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Orcs and Ostriches posted:If the Xaela tried to summon Nhaama into the steppe, we'd very well be putting that truth to the test. Point of order: The Brotherhood of Ash explicitly rejects Ifrit, and the Nine's devotion to finding Ayatlan actually is ultimately shown to be a hollow pursuit given, y'know, Ixal origins. But yeah I meant less in the sense of primal-ness and more in a broader social and cultural sense Xaela religion is just accepted by most of the cast (and narrative) as, at least locally, "possibly true."
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Oct 4, 2021 21:05
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Jetrauben posted:Point of order: The Brotherhood of Ash explicitly rejects Ifrit, and the Nine's devotion to finding Ayatlan actually is ultimately shown to be a hollow pursuit given, y'know, Ixal origins. The cast doesn't put any faith in the Xaela religion being any more true than any of the others. But they never disregard any other religion or mythology before that - just their obviously wrong primal incantations.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:15
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The issue with summoning a primal of your god is the first part, not the second. Seiryu (who I think was possibly going to be Rhalgr, or at least that was Ilberd's plan), Enkidu, and our rightful liege-lord Moggle Mog were in no way divine gods of any kind, and Hraesvelgr makes it explicitly clear that that poo poo wasn't Shiva at all, because he has Shiva's soul right there with him.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:49
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Nessus posted:Seiryu (who I think was possibly going to be Rhalgr, or at least that was Ilberd's plan), Enkidu, and our rightful liege-lord Moggle Mog were in no way divine gods of any kind, and Hraesvelgr makes it explicitly clear that that poo poo wasn't Shiva at all, because he has Shiva's soul right there with him. I think you mean Shinryu. Ilberd wanted people to pray for Rhalgr as a ruse and to build support with his Ala Mhigan followers, but he didn't care. He wanted devastation on the level of a calamity, and on that he got a dragon rivalling Bahamut.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:00
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Jetrauben posted:Point of order: The Brotherhood of Ash explicitly rejects Ifrit, and the Nine's devotion to finding Ayatlan actually is ultimately shown to be a hollow pursuit given, y'know, Ixal origins. The Brotherhood of Ash believe in Ifrit as part of the normal Amalj'aa pantheon, where he's the god of death. They don't believe in the divinity of the primal Ifrit that the cultists in Thanalan have summoned. The Nina eventually find out that Ayatlan is just Azys Lla, but decide to keep searching for their paradise in the sky anyway. And, really, they weren't wrong that they came from a floating continent, that was completely accurate, just that it was a paradise where they could in peace, and not an abandoned laboratory filled with the leftovers of horrible experiments.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:06
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When you think about it, telling people not to summon a weapon of mass destruction in the form of their god of choice is the same as being a missionary
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Oct 4, 2021 22:39
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thetoughestbean posted:When you think about it, telling people not to summon a weapon of mass destruction in the form of their god of choice is the same as being a missionary That's not what I said, I was just specifically observing that the choice of line - not "there's nothing wrong with giving thanks to Father Titan, but summoning his false image is different" but rather specifically framing the non-anthropomorphized "the Earth that bore you" that Alisaie presumably believes in as acceptable when contrasted to "summoning" - was just accidentally awkward in that it continues to basically contrast the Kobolds' own explicit beliefs with a generic externally-acceptable belief. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 22:42
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Begemot posted:The Brotherhood of Ash believe in Ifrit as part of the normal Amalj'aa pantheon, where he's the god of death. They don't believe in the divinity of the primal Ifrit that the cultists in Thanalan have summoned. Let's just give that floating continent in the Endwalker concept art to the Ixal. Going by the most likely candidates for who that place might belong to, the Ixal are WAY better stewards than basically every option.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:44
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Primals are to Supply Side Jesus as actual deities are to Regular Jesus.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:51
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Jetrauben posted:Like I said, it's kinda telling that even Alisaie's effort to be good-faith tolerant amounts to an inability to meet kobold faith on their own terms and instead tells them they respect kobold worship as long as kobold worship looks exactly like her own culture's view of a non-anthopomorphized natural process. Regular normal day-to-day Titan worship seems highly unlikely to involve periodic get-togethers to do rituals to manifest The Lord of the Crags in the rocky flesh. The summoning of the various gods in corporeal form is, while real cool and effective as a weapon and all that, probably not something that has long traditions within kobold/sahagin/amalj'aa/etc religious ritual. This is new knowledge inserted by outsiders that is, if you realize the origins of it, kind of awful and blasphemous, frankly. They don't keep doing it because that's how it's always been done, gotta go to church on Sunday and gotta summon up some Titan, they do it because they are now compelled to do so. Also, the Twelve are sure as gently caress anthorpomorphized, and were even once threatened with being summoned that time with the youth from Little Ala Mhigo and Rhalgr. Yes, this is a dangling plot point, and whatever the real deal with the Twelve is certainly looking to us like they weren't gods but probably old tales of old heroes.... but most of Eorzea unironically worships them as gods-shaped-like-people. Orcs and Ostriches posted:If the Xaela tried to summon Nhaama into the steppe, we'd very well be putting that truth to the test. Also, yeah, this.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:59
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FeatherFloat posted:Regular normal day-to-day Titan worship seems highly unlikely to involve periodic get-togethers to do rituals to manifest The Lord of the Crags in the rocky flesh. The summoning of the various gods in corporeal form is, while real cool and effective as a weapon and all that, probably not something that has long traditions within kobold/sahagin/amalj'aa/etc religious ritual. This is new knowledge inserted by outsiders that is, if you realize the origins of it, kind of awful and blasphemous, frankly. They don't keep doing it because that's how it's always been done, gotta go to church on Sunday and gotta summon up some Titan, they do it because they are now compelled to do so. I get that, I'm specifically referring only to the rhetoric used in her statement.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:04
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I just wanna kill the twelve
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Oct 4, 2021 23:06
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Titan worship is actually, to my knowledge, one of the only beast tribes that we don't know non-zealot views of. We don't really know what a regular-rear end kobold thinks about Titan, other than not wanting to be sacrificed to him.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:11
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Jetrauben posted:I get that, I'm specifically referring only to the rhetoric used in her statement. While I get that the exact wording of what Alisae says in that moment can be read uncharitably and in a way that mirrors real-life missionary bullshit, given all of that poo poo I just typed, in my mind it doesn't actually imply that the only good kind of Titan worship is the kind that doesn't bother the Limsans.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:13
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thetoughestbean posted:There’s a lot of people who antagonize others about the authenticity of their culture’s deities. We’re part of a group whose mission statement is one half telling people that those powerful creations aren’t actually gods. There’s also doctrinal disputes, things like any incarnation of Lakshmi being viewed as inherently flawed and therefore illegitimate by half of her worshippers. There’s people like Erik, too, who agree that the phenomenon of things like chakras happen but disagree on giving it any spiritual significance. Yeah but a ton of it is less "it is wrong to have faith and there is no god" and more "y'all getting played." The Ishgardian heretics having faith in something isn't wrong, it's just unfortunate that they're being played. Yeah there's religious conflict in XIV but most of it is just us vs them due to circumstances than because of religious intolerance. Sri Lakshmi and the Ananta are a good example. Prior to the Garleans straight up driving one faction into a corner to the point where they summoned a primal which then tempered their leadership, the two Ananta tribes were willing to put aside their disagreements on Sri Lakhsmi (and whatever else) because despite the tension between them, there wasn't enough interest to kill each other. But then the Qaylana go full evangelizing zealot on the Vira and they're left with no choice but to fight. The religious differences in how the tribes see Sri Lakshmi is more to reassure you that you're not going to offend the Vira by killing the primal than a denial of any and all Lakshmi worship different from theirs. Most primal-summoning groups are extremists, either by dint of being driven to circumstances where they would summon one and/or what the tempering does to them. But the Syndicate didn't drive the Amalj'aa out of Ul'dah for their religion (although it was a convenient difference), it was for greed. And then when things got worse for groups of Amalj'aa, the ones most driven into a corner were tricked into using their faith to fuel a lie. Ifrit the primal doesn't suddenly make the rest of the Amalj'aa faith false. Edit: gently caress, y'all were busy posting while I was busy typing. Anyway the tl;dr is that tolerant people/societies overlook their differences in the interest of cooperation/profit/what have you. Being a dick about someone else's faith/religion when they're not being a dick about it is just asking for trouble. And just because a lot of people are getting played by the Ascians into using their faith to fuel a massive con doesn't mean it was wrong for them to believe. Argas fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 23:23
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Speaking of Primals, can someone confirm that the reason Bahamut looks so different compared to his siblings is because he's Summoned, and OG Bahamut looked more like Tiamat, Nidhogg and Hrasvalgr?
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Oct 5, 2021 00:07
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SirPhoebos posted:Speaking of Primals, can someone confirm that the reason Bahamut looks so different compared to his siblings is because he's Summoned, and OG Bahamut looked more like Tiamat, Nidhogg and Hrasvalgr? Not only unclear, but unlikely. Primal Bahamut was summoned by Bahamut's sister, do you really think she would've messed up basic proportions? The only evidence suggesting this might be the case is that there's official art for something (not sure what, maybe one of those offshoot 'themed selection' soundtracks) where Bahamut is a small part of a group with the dragons, and his head looks like it might be a kinda different shape.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:14
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SirPhoebos posted:Speaking of Primals, can someone confirm that the reason Bahamut looks so different compared to his siblings is because he's Summoned, and OG Bahamut looked more like Tiamat, Nidhogg and Hrasvalgr? Probably. There's a shot in the EE1 that has Midgarsormr and his brood, and while it's not a clear shot of Bahamut, he's shaped far more like his siblings.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:18
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Cleretic posted:Not only unclear, but unlikely. Primal Bahamut was summoned by Bahamut's sister, do you really think she would've messed up basic proportions? I don't think it's confirmed anywhere but I disagree if only because it wouldn't make any sense at all if Primals had to closely match the appearance of whatever the original being that summoned them was. It makes sense that Primal Bahamut wouldn't have his natural form because Tiamat's mind was wracked with grief and rage when she summoned him, so the Bahamut produced was altered to be more aggressive and outright demonic in appearance. It also doesn't make any sense for other primals like Shiva and Thordan - I doubt Saint Shiva was an ice pop, nor do I think the original King Thordan was 20 feet tall.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:18
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Chillgamesh posted:I don't think it's confirmed anywhere but I disagree if only because it wouldn't make any sense at all if Primals had to closely match the appearance of whatever the original being that summoned them was. It makes sense that Primal Bahamut wouldn't have his natural form because Tiamat's mind was wracked with grief and rage when she summoned him, so the Bahamut produced was altered to be more aggressive and outright demonic in appearance. Yeah, because Ysayle's image of Shiva is a multiple-times-distorted deity of icy vengeance, and Thordan's image of Older Thordan was a divine god-king. They're picturing larger-than-life figures based on historical people they never knew, of course they'd picture them bigger and grander. Tiamat was summoning her recently dead brother, who she knew as an equal. For this theory to make sense, her image of him would ha be so distorted so as to forget basic anatomy, which doesn't even track with the examples you gave; remember that Shiva and Thordan are, size aside, shaped like normal-rear end people, because their summoners still knew that part. Bahamut was more than likely just naturally barrel-chested.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:28
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I take every opportunity to point out the difference between kobold-summoned Titan and WoL-summoned Titan. Kobold titan actually has a little kobold's face, although you only realize this after you finally see the Mord in Shadowbringers. 
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Oct 5, 2021 00:29
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Here's the image in question. None of them at all match primal Bahamut's appearance. They're all long and slender, and his facial horns don't match at all. He's the one in the middle left, gold coloured, basically looking Midgarsormr in the face. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 5, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 00:33
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Here's the image in question. Tiamat led the summoning and their brood helped summon him. What were they thinking of???
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Oct 5, 2021 00:35
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Regy Rusty posted:I just wanna kill the twelve Hopefully that’s the Alliance Raids
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Oct 5, 2021 00:37
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thetoughestbean posted:Tiamat led the summoning and their brood helped summon him. What were they thinking of??? If I had to guess, primal summoning in its very form is inaccurate. The Ancients who invented the process were immensely powerful and gifted with creation abilities. Tiamat and the dragons by all estimates should be unsundered and par to the Ancients, but if the process itself is designed to shove out a hollow approximation greatly influenced by the summoner's needs and emotions, you're never gonna get a reasonable copy. Hell, the WoL was part of 8 different summonings, and they were wild.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:40
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Ferrinus posted:I take every opportunity to point out the difference between kobold-summoned Titan and WoL-summoned Titan. Kobold titan actually has a little kobold's face, although you only realize this after you finally see the Mord in Shadowbringers.  I'd say the only thing you can't really appreciate from the ARR models alone is that they have the same hair.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:58
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Cleretic posted:Tiamat was summoning her recently dead brother, who she knew as an equal. Creation/Summoning magic is extremely delicate and fickle, it's not just a matter of an image of your head. Her emotional state would have warped the product of her spell.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:16
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Yeah, and it's also of course worth noting that aren't dragon's various forms all situationally-caused metamorphoses rather than like an intrinsic phenotype?
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Oct 5, 2021 01:36
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Chillgamesh posted:Creation/Summoning magic is extremely delicate and fickle, it's not just a matter of an image of your head. Her emotional state would have warped the product of her spell. I believe Tiamat acknowledges that she knew immediately the twisted shade she summoned was not the real Bahamut.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:41
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Speaking of summons, it'd be cool if there will Amaurotine Guardian Forces still around presently in those big crystals or in some other system/magic. I wonder if they'd need faith and followers to sustain themselves, or if it's just not necessary for a creation imbued with power from the greatly more powerful ancients. It'd be interesting to know if there is any significant differences between a GF and the sundered's primals.
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Oct 5, 2021 02:05
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Tekne posted:Speaking of summons, it'd be cool if there will Amaurotine Guardian Forces still around presently in those big crystals or in some other system/magic. I wonder if they'd need faith and followers to sustain themselves, or if it's just not necessary for a creation imbued with power from the greatly more powerful ancients. It'd be interesting to know if there is any significant differences between a GF and the sundered's primals. Isn't the problem less mere sustenance per se and more that most primals are rapacious in their appetites for both souls and more aether? We have "stable" aetheric entities like fairies and carbuncles, or ghosts and certain elementals? But it did seem to depict Amaurot as basically being post-scarcity as a result of creation magic.
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Oct 5, 2021 02:12
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Jetrauben posted:Isn't the problem less mere sustenance per se and more that most primals are rapacious in their appetites for both souls and more aether? We have "stable" aetheric entities like fairies and carbuncles, or ghosts and certain elementals?
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Oct 5, 2021 03:00
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Here's the image in question. Honestly, I could see this being the Bahamut we know anatomically, because it's focusing on the reverse shot of how we normally see Bahamut. Our normal look at him is very front-on and very chest-focused, but here we're just seeing him from the shoulders up, from behind. The horns, though, that's interesting. Because I'm now looking at pictures of primal Bahamut, and I'm realizing that on the real-deal one (not Bahamut Prime), those are actually very clearly Allagan tech. In the Binding Coils especially you can see them in gold with very Allagan neon teal patterns. The same stuff is clear in the 'Dalamud opens' cutscene, too, but the colors are washed out by all the fire. So I think we're slipping up in the wrong direction: it's not that Primal Bahamut, when summoned, was different to Real Bahamut. It was that by the time we got to him, Primal Bahamut had been mutilated.
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Oct 5, 2021 03:27
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All this discussion is why I like eikon over primal, it's so much more evocative and gets right to what they are.
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Oct 5, 2021 04:33
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Repost from the main thread:Onean posted:Pyromancer (someone who was big into WoW's lore) just put up a video about his conclusions and wonderings for the overall story up to 3.1. He also mentions the point of Alexander's story. So, spoilers for all of that.
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Oct 5, 2021 16:52
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The big leaks, as also linked in the main thread. Sage White Mage Scholar Astrologian Paladin Warrior Dark Knight Gunbreaker Bard 84 trait Bard 90 ability Black Mage 86 ability Black Mage ? ability Reaper 90 ability Ninja 82 ability Monk ? ability Another Monk ? ability Hogama fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Oct 6, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 23:09
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Even the leakers can't be bothered to care about Bard
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Oct 5, 2021 23:11
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Sage is gonna be APM as gently caress, huh? You can't really sit in Eukrasia, but you need to dip in to keep up your DoT, to put up shields, etc. I'm excited. 
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Oct 5, 2021 23:15
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Holy poo poo Bard got Divination
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Oct 6, 2021 00:20
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I refuse to look at the leaks (but don't particularly care if I get spoiled anyway), so I have no idea what the gently caress this means and it's hilarious
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Oct 6, 2021 00:28
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