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One of the first wave of Icelandic migration to the west (not counting those who fell into the shadow of Mormonism and moved to Utah in the 1850s) was to Brazil where they settled in southern Brazil where Germans were prominent and the Icelanders, being Danish colonial subjects who knew Danish, figured it was basically the ssme poo poo and they could assimilate easily. Later migrations, around 20-25% of the population of Iceland in those days, settled in Manitoba. Which was dumb when Brazil was an option.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:24
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:for the midwest its usually refugees who get planted there. The bit of red in the middle of Wisconsin is almost certainly Hmong people. There was a mass emigration in the 1970s as a result of the Laotian civil war. The Hmong people had worked with the CIA on what ended up being the losing side of the war, and nearly half the population ended up coming to the US. It looks like at least one of those counties is Marathon county. There actually aren't that many Asian people there, but somewhat unusually for the US, there are almost no black or hispanic people.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:45
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Jan 7, 2024 02:56
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Jan 7, 2024 03:21
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It was posted here before I think, its the number of UNESCO world heritage sites. A good reminder to eat more fiber, though
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Jan 7, 2024 03:57
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drk posted:The bit of red in the middle of Wisconsin is almost certainly Hmong people. There was a mass emigration in the 1970s as a result of the Laotian civil war. The Hmong people had worked with the CIA on what ended up being the losing side of the war, and nearly half the population ended up coming to the US. Yeah, Wisconsin and Minnesota have a surprisingly large Hmong population, Some churches around here (southeastern Wisconsin) have signs in English, Spanish, and Hmong. Wisconsin also has a ton of German ancestry, to link it back to the other conversation. Every place I've lived in this state has celebrated Oktoberfest, usually with a block party and polka music. I know a few (old) people who still speak with a German accent and pepper their speech with German words/phrases, and it's not uncommon to get a "danke schoen" instead of a "thanks," at least where I grew up (Green Bay). There's also the brewing and drinking of massive quantities of beer, obviously.  I don't know whether to be proud or sad that Wisconsin's borders are so distinct on these kinds of maps (bars vs churches, bars vs grocery stores, alcohol consumption per capita, etc). Fifty Farts fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 04:13
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Is there some law that makes bars more lucrative there?
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Jan 7, 2024 14:48
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drk posted:This is a little misleading because most European immigration to the US was enough generations ago that relatively few European-Americans are still of a single ancestry. That's a good point. I've observed over the years that 90% of white Americans seem to describe themselves as 'German-Irish', to the point that it's almost a meme. Thing is, it's probably not wrong, after massive immigration waves from those two areas, and centuries of intra-European mixing, most of them probably do have ancestry from there. Also agreed that the bulk of European ancestry in the US is still English, or at least British. There seems to have been a sort of one drop rule for European ethnicities as well, where people identify, and are identified as, whichever part of their heritage deviates from English, which is implicitly seen as the featureless default. A couple of years ago, I got my dad (who is into both genetics and genealogy) a 23andMe kit for his birthday, and I decided to send in one for myself as well. It turned out I have hundreds and hundreds of 'relatives' (usually 4th cousins at most) in the United States who also got themselves tested. They are presumably descendants of people who emigrated to the US at one point and were related to ancestors of mine. Looking at their ancestry compositions, nearly all of them have a significant amount in the 'British & Irish' category, sometimes it's even the majority. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 15:00
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How is "British & Irish" one genetic category?
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Jan 7, 2024 15:33
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Because the differences are mainly cultural and mythological, genetically you can barely tell the difference. There have been later 'fine scale' pop-sci reports that claim noticeable genetic differences, but they have been accused of starting with the assumption that there is one and working backwards.
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Jan 7, 2024 15:44
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Yeah english and scottish people are mainly descended from pretty much exactly the same populations as the irish and welsh, they just started speaking english a few hundred years earlier because they were the ones closer to where the anglo-saxons landed.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:10
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kiminewt posted:How is "British & Irish" one genetic category? It's one of the European subcategories used by 23andMe, so I assume there are commonalities that would allow this. Other companies put England in the same category as parts of continental Northwestern Europe, and only group the insular 'Celtic nations' together instead. That's one of the problems with these tests. They're extremely reliable when it comes to the broad strokes, e.g. you are a mixed-race or New World person who wants to know which % of their ancestry is European versus Sub-Saharan African, but it starts getting arbitrary as you move into the more granular subcategories. It makes sense, since these adjacent groups usually have a long history of gene flow between them, and are difficult to delineate. To illustrate, and since it is appropriate for this thread, here are my results:  You'll notice that I am supposedly 3% 'British & Irish'. When I first got my results in 2020, that was actually something insane like 33%. I have no British people in my family that I know of. What happened to change my result from 33% to 3% was that they'd readjusted their algorithm to make it more reliable, based on additional testing and samples. That brings me to the other problem with these tests. You can see that it pinpointed me as being from Flanders, which seems very impressive at first glance, but there's a bit of circular reasoning going on here. What is considered 'Flemish' is based on the DNA of people who self-identify as natives from Flanders, such as myself, which is then used to declare that I am, in fact, Flemish. Of course, in the aggregate this does work out, and if you are an individual taking this test, you can still count on the results being mostly accurate.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:14
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You should identify as whatever cultural affectations you predominantly grew up with. Everything else is too complicated. My mom is very English, in that she's got very little English and lots of bits of all the conquerors and conquered of England in her. German / Norwegian / Scots / Irish / Spanish / French / and of course English. Too complicated. My dad, according to 23 and me, is 99.99% Ashkenazi. So I identify as an ashkenazi jew. Easy. Without my father, if I had to go with what my mother had, I'd be lost as hell. English / Scots- Irish I guess? What does that even mean?
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Jan 7, 2024 16:15
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Without my father, if I had to go with what my mother had, I'd be lost as hell. English / Scots- Irish I guess? What does that even mean? That means British.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:53
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Scotch-Irish (Ulster Scot) is the most British British.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:59
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:You should identify as whatever cultural affectations you predominantly grew up with. Everything else is too complicated. My mom is very English, in that she's got very little English and lots of bits of all the conquerors and conquered of England in her. German / Norwegian / Scots / Irish / Spanish / French / and of course English. Too complicated. My dad, according to 23 and me, is 99.99% Ashkenazi. I'm pretty sure you don't get to join the (orthodox) Jewish club unless your mom is Jewish though? Not that I actually care, I just think it's a neat rule because you can be pretty sure who the actual mother is, unlike the father. See also the Icelandic relations database, which traces basically everyone back to when their ancestors decided to leave Norway a thousand years ago. But it's also based on the official parents, which may or may not line up with the genetics.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:10
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That post is a pretty good illustration of the cultural one drop rule I was talking about earlier, especially his choice of words - cultural affectations. The way identity works in the United States is fascinating to me as an outsider, although it's based on universal psychological/sociological mechanisms and there are probably many comparable examples around the world. If you are white, you are led to identify with whichever parts of you that aren't British (which is apparently just 'standard American' even in 2024). If you are (part-European) mixed-race, you similarly usually identify with whichever parts of you that aren't white (which again is implicitly seen as the default). It is kind of paradoxical in that regard, it leads to people vastly underestimating the amount of European (and specifically British) influence still sloshing around in the US, both culturally and genetically, but at the same time it's very Eurocentric for obvious reasons.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:15
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Phlegmish posted:23andme I have my test results too and they are interesting because they identify me as being approximately half German, even though I dont have any German ancestry that I know of. But, I might - both my parents and all of my grandparents were born in the US, but before that it gets a bit less clear. Of course, when we are talking about 100+ years ago, what does "German" even mean? Europeans certainly like to redraw their borders every 10 years or so. Looking at a map from the turn of the 20th century, there are a lot of places that would have been German then, but are now Polish, or Danish, or French, etc... 
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Jan 7, 2024 17:34
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drk posted:Of course, when we are talking about 100+ years ago, what does "German" even mean? Europeans certainly like to redraw their borders every 10 years or so. Looking at a map from the turn of the 20th century, there are a lot of places that would have been German then, but are now Polish, or Danish, or French, etc... Ethnic cleansings does that to regions. If your ancestors were from Königsberg, they were likely Germans, even if the current population of Kalingrad is almost 100% Russian.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:38
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An Ahnenpass from 23andme has no scientific backing whatsoever. Puzzling over the numbers is like puzzling over your horoscope.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:42
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Antigravitas posted:An Ahnenpass from 23andme has no scientific backing whatsoever. Puzzling over the numbers is like puzzling over your horoscope. This is true, but its still fun to look at. They identify me as British, Irish, and German, which as the three largest places of European ancestry for Americans has basically just correctly identified me as white. Statistically speaking, probably the vast majority of white Americans who aren't recent immigrants have at least a little British, Irish, and/or German.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:56
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Antigravitas posted:An Ahnenpass from 23andme has no scientific backing whatsoever. Puzzling over the numbers is like puzzling over your horoscope. If you want to know exactly how 'French & German' versus 'British & Irish' you are for some reason...maybe. But as I said earlier, it's very reliable when you get to the overarching categories. First-generation mixed-race people who take these tests show up as essentially 50-50 every time, regardless of the company used. You can argue all you want that ~race is a construct~, and that the bigger categories are still arbitrary, but for various reasons it can still be emotionally charged for certain people grappling with their identity to find out which general region their ancestors came from. There are tons of videos on YouTube proving this. Unfortunately, many people are ill-equipped to interpret their own results due to a lack of historical and geographical knowledge, leading to them saying the dumbest poo poo
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Jan 7, 2024 17:57
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Phlegmish posted:for various reasons it can still be emotionally charged for certain people grappling with their identity to find out which general region their ancestors came from An Englishperson trying to figure out if they're 'part Scottish' or whatever won't learn anything useful from a 23andme, but a Montserratian living in London who wants to know more about their roots might.
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Jan 7, 2024 18:21
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I've never bothered with a 23andme because I would just get the Conan O'Brian 100% one ethnicity incest result. Also I can just go on internet and look up every ancestors at least back to the 1300s.
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Jan 7, 2024 18:35
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Phlegmish posted:
I still remember a video from the earliest days of DNA testing videos. The guy said something like "it's going to be 100% Dominican" before opening the results, and seemed genuinely confused and angry when this was not the case.
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Jan 7, 2024 18:48
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BonHair posted:I'm pretty sure you don't get to join the (orthodox) Jewish club unless your mom is Jewish though? Not that I actually care, I just think it's a neat rule because you can be pretty sure who the actual mother is, unlike the father. Fair point, but doesn't apply to me. My mother converted before I was born, so I am technically 100% Jewish in the eyes of Jewish law. Not that it matters to the Orthodox. My family is Reform, we already aren't considered real Jews. It's a whole thing. The 23 and me for my father was a big circle over all of European russia, going all the way into Eastern Germany. It's actually quite reflective of the Jewish experience in Europe though, being shuffled around from territory to territory on the whims of the current monarch.
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Jan 7, 2024 19:22
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FreudianSlippers posted:I've never bothered with a 23andme because I would just get the Conan O'Brian 100% one ethnicity incest result.
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Jan 7, 2024 19:25
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Offler posted:I still remember a video from the earliest days of DNA testing videos. The guy said something like "it's going to be 100% Dominican" before opening the results, and seemed genuinely confused and angry when this was not the case. Yeah, that's one of the most common fallacies on there, not understanding that nationality is not the same thing as ethnicity/race, especially in the Americas. It's usually combined with not knowing anything about the history of their own country of origin, for that double whammy. [shocked YouTube thumbnail face] I'm not even Mexican???? SHOCKING RESULTS because they have 40% Spanish ancestry or something, when that is both completely predictable for obvious historical reasons, and has nothing to do with whether or not you are 'Mexican'
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Jan 7, 2024 19:30
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Offler posted:During the period of about 1800-1950, Sweden kind of did away with most forms of 2nd person pronouns in polite speech because everyone got too into titles. Linguists call this the Swedish title mania. I wrote a post about it a year ago in the historical fun facts thread, I'll just copy it here.
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Jan 7, 2024 19:44
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Phlegmish posted:Yeah, that's one of the most common fallacies on there, not understanding that nationality is not the same thing as ethnicity/race, especially in the Americas. It's usually combined with not knowing anything about the history of their own country of origin, for that double whammy. In the U.S. you also have the very common family belief that there's significant native American ancestry in the family, which is often 100% made up. According to an offhand mention in a podcast I listen to, this is apparently so common that at least one of the testing companies wrote a couple of paragraphs about this belief and a couple of common reasons behind it as part of your test results.
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Jan 7, 2024 20:22
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Offler posted:In the U.S. you also have the very common family belief that there's significant native American ancestry in the family, which is often 100% made up. According to an offhand mention in a podcast I listen to, this is apparently so common that at least one of the testing companies wrote a couple of paragraphs about this belief and a couple of common reasons behind it as part of your test results. Don't forget that the origin of the native American ancestry is often to explain how melanin somehow entered the bloodline of some very white people. Which is more often actually explained by someone (usually a daughter) having sex with the slaves and/or servants.
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Jan 7, 2024 20:28
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Genetical tests are 80 % missunderstood and 20 % snake oil science.
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Jan 7, 2024 20:29
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BonHair posted:Don't forget that the origin of the native American ancestry is often to explain how melanin somehow entered the bloodline of some very white people. Which is more often actually explained by someone (usually a daughter) having sex with the slaves and/or servants. From what I've seen, I think this myth of Native American ancestry is actually just as common (if not more) among African Americans, for even more hosed up reasons. It was understandably more palatable to claim, as part of your family history, that light-skinned grandma was partially Native American than to face the truth, which would have been that it was the result of rape committed by the slave masters. It shows up in these tests, too. African Americans, on average, are around 20% European while having almost no native ancestry.
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Jan 7, 2024 20:45
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There's a joke about native Americans never getting laid in there I feel, but it's probably just down to numbers and reservations. And yeah, good job on me for only thinking of the white people. And God drat America.
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Jan 7, 2024 21:06
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Badger of Basra posted:Do any of the Americans itt know anyone who speaks German as an ancestral language? I certainly don't and I grew up close to a pretty large concentration of German Americans (central Texas). Yes the German teacher at my high school was born and raised in Kentucky but was raised speaking German. I did not take her class but she was apparently not a very good teacher. Mainly showed Disney movies in German for most of the day
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Jan 7, 2024 22:31
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The whole genetics/geneology to build an identity around thing is super weird to me.
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Jan 7, 2024 22:38
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OwlFancier posted:The whole genetics/geneology to build an identity around thing is super weird to me. I guess it would to someone that isn't proudly 16% irish 16% german 33% british 16% swedish and 16% italian gotta keep the old ways alive
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Jan 7, 2024 22:46
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Genetic results seem about as sensible as getting very attached to a book you read is all. If you didn't already know it from being alive then you're basically just using it as a story prompt for making up your own imagined story that doesn't actually apply to you but you like the sound of and want to feel attached to. And if you're gonna do that IMO you should at least pretend to be half dragon or something.
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Jan 7, 2024 22:57
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Goons not understanding how other humans work pt 4 million
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Jan 7, 2024 23:29
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Owl is right, as we come of age in the growth vats, we eat the same nutrient paste. Therr is np difference, we are all human batteries after all. The same lived experiences.
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Jan 8, 2024 00:49
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