historically accurate
Henry learns magic and starts flinging lightning bolts at the Cumans: ❌ not historically accurate
A black person comes to Bohemia: ✅ historically accurate
Bohemia is invaded by the Moors: ❌ not historically accurate

That's not to say that either of those things wouldn't make for an awesome story, just that we know for sure they didn't happen, and historical fiction is all about writing stuff that's plausible (which is what makes it fiction instead of just a biography).

Suggesting either of those isn't historically accurate strikes me as ceding ground to the idea that historically accurate = bad, boring when history should be fun and interesting. They aren't significantly historically inaccurate. They aren't how noblewomen were supposed to behave, but who gives a gently caress about that? People behave in ways they aren't supposed to all the time.

Cup Runneth Over has issued a correction as of 06:17 on May 7, 2024

# ? May 7, 2024 06:12

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Cup Runneth Over posted:

I don't see how it's much different from the modern Squad Leader military position. If your SL dies, you'll probably take orders from the next closest SL until you return to base. I imagine it worked the same way; the idea that you would have to rely on your company commander for orders when there's 79 other people of equal rank to your towarzysze around is silly.

A squad leader neither recruits or pays their squad. What is described seems like an entirely feudal relationship, with no direct obligations of pay and service between the larger organization and the troopers .

Pistol_Pete posted:

It was hard to take the historical accuracy of this game seriously after Henry makes it to the next castle over and warms them of the attack, and the castellans wife or whoever takes the time to seek Henry out to see how he's getting on and to tell him what a brave boy he is.

1) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman being alone in a room with any adult male who isn't her husband, a blood relative, or her confessor.
2) Lol at the idea of a noblewoman giving a poo poo about how an unemployed trainee blacksmith is dealing with the destruction of his village.

What makes you think 1 is true? Pretty sure it's a fiction. As far as 2, various people feel different about different things, it is silly to think all people of a particular class are a monolith.

quote:

Women and Gender in Medieval Europe: an Encyclopedia

Noble Women

Never deemed fully equal to men and still expected to behave largely as any other women when they did exercise authority over others, noble women�s social rank and access, as wives and mothers, to male lords and their heirs outweighed any ideological disabilities imposed by their female gender when circumstances dictated that they should act in traditionally ��male�� domains. In other words, noble birth sufficed to make any noble woman a potential player in high politics, affairs of fiefs and vassals, and the management of landed estates, and those activities, woven into the texture of a society in which ��domestic�� household management included what today would be considered affairs of official government and ��public�� politics, were natural extensions, not transgressions, of noble women�s traditionally ��feminine�� social roles.

When they entered such ��public�� arenas, most often as regents for absent husbands or minor heirs, their powers ran the gamut of the feudal, judicial, economic, and political prerogatives of any medieval lord.Noble women received and swore homage, controlled fiefs, oversaw the maintenance and garrisoning of castles, and ordered knights to fight, while many supervised the management of seigneurial estates. The higher-ranking among them presided over courts that settled disputes, punished lawbreakers, defined provincial custom and authorized the undertakings of other people in their domains. They negotiated treaties with neighboring lay and ecclesiastical lords, granted liberties to burghers and villagers, and founded and regulated fairs, while some even controlled coinage.
...
Noble women also played prominent roles in religious-cultural domains, primarily as patrons of art, literature, religious communities, and holy men. In pre-university days, even lay women could be highly learned in Latin literary culture, trained by household tutors or in monastic communities alongside young girls who ultimately took vows.

# ? May 7, 2024 06:31

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Weka posted:

A squad leader neither recruits or pays their squad. What is described seems like an entirely feudal relationship, with no direct obligations of pay and service between the larger organization and the troopers .

Well yeah, I didn't mean they were similar in all facets, just in combat responsibilities. Your SL might not have recruited or be paying you, but you probably aren't going to think about who's paying you when you are actively in life-or-death combat. You aren't going to go to your company commander for your next orders, you are going to go to the next person of closest rank to the person who was previously giving you orders.

Weka posted:

What makes you think 1 is true? Pretty sure it's a fiction. As far as 2, various people feel different about different things, it is silly to think all people of a particular class are a monolith.

Also a great point! Thank you.

# ? May 7, 2024 07:37

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

Regarding the second point, a person with dark skin who came to Bohemia wouldn't be black in any way we would recognize. That's a social construction, not a universal effect of pigmentation. Depicting someone like that would be as alien and unfamiliar to contemporary American audiences as not depicting them.

Again, we have the travelogues of Arab and Persian travellers to Europe around this period, and later Central Asian, Chinese as well as some Africans after around 1460, and their travels and visits to courts are really interesting, but also pretty far removed from some Czech blacksmith. The new game is set at one of Europe's centres for silver production, which would be far more likely to attract people from distant lands.

# ? May 7, 2024 13:18

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

I'm not sure that a modern Black person would be bothered by a Persian merchant not acting "American Black," they probably just want to see someone that physically looks like them in the videogames they play. I don't find Henry or other characters alien and unfamiliar because they're from a different, much older culture.

# ? May 7, 2024 15:35

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018; Can't post for 18 hours!

is there a good history of zoroastrianism out there?

# ? May 7, 2024 15:48

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

Cup Runneth Over posted:

I'm not sure that a modern Black person would be bothered by a Persian merchant not acting "American Black," they probably just want to see someone that physically looks like them in the videogames they play.

I keep reading this and it's never landed for me. Do any of you look like Duke Nukem or Mario?

# ? May 7, 2024 15:56

HerraS: Apr 15, 2012; Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.

Sounds like something a white rear end cracker would ask

# ? May 7, 2024 16:02

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

This is Italian erasure.

# ? May 7, 2024 16:09

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

This is Italian erasure.

weird mario pic

# ? May 7, 2024 16:48

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

I keep reading this and it's never landed for me. Do any of you look like Duke Nukem or Mario?

yes. both of them

# ? May 7, 2024 16:58

Pepe Silvia Browne: Jan 1, 2007

Real hurthling! posted:

weird mario pic

why he shirt blue

# ? May 7, 2024 17:00

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

ai makes a lot of weird decisions but this time, look in his armpits....is that the bottom of a mullet? very inspired

# ? May 7, 2024 17:15

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

I keep reading this and it's never landed for me. Do any of you look like Duke Nukem or Mario?

i dunno i've heard a bunch of people say that they liked that xyz character represented them in some way

its just hard to imagine coz as a white guy everything is already representing me and if its not its woke devilry ruining my videogames/history/movies etc

# ? May 7, 2024 17:31

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

HerraS posted:

Sounds like something a white rear end cracker would ask

# ? May 7, 2024 21:50

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Cup Runneth Over posted:

Well yeah, I didn't mean they were similar in all facets, just in combat responsibilities. Your SL might not have recruited or be paying you, but you probably aren't going to think about who's paying you when you are actively in life-or-death combat. You aren't going to go to your company commander for your next orders, you are going to go to the next person of closest rank to the person who was previously giving you orders.

Maybe you will run away instead of risk your life if the guy paying you dies.

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

I keep reading this and it's never landed for me. Do any of you look like Duke Nukem or Mario?

I used to have a pretty sweet crew cut

# ? May 8, 2024 13:59

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Communist Thoughts posted:

i dunno i've heard a bunch of people say that they liked that xyz character represented them in some way

its just hard to imagine coz as a white guy everything is already representing me and if its not its woke devilry ruining my videogames/history/movies etc

I've heard people say they like Piccolo simply because he does not look white lol

# ? May 8, 2024 17:09

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Piccolo is black

# ? May 8, 2024 17:43

Jezza of OZPOS: Mar 21, 2018; GET LOSE❌🗺️, YOUS CAN'T COMPARE😤 WITH ME 💪POWERS🇦🇺

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Piccolo is black

# ? May 8, 2024 22:21

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Weka posted:

Maybe you will run away instead of risk your life if the guy paying you dies.

Quite possibly, but that wasn't the argument, the argument was that it was poorly organized because the only person they had left to take orders from at that point would be the company commander. I disagree; but if they fought their way out they probably would disband after making it to safety.

# ? May 8, 2024 23:22

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 10:37

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/StilichoReads/status/1788404861010170252?t=A6_UQ0CB4HaaGHk9ERJoTQ&s=19

# ? May 9, 2024 05:59

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

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