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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. On the other hand, making status effects useful is a HUGE advantage for the FF13 combat system, as that means that whole swaths of abilities aren't utterly useless, which they were in basically every prior game (FFXII had some exceptions, but not enough to justify status abilities, and not enough to justify anything outside of Attack, Attack, or Attack).
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Jan 27, 2013 10:28
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Azure_Horizon posted:On the other hand, making status effects useful is a HUGE advantage for the FF13 combat system, as that means that whole swaths of abilities aren't utterly useless, which they were in basically every prior game (FFXII had some exceptions, but not enough to justify status abilities, and not enough to justify anything outside of Attack, Attack, or Attack). Except, unless you were controlling the saboteur, didn't the AI just spam whatever debuffs, rather than giving you all sorts of great options? And I disagree about XII- unless you were overleveled, buffs and debuffs were very important. Unless you're talking about for scrub enemies, in which case they died too quickly to bother.
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Jan 27, 2013 10:40
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Schwartzcough posted:Except, unless you were controlling the saboteur, didn't the AI just spam whatever debuffs, rather than giving you all sorts of great options? It wouldn't spam the debuffs it had already applied or that you knew the boss was immune to. It wouldn't go straight to poison, so you'd want to do that yourself in the Orphan fight, but other than that the Saboteur AI was pretty smart. It's the synergist/medic AI you might have to take control of in a pinch.
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Jan 27, 2013 10:42
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Schwartzcough posted:Except, unless you were controlling the saboteur, didn't the AI just spam whatever debuffs, rather than giving you all sorts of great options? Pretty brilliant AI, in my opinion.
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Jan 27, 2013 10:54
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I can just as easily say that FFVI is braindead as gently caress too See, while I agree with your post in that I think 13's combat system is okay (in fact one of its biggest issues is that it takes like 30 hours or something to pull the training wheels off that system and let you play with it), this is a silly counterargument. FF6 came out 18 years ago, more than 15 years before FF13. FF6 is one of my favorite games of all time, but it also has much simpler core mechanics, poorly-balanced characters/stats/abilities, numerous bugs that further break the game mechanics (SFAM/SNES anyway), and eventually becomes far too easy. The Final Fantasy mainseries spans five console generations and more than two decades. It's entirely justifiable to expect the series to positively iterate and become better and more polished over time, and saying "well FF (insert prior game here) was also simple or imbalanced or stupid" is a silly argument. I loved FF12 and don't regret buying 13 on launch day even though I found it disappointing, but I still look at the combat systems and mechanics in those games and compare them unfavorably to 10 and 10-2; that's a bad sign. It's also unflattering to 13 that despite having state-of-the-art visuals, reams of voiced dialogue, and characters with actual facial expressions I found its story muddled and its themes less compelling than those of the SNES games. I think it's entirely fair to suggest that the series has been in a qualitative decline for a while, even if FF13 is a better game than FF4 or whatever, because like... it should be.
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Jan 27, 2013 11:46
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In FF5 do you have to master a job to get the passives as a Freelancer? Or is just getting the skill good enough? Also what the gently caress I can't stop grinding the Objet d'Artes in the basement of Castle Bal. I'm trying to get everyone a decent job mastery for each main stat, and maybe Dual Wield for my main attackers.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:08
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You have to master the jobs, so you aren't likely to get more than a couple for each character without doing that kind of grinding. Freelancer also inherits the best base stats of jobs you've mastered, so there's more of a point to mastering jobs like Warrior and Thief that have few powerful passives than you might initially expect. EDIT: Oh hey you already said something about stats nm
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Jan 27, 2013 12:11
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Crimson Harvest posted:Also what the gently caress I can't stop grinding the Objet d'Artes in the basement of Castle Bal. Because it's fast (if you have Level 5 Death), profitable, and the best source of AP per unit of time before Movers. The anti-grinding contingent will probably rebut this somehow.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:34
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It's still kind of baffling that the "it plays itself" assertion didn't die after FFXII was released. Did people completely miss the entire function of the gambit system? Maybe they took it so literally that they just steered the game in a slackjawed daze for hundreds of hours and got so overleveled that missing it didn't matter? Or did they just play a totally different game? 
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Jan 27, 2013 13:24
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I picked up a friend's save back when the game was still new and he got far enough to get the Zodiac spear without setting any gambits. He was like "the combat in this is so annoying" because he would manually select everything
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Jan 27, 2013 13:31
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Hell, I handled my point person manually when I fought Yiazmat because it's so touch-and-go if you just use one decoy. Yeah, my damage dealers were automated, but they were also berserked, so no poo poo.
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Jan 27, 2013 13:37
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Controlling the party leader manually and turning off their gambits is actually how I played through the entire game, which worked nicely with my favorite party leader, archer/gunner Balthier. I stayed at a distance so I could always see what was going on, and focused on support magic and abilities with him while having the gruntwork of DPS and Cure spam fall on my gambit bros.
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Jan 27, 2013 13:52
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See, I thought gambits were best for grinding. You could kick back, wander around, carve through hordes of enemies, and generally have a grand old time with minimal actual effort -- which is always how grinding in RPGs goes, you just have to press fewer buttons here, and it actually rewards you for going at it for as long as you can. Certain bosses, and most hunts or side stuff? oh, hell no. Those are often tests to see if you've been paying attention to what works and what doesn't. What's fun, though, is you often have the choice of whether to take the reins manually, or to see if you can put together some absurd gambit configuration that can handle it. Mazed fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 14:25
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This is only my 2nd real attempt at playing FF5. I played the Fiesta last year for my first completion (Ninja, Thief, Red Mage, Dragoon) so this time I'm trying out all the classes. Thief's passives are really great for quality of life (and no back attacks) but the actual class sucks at damage, so at first I was just working on mastering that, but an hour and a half later I'm still in the basement killing statues. Blue magic can be retarded strong, and Spellblade.
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Jan 27, 2013 15:23
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Yeah, I would say that !Blue and !Spellblade are probably in the top five active abilities. They're both fantastically good.
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Jan 27, 2013 15:50
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. Tell me which Final Fantasy status effects are useless in.  They are frequently insanely powerful and can trivialize a large number of significant enemies. Not to mention that FFXIII literally had a class dedicated to doing nothing but debuffs and encouraged you to use them as often as possible. If you were seriously going through FFXIII going "gently caress buffs/debuffs, those won't work" because you were never willing to try them then I can understand how you somehow managed to spend 20 minutes on boss fights. Every single enemy in the game is vulnerable to debuffs so if you're assuming they don't work I'm not sure what to say. Mazed posted:It's still kind of baffling that the "it plays itself" assertion didn't die after FFXII was released. The function of the gambit system was to make up for the fact that it was using a MMO-style combat system with a single player, and with an awkward interface that made controlling multiple characters at once frustrating at best. However this just highlighted that FF combat is so simple that you actually can automate it using a limited number of IF>THAN commands and defeat almost everything in the game without touching the controller. The limiting factor is that you have to unlock certain gambits (which is stupid as hell to begin with). ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 17:33
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Crimson Harvest posted:This is only my 2nd real attempt at playing FF5. I played the Fiesta last year for my first completion (Ninja, Thief, Red Mage, Dragoon) so this time I'm trying out all the classes. Thief's passives are really great for quality of life (and no back attacks) but the actual class sucks at damage, so at first I was just working on mastering that, but an hour and a half later I'm still in the basement killing statues. Blue magic can be retarded strong, and Spellblade. Ranger/Ninja/Mystic Knight are all you really need to master to completely remove the game's difficulty. Someone with blue magic to use Big Guard doesn't hurt though. ImpAtom posted:Tell me which Final Fantasy status effects are useless in. FF1 and probably 3, but 2 makes up for it because  is the ultimate magic and nothing else came close to breaking a game like it until vanish/x-zone in FF6.e: I guess FF1 has BANE working on tiamat in one of the fights, but a high level Master could one-shot everything so it's kind of a moot point.
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Jan 27, 2013 17:45
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In FF1 SLEEP is totally useful. The other debuffs were pointless though.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:17
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I don't think it's fair to cite FF1 as a great example of that since half the spells either literally do nothing or (like AMUT) do something you'd never actually want or need to do. That poo poo's busted.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:23
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Got Dimensions the other day. Mirroring other people's comments on it - a fun SNES-style RPG romp if you ignore the story, which is easy to do. How accurate is the word that I should be focusing each character on a single class, though? The rate that I'm getting JP far exceeds the rate that I'm gaining job levels, and it seems like it would make every class beyond the initial few you get useless, which sucks. I want a dragoon!
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Jan 27, 2013 18:51
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ProfessorProf posted:Got Dimensions the other day. Mirroring other people's comments on it - a fun SNES-style RPG romp if you ignore the story, which is easy to do. The only tried and true ones are the following. Firstly, somebody should be taking white mage from 0-20 in both parties. Everyone should take Red Mage to 3 ASAP though, as that gives you +20% HP which is invaluable until the end game. Ignore summoner its worthless as until end game you lack the other teams summons and by endgame you can poo poo out damage and healing that makes summoner cry with Seer/Arcanist. Don't bother with a black mage in your warriors of light party, they get access to neither the upgraded form nor the actual good endgame spells making them a bit of a waste. The optimal progression for warriors of darkness is Monk 17, Dancer 20 as this gives you the f-ability Phantom Rush (Trance+Dropkick) aka I would like to win the game now. For warriors of light get a warrior to 15 and Paladin to 6(?) for the f-ability Mighty Wall (guard+battle cry) which gives the whole party shell, protect, and attack up. Bard 14+White Mage with haste nets you Hastega so consider bard a second career for your designated white mage. You'll get more JP as you go but by end game you'll really only be able to have about 2 or 3 jobs totally mastered with some leeway for one or two others to 10. Higher levels in jobs really, really slows down the rate you get levels so as long as you're beelining a single class you'll stop outpacing your JP acquisition rate. Barudak fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 19:20
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Kyrosiris posted:The anti-grinding contingent will probably rebut this somehow.
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Jan 27, 2013 19:44
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ImpAtom posted:Tell me which Final Fantasy status effects are useless in. Endgame 11. Lemme break this poo poo down for you: Poison: Damage-over-time effect completely negligible and less preferable to Bio/Dia (which land their damage effects 100% of the time). Gives the enemy TP to charge their alliance-killing attacks when initially cast, if it even lands. Slow: Only affects enemy auto-attack speed, not TP moves; while this inhibits the enemy's TP gain to some degree, the vast majority of TP gain on part of mobs is from players attacking them. Auto-attacks are a non-threat anymore, with few exceptions (Hundred Fists, enemies with Enpetrify/Endoom effects). Paralyze: Only affects enemy auto-attacks and occasionally spellcasting. See Slow. Additionally, certain monster types have their auto-attacks considered TP moves and thus can be, somehow, effectively double immune. Silence: Back when the level cap was 75 and Thundaga IV was a threat, this was an okay spell; however, these days, any magic not named "Death" and preceded by Chainspell is largely a total non-issue unless you're severely weakened. Not only that, but due to the way enemy AI works in this game, it won't even try to cast spells while silenced and instead bust out TP attacks when it could be wasting time casting lovely spells. Silence is now an active detriment when cast on enemies in the current game state. Addle: Magic, again, is not nearly as fearsome as it was, so reduced magic accuracy is like "Yeah, okay, whatever," and given how magic resistance works, you're still probably not going to see much in the way of benefits when you get lit up by Fire V. The increased spellcasting time is not that significant either. It's only considered useful because it's not useless. Blind: Probably one of the few legitimately useful status effects at the moment, but only just barely. There's still a 20% floor on hit rate so if you're an evasion tank you're either hitting that or so close that blind doesn't matter anyway. Stun: If there's any player-applied debuff that's truly useful it's this one, for the interruption factor. Stun does not trivialize encounters so much as it is the only way to survive a number of fights (Mantids). Bind: This might be useful, if it actually worked on anything relevant. Sleep: See above. Great for trash mobs, though, and I think it might work in Legion now...? Petrify: Even on the trash mobs it does work on, it's a lovely version of Sleep. Bio/Dia: The attack/defense reduction is currently wholly useless due to how irrelevant defense as a stat is (though it's currently being fixed so these might get better use); damage-over-time effect always lands however, even if its damage output sucks, so they're used mostly to keep monsters from regenerating HP when an alliance wipes. Plague: There are only two ways to apply this effect, the TP drain is only 5/tick, and because enemy AI always busts out TP moves at certain points based on their remaining HP, it becomes much less useful the further into a fight you are. So that's what, maybe 25% of debuff spells worth using, if you're generous? It also goes to say that from the release of Abyssea to... I want to say maybe six months ago, absolutely everything you would want to use debuff spells on was highly resistant or outright immune to nearly all of them but Stun. This was "fixed" with Immunobreak, which gave resisted spells a chance to wear down that resistance and thus allow them to actually land, but it's not so much a problem that they need to land in endgame as it is they need to be useful. This has been the primary factor to the death of Red Mage as a useful Job, combined with Square's insistence that they give its good spells (or plain superior versions of them) to Scholar/White Mage/Black Mage while handing Red Mage things like loving Temper. Shaezerus fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 20:00
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Final Fantasy games have always had bad game balance and there's always a significant number of spells that barely do anything. I think one big problem is that there's always way too many spells in every game and it tends to dilute things a lot. I had always played Square RPG's growing up so when Mass Effect came out and things like damage over time actually work and debuffs actually make a difference in a fight. I mean different genres and all but if I look at the average modern Final Fantasy game compared to Mass Effect, Final Fantasy will easily have way more spells.
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Jan 27, 2013 20:13
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ImpAtom posted:Tell me which Final Fantasy status effects are useless in. The problem is that most games in the series don't tell you what status enemies are vulnerable to. Also they almost never showed a difference between a spell missing and the enemy being immune to it.
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Jan 27, 2013 20:20
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1st AD posted:I mean different genres and all but if I look at the average modern Final Fantasy game compared to Mass Effect, Final Fantasy will easily have way more spells. Part of this is that spells in most of the FF games (up until 13) are modelled the way spells are in Dungeons & Dragons, rather than a game like Diablo or Mass Effect. Basically what this means is that instead of picking a spell you like and deciding to focus on it to the exclusion of others, you're intended to replace your old spells with completely new spells and slowly phase them out as the cost to use the new ones becomes insignificant. Once you get Fire 3, there's no reason to ever cast Fire again. Something like Poison or Sleep is the same way, where you really aren't supposed to be using it in the final act of the game because it's an early spell and your Black Mage has better poo poo to do, like cast Bio or Death. FF2 actually attempted the ME style system, where it's up to the player to decide which spells they want to use and which they want to discard and they all start lovely and scale up to great levels of power. Unfortunately it's also the most insanely imbalanced and bugged-to-gently caress game in the main series, partly due to its NES release and partly due to its ambitious and bizarre systems. I don't think it's a strictly better or worse kind of system, but I would agree that Final Fantasy games are generally fairly easy unless you deliberately avoid sidequesting or upgrading your equipment and spells, and they often fall into the trap where there's no reason to do much of anything other than massive quantities of damage and healing. Baku fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 20:20
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Dr Pepper posted:The problem is that most games in the series don't tell you what status enemies are vulnerable to. Also they almost never showed a difference between a spell missing and the enemy being immune to it. This is one of the things I like about 11's magic accuracy system: there's no way to "miss" with a spell, it's instead varying tiers of resistance. Sure, a full resist is analogous to a miss, but it's not like the game up and goes "I dunno, dude; lights happened and uh  "This even goes for strictly damaging magic. You only see a 0 if you're hopelessly outclassed for the most part, full-resists are 1/8 normal damage instead. 
Shaezerus fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 20:25
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Basically, in most of the games any enemy you'd actually want to use status effects on are going to be immune to them anyway, while the ones that are vulnerable are the ones that go down easily. While there are situations where status effects can be useful, in general they're only particularly useful when they're incredibly overpowered (FF2's Toad, FF4's Slow) or they're literally broken beyond the intent of the game (FF5's Berserk through the Mix command, FF6's Vanish). At least the later FF games actually give you a reason to use status effects, which is nice.
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Jan 27, 2013 21:25
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Barudak posted:The only tried and true ones are the following. Firstly, somebody should be taking white mage from 0-20 in both parties. Everyone should take Red Mage to 3 ASAP though, as that gives you +20% HP which is invaluable until the end game. Ignore summoner its worthless as until end game you lack the other teams summons and by endgame you can poo poo out damage and healing that makes summoner cry with Seer/Arcanist. Don't bother with a black mage in your warriors of light party, they get access to neither the upgraded form nor the actual good endgame spells making them a bit of a waste. Mastering Ranger gives a multi-attack that you'll get much faster than going monk/dancer, giving you more time to master ninja and other jobs (Phantom Rush is stronger though). When I played through I made one person in each party level and master red mage, while someone else was doing white magic. When you get spell blade you can pretty much use the red mage as an MP battery to keep people fully healed after each fight, and when you master red mage they will get double cast. Having a Seer + Magus in your final party, both using double cast, owns. Throw in a Paladin with Mighty Wall (protect/shell/+atk for party) and two ninja using spread shot and you'll murder things. Zombies' Downfall posted:FF2 actually attempted the ME style system, where it's up to the player to decide which spells they want to use and which they want to discard and they all start lovely and scale up to great levels of power. Unfortunately it's also the most insanely imbalanced and bugged-to-gently caress game in the main series, partly due to its NES release and partly due to its ambitious and bizarre systems. Toad 16 still wrecks poo poo in the iOS version of FF2. I never bothered using it on the final boss(es) because in the main game my team was a wrecking ball already (and I had the blood sword), while in the postgame dungeon everyone gets ultimate weapons that put them to 99 in relevant stats and the Wild Rose casts berserk 16 when used, so you use that twice and by then everyone's hitting for insane damage and the boss is dead because Berserk/Haste, and to a lesser extend Aura, make you go from being unable to hurt something to completely destroying it. I can only imagine that taking protect/shell/barrier all to level 16 makes you invincible. Leveling agility in the iOS version is still stupid as hell though, and with 99 agility lots of enemies still went before Maria and Firion.
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Jan 27, 2013 21:36
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Evil Fluffy posted:Mastering Ranger gives a multi-attack that you'll get much faster than going monk/dancer, giving you more time to master ninja and other jobs (Phantom Rush is stronger though). It does but it requires 2 slots to equip when you go through leveling other things and you should easily be about 10 levels into monk by the time you actually have access to ranger. Its less JP overall and in the long run F-Ability>Job ability
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Jan 27, 2013 21:45
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Evil Fluffy posted:Toad 16 still wrecks poo poo in the iOS version of FF2. I never bothered using it on the final boss(es) because in the main game my team was a wrecking ball already (and I had the blood sword), while in the postgame dungeon everyone gets ultimate weapons that put them to 99 in relevant stats and the Wild Rose casts berserk 16 when used, so you use that twice and by then everyone's hitting for insane damage and the boss is dead because Berserk/Haste, and to a lesser extend Aura, make you go from being unable to hurt something to completely destroying it. I've done runs of FF2 where I specifically avoided Toad and all insta-death spells, Berserk/Haste, shields, and basically everything that breaks the game's difficulty in two. Yeah, most status spells are still useless. Stuff like Sleep/Stun takes way too long to get to a decent level and doesn't last that long, and you're better off using Blink/Shell instead. The exception is Curse, which becomes basically the only way you can do damage to many bosses. (The final boss is, of course, immune to it. The final boss can be easily neutralized, but takes forever to kill.)
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Jan 28, 2013 00:46
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Camel Pimp posted:I've done runs of FF2 where I specifically avoided Toad and all insta-death spells, Berserk/Haste, shields, and basically everything that breaks the game's difficulty in two. How on earth can you beat FF2 without shields? The mechanics are such that without dodging hits you can't gain AGI, right?
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Jan 28, 2013 01:04
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But Rocks Hurt Head posted:How on earth can you beat FF2 without shields? The mechanics are such that without dodging hits you can't gain AGI, right? You just need a high evade %. You'll still gain AGI even if your evade is around 15 or so, just very rarely. Weapons add some evade (it depends on your skill level), a couple of pieces of equipment add agility. and the main gauche makes the no-shields restriction irrelevant anyway. Now doing that barehanded... that was hell. I have played this game way too much. Camel Pimp fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 01:13
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Monks in that game are such a trap, that's what I did on Guy the only time I've ever beaten it and I ended up going back and grinding him with axe/shield later because he was getting blasted constantly. I hate FF2.
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Jan 28, 2013 01:15
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. You're right, you could safely disregard most of your arsenal in a lot of older FF games and force your way through, but you can't do that in FF13, and yet here we are in 2013 still discussing how braindead it supposedly is.
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Jan 28, 2013 01:27
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The problem with buffs and debuffs and other status effects is that their implementation is dichotomous. There's the situation where the enemy is overpowering unless you use these to level the playing field like SMT, and there's the situation where everything is more or less balanced at the start and these are there to give the player an advantage like Lost Odyssey. That's just a matter of difficulty and whether you're in the mood for one or the other. For the most part, FF just did away with that by making most enemies immune to everything but a handful of unreliable and unpredictable effects, but kept the spells kind of like a... a really sentimental attachment to a spleen, I guess. You could do a couple cute things with Haste and poo poo, but they all wore off pretty and the difference buffs made for your party was more or less negligible. It was like this for fuckin' ever. 12 and 13 did some stuff with status effects and that was probably surprising to anyone who hadn't played an SMT game or anything else where these things have a noticeable effect on battles, which I'd wager is a pretty good portion of the FF playerbase. Y'all bring up Mass Effect, and it blew my mind too how worthwhile the DoT ammo was, forget Shredder Rounds and AP Ammo when those weird status effects worked on synthetics, organics, bosses, everything. Tempo 119 posted:You're right, you could safely disregard most of your arsenal in a lot of older FF games and force your way through, but you can't do that in FF13, and yet here we are in 2013 still discussing how braindead it supposedly is. On one hand, "All FF games will ignore buffs and debuffs" is an irrational expectation, but on the other, it's not really an illogical one. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 02:36
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The thing is that status effects WERE really useful in older FF games. You pretty much never had to grind if you were willing to at least experiment. It sort of goes hand-in-hand with the falsehood of "you have to grind tons to beat this game" that somehow build up around FF. Even if that wasn't true though, Final Fantasy XIII has exactly 6 options for what you can do. You'd figure that, especially with almost-mandatory segments where you have to use them, folks would at least give it a shot.
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Jan 28, 2013 03:57
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ImpAtom posted:The thing is that status effects WERE really useful in older FF games. You pretty much never had to grind if you were willing to at least experiment. It sort of goes hand-in-hand with the falsehood of "you have to grind tons to beat this game" that somehow build up around FF. If nothing else, Saboteurs are a wonderful class because their attacks dramatically slow down the Stagger bar's drain rate. I can easily picture people neglecting Sentinels, but Saboteurs? For shame, for shame.
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Jan 28, 2013 03:59
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Oxxidation posted:If nothing else, Saboteurs are a wonderful class because their attacks dramatically slow down the Stagger bar's drain rate. I can easily picture people neglecting Sentinels, but Saboteurs? For shame, for shame. Coms do the same thing though. I mean, I still think it's ridiculous because sab/syn/rav was one of my permanent paradigms, but still.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:15
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Failboattootoot posted:Coms do the same thing though. I mean, I still think it's ridiculous because sab/syn/rav was one of my permanent paradigms, but still. SAB/RAV/RAV is the best and most reliable way to bring the chain up though, since you bring it up faster than COM/RAV/RAV while getting debuffs on the enemy AND lowering the bar's drain rate. COMs are better used after stagger, in my opinion.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:41
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