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Eric the Mauve posted:Maybe but I've certainly heard that line myself from 5+ figure customers and never felt anything but annoyance, because of the invariably applied "...and therefore I'm special and the stipulations I signed off on shouldn't actually apply to me." My wife works in an industry with serious high value customers and white glove treatment for those high value customers. The funny part is you also have middle-tier clients that are most certainly not in that realm. A five figure complaint wouldn't even get her to bump your email to the front of her to do list. The accounts that get poo poo escalated when things go bad because they want them to stick around involve six, and more often seven figures. She's got some great stories about people who think they're hot poo poo because they own a locally important business in mid-sized city in the South and just assume that because they're calling to complain about $100k of fuckup it's an all hands on deck situation for her and her bosses. Big cash to you or me, but once you get into business expenses it can quickly become a rounding error. I touch on inventory management in my job and I signed off on dumping six figures worth of expired product into a landfill this week. Half our fault, half the supplier's fault, at the end of the day it's just a cost of doing business. We're looking at our end to see about fixing some inventory stuff to have it not happen again, and there are a few people cranky at the supplier so that might come back. Then again, there aren't many suppliers in the US for this stuff (specialty pigments) so we're probably just going to quietly grumble, if that. Rasputin on the Ritz fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 24, 2022 |
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Sep 24, 2022 05:55
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Not a Children posted:One thing I would save for last, or at least de-emphasize, is the "I want to keep being a customer" bit. If you pepper this throughout your discussion you're already negotiating against yourself and indicating you're not serious about dropping their services. Maybe this is appropriate given the context of your working relationship, but from the outside it looks like you're not seriously considering leaving. You want to put the fear of losing a customer in them, then give them the out at the end (reducing your bill in line with expectations).
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Sep 26, 2022 19:20
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Dik Hz posted:I disagree. Not every negotiation is adversarial and zero-sum. If you’re negotiating collaboratively emphasizing that you want to remain a customer can be both a proposal for a path forward and a veiled threat. Agreed as well, your position is that you are prepared to take your money/business elsewhere
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Sep 28, 2022 00:20
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I quibble with Dik's assertion insofar as negotiations are adversarial in nature; if there's no foundational disagreement then there's no need to negotiate. But the substance of the post is accurate: it doesn't follow that negotiations have to be hostile. They can, and ideally should, be professional and, if not cordial, at least unemotional. I read the OP's repeated mentions of wanting to say "I want to continue to be a customer" as a thinly veiled threat to walk, and I'm pretty sure that's how he meant it. Even if not I still would advise avoiding that particular wording. Communicate your desire for collaboration rather than hostility more along the lines of "I've always been happy with our relationship, I hope it will continue for a long time, let's take a few minutes and hash this thing out. What I expected based on our previous conversation was..."
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Sep 28, 2022 00:42
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negotation update. I called in on friday and got bounced around multiple times where nobody felt they were the right ones to speak with me on the matter. I got deferred that somebody would call me on monday. It's now end of the day tuesday and I still have not gotten a call. I'll be sending an email later this evening again requesting somebody speak with me on this.
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Sep 28, 2022 01:48
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Ah, the ol' rope-a-dope. A classic.
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Sep 28, 2022 02:04
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Good news for my preretirement job hunt next spring. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-29/new-california-law-will-require-job-postings-to-include-salary-ranges
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Sep 29, 2022 21:06
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Need to bounce a thought off you guys. I was approached by a consulting firm asking me to leave my current gig. I've been there about 8 months, but don't love it. The interview process was super fast- they need my skillset and it's somewhat unique. They gave me an offer that would be about a 20% rase on base with 15% bonus. I have no bonus today and the pto and 401k match are also better. I never told them what I make today I asked for about 10k more (they came to me first so why not) - they said no- I'm at the budget and they can't go higher. I'm very cool with their offer but don't want to set the precedent for future negotiations I'll just accept a "no." Am I overthinking this?
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Oct 6, 2022 21:00
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Paul Proteus posted:Need to bounce a thought off you guys. I'd say yes, you are. It's not a red flag if they're just firm on their first, very good offer. This is why most of the advice in the thread on how to word asking for more should give an easy out for you to accept as is. I.e. "I could sign today if 10k more" or "Another 10k would really sweeten the pot and make this choice easy" as good options vs "I would require another 10k to make this work for me." The latter leaves you less maneuvering room. That said you already asked using whatever language you used. Lots of people are inexpert in choosing their words optimally so regardless of what your did say, it sounds like a good offer you want to take.
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Oct 6, 2022 21:12
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Yeah, a win is getting a good offer. A win is not getting the first offer changed into a better offer. Know when you’ve won. Ends vs. means.
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Oct 6, 2022 21:24
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Thank you both for the feedback. I never made a demand; I just asked for more saying it would make the choice much easier. Figured I was overthinking it but appreciate the extra perspectives.
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Oct 6, 2022 21:51
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It was smart to ask for more, but it sounds like this is a pretty good offer at or above market already. It's not a bad thing to accept a good offer, no.
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Oct 6, 2022 22:10
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10 months ago I had been working at a family-owned business with an ancient founder whose son was being groomed to take over (almost a stereotype: brought in as the VP of Marketing then subsequently promoted to a fancier sounding do-nothing position with C-level surely shortly behind). After automating and improving a significant amount of the workflow, I was being asked to make coffee and generally carry the failson. Using the thread's advice I negotiated a new job with much better, fully remote, working conditions and +30% salary. My departure (and open contempt for the failson) caused a cascade of others to quit including my supervisor, ultimately resulting in a downward spiral that concluded with the sale of the company. A couple of my buddies landed very highly in the new organization, and they reached out to me offering a leadership position with all of the old BS removed. They had me write the job description and I just accepted for another +20% salary after giving myself a generous start date. I'm now coasting for the month of October before starting a new dream job off in figgieland. I have every confidence that if I hadn't started aggressively quitting and negotiating I would still be underpaid and disrespected. Thanks, thread!
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Oct 6, 2022 22:18
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Awesome and congrats!
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Oct 6, 2022 22:31
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have you seen my baby posted:10 months ago I had been working at a family-owned business with an ancient founder whose son was being groomed to take over (almost a stereotype: brought in as the VP of Marketing then subsequently promoted to a fancier sounding do-nothing position with C-level surely shortly behind). Inject it straight into my veins
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Oct 6, 2022 23:26
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Hell yeah, way to get that bag.
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Oct 6, 2022 23:49
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have you seen my baby posted:10 months ago I had been working at a family-owned business with an ancient founder whose son was being groomed to take over (almost a stereotype: brought in as the VP of Marketing then subsequently promoted to a fancier sounding do-nothing position with C-level surely shortly behind). 
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Oct 7, 2022 00:31
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Dik Hz posted:Too long for a thread title but Fabulous False Fables of Feckless Failsons and Fortuitous Furtherances of Financial Footing.
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Oct 7, 2022 02:22
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Fabulous False Fables of Feckless Failsons and Fortuitous Furtherances of Financial Footing. In Figgieland
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Oct 7, 2022 04:12
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My recent departure has also led to my old boss realizing that he is paying far too little and at least slightly increasing the range, as well as a raise for my remaining colleague. Otherwise he would have been the most senior tech at the company, paid less than the new hires 
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Oct 7, 2022 04:44
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have you seen my baby posted:10 months ago I had been working at a family-owned business with an ancient founder whose son was being groomed to take over (almost a stereotype: brought in as the VP of Marketing then subsequently promoted to a fancier sounding do-nothing position with C-level surely shortly behind).  What happened to failson, did he get axed in the takeover or are you now going to be his boss?
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Oct 7, 2022 11:20
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A year ago my wife started a new job and, with this thread’s help, was able to negotiate up to a salary we were pretty happy with. Yesterday she had her annual review and the consensus was that she has done amazingly, far beyond what would reasonably have been expected. It would have been nearly impossible for her to have done any better, which her boss openly acknowledges. They offered her a 4% raise, which we feel is pretty poor. She did not accept and asked to get back with them later this week to negotiate. We are preparing for that negotiation now, it feels much harder without the leverage a new job offer provides. Any advice?
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Oct 11, 2022 14:53
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SpaceParrot posted:A year ago my wife started a new job and, with this thread’s help, was able to negotiate up to a salary we were pretty happy with. Is this annual review for everyone at your company? If so, this is not the time to negotiate for a raise. That's basically a yearly cost-of-living bump/merit increase and is likely coming out of a pool of already-budgeted money (so if your wife gets more money, then someone else gets less). There are numerous other mentions of this throughout the thread- annual review time is usually the worst time to ask for a raise at work because of that. Since she's already trying to negotiate, she might have accidentally shot herself in the foot on this one because the best option would have been to wait and ask for an off-cycle raise, which might be weird to do in the near future since she's basically asking for one right now. If the annual review is a yearly review for just her based on hire date or something like that, then asking for more may have been the right move, but usually that's not what annual reviews are so I assumed it was the normal "everyone gets reviewed at this time of the year" type deal.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:04
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It's generally harder to negotiate a raise since there isn't really a true BATNA (Implied quitting, thats about it). I tend to find it helps to have a specific number in mind and maybe some willingness to get there over some time, but keep in mind that you are still negotiating against market. So if you're a widget supervisor and doing awesome, but you're at the top of the market, then it doesn't matter how awesome you are. So can she realistically find a job that pays better? If no, this is going to be a pretty uphill battle. Keep in mind with merit increases it's a pool. Your team gets a pool of money that equates to a 3 or whatever %. So any % she gets above average means someone else needs to get that much money less. So if she has an argument that she should be making 10% above what she is, raise time is the worst time to try to make that happen. Its better to target a promotion or an off-cycle adjustment to make that jump.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:06
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If you expect more than standard raises you need to be negotiating that with your boss at least 6 mos before the time when raises are announced. Off cycle works better in most normal companies. It does not apply to super lockstep stuff like big 4, consulting, or big law.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:13
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4% in my experience in the corporate world is a pretty decent merit/annual increase. Historically the pool for "merit" increases in my experience has been between 2.5% and 3%. Agree with the other posters, now is not the time to negotiate a raise, the whole annual review process is just a perfunctory exercise that companies make you go through so you can get a predetermined "merit" increase
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Oct 11, 2022 15:18
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you expect more than standard raises you need to be negotiating that with your boss at least 6 mos before the time when raises are announced. Off cycle works better in most normal companies. It does not apply to super lockstep stuff like big 4, consulting, or big law. Do you mean that annual raise time *is* the time to discuss raises in the consulting field? Can you expand a bit on why that is? I've been averaging >10% y/y raises at normal raise time (and I'm in consulting) but given my billable rate / utilization I think I should get 15% this year (given what I know about our rates for next year / how much my current rate is going up) and want to be sure I hit that. I've had some discussions and my manager seems to agree, and my current employer is good about actually paying fairly/well (pays well for a mid-size firm, can't compete with top tier firms on salary, but I made associate and now have an equity stake which adds a sizeable bump), so I'd like to know when I should really be approaching this. TrueChaos fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 15:20
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m0therfux0r posted:Is this annual review for everyone at your company? If so, this is not the time to negotiate for a raise. That's basically a yearly cost-of-living bump/merit increase and is likely coming out of a pool of already-budgeted money (so if your wife gets more money, then someone else gets less). There are numerous other mentions of this throughout the thread- annual review time is usually the worst time to ask for a raise at work because of that. Since she's already trying to negotiate, she might have accidentally shot herself in the foot on this one because the best option would have been to wait and ask for an off-cycle raise, which might be weird to do in the near future since she's basically asking for one right now. This was a review based on the anniversary of her hire date, not company wide.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:44
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TrueChaos posted:Do you mean that annual raise time *is* the time to discuss raises in the consulting field? Can you expand a bit on why that is? I've been averaging >10% y/y raises at normal raise time (and I'm in consulting) but given my billable rate / utilization I think I should get 15% this year (given what I know about our rates for next year / how much my current rate is going up) and want to be sure I hit that. I've had some discussions and my manager seems to agree, and my current employer is good about actually paying fairly/well (pays well for a mid-size firm, can't compete with top tier firms on salary, but I made associate and now have an equity stake which adds a sizeable bump), so I'd like to know when I should really be approaching this. At my firm unless there are some broad company level adjustments, you get your comp adjusted once a year as well as promotions etc. Everyone knows when this is, so discussions occur in the lead up to that point in time. You should be having regular career advancement conversations on a at least quarterly basis regardless, but yes, the appropriate time to discuss raises is at annual raise time.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:52
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skipdogg posted:4% in my experience in the corporate world is a pretty decent merit/annual increase. Historically the pool for "merit" increases in my experience has been between 2.5% and 3%. Lol someone on our team asked for 20% after 1 year here and my manager was so blown away they complained to me about it at lunch for a solid 5 minutes My response: "sure, but they have letters after their name and expect to be treated as such"
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Oct 11, 2022 16:09
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Car Hater posted:Lol someone on our team asked for 20% after 1 year here and my manager was so blown away they complained to me about it at lunch for a solid 5 minutes
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Oct 11, 2022 16:35
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Sounds like someone needs to update their resume, as big a pain in the rear end as that would be. Job market is still pretty hot as far as I know.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:35
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SpaceParrot posted:This was a review based on the anniversary of her hire date, not company wide. In that case I'd probably suggest you'd have more luck identifying a number and a reasonable timeframe to get there. After a year you may or may not have a lot of luck getting there. How are they in terms of market? If making another jump after another 6 or so months would get a higher pay bump it may make sense to think about that as the next step. Of course, usual spiel about cost of switching companies and all that. I mean, just in general if you negotiated a good market rate upfront I wouldn't expect a big raise after 12 months even if you outperformed, unless there were truly unique or exceptional circumstances going on. That kind of big raise after a year is usually for a situation where you started at a poor market rate and the company realizes they are at risk of you getting pulled away.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:37
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Magnetic North posted:Sounds like someone needs to update their resume, as big a pain in the rear end as that would be. Job market is still pretty hot as far as I know. Depends on industry. I'm in tech and it's starting to cool off a little, hiring freezes at some companies are happening. Couple that with the traditional end of year hiring slowness/pauses while budgets and headcounts are evaluated and it might not be a bad idea to chill wherever you are through the end of the year and see how things are going after the first of the year. The job market still seems pretty good, but it's nothing like it was 6 - 8 months ago.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:43
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skipdogg posted:The job market still seems pretty good, but it's nothing like it was 6 - 8 months ago. Yeah I'd agree with this. I think a lot of the craziness has cooled, but there's still lots of people who are under market who could probably stand to look around though.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:59
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It's actually the perfect time to hoot and holler and demand whatever company-improving suggestions you have in exchange for your magnanimous understanding of the terrible situation they're in re: inflation if you're paid well enough to balance QOL vs COL
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Oct 11, 2022 17:10
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I'm in a situation where my last "raise" meant that I'm effectively earning less in real dollars than last year. Even though by the stated standards a 7% should be a good merit increase, gently caress that. New hires are getting offered 50%-70% on top of my pay. I think I get the hint.
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Oct 11, 2022 17:24
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gbut posted:I'm in a situation where my last "raise" meant that I'm effectively earning less in real dollars than last year. Yeah, I always don't know how to approach "I got a low raise" without knowing where your pay is vs market. Some people are overpaid, they just are, and a low raise that still puts you over market is still a good raise. If new people are getting hired that much higher than you, I am pretty sure you're not at market. And I am pretty sure they also know this and don't really care to do anything about it.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:00
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I'm definitely under market, thus the "new hires get way more" part. The company did a couple of "COL adjustments" beyond the raises over years, but those were more symbolic than anything. I'm aware, they are aware (I was pretty vocal about it for the last year) but I presume they are counting on me staying because I already overstayed (6th year here, a lot of turnover lately, layoffs last month). A soft layoff / cheap labor gamble on their part is how I read it. They also changed my manager every 6 months or so in the last couple of years, which didn't help me at all. Personal circumstances didn't allow me to apply elsewhere because the flexibility the position provided as I was going through it. Now that seems to be over and I'm finally getting some time to prep the ship jump. Which I intend to do very soon.
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Oct 11, 2022 19:28
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How would yall suggest finding your market value as a 1099 consultant? I feel like I got bodied in an interview earlier when I thought I'd bring up my previous (over market) salary with a go between company. Guy went through the math and added a lot to account for the obvious, then tried to counter later that day with basically the same salary as my previous position once everything was taken into account. Haven't heard from him since but I would like to be a little more prepared for next time.
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Oct 12, 2022 02:16
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