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I guess it is time for Dramaten to make a comeback. Also, can’t imagine shopping for groceries without a scanner and packing as you go.
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Feb 16, 2020 08:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What I mean by carrying something else is that you might be carrying poo poo back home from work/school. Like you say, buying groceries generally doesn't come as a surprise, and that includes planning to buy your poo poo on the way home rather than making dedicated shopping trips. So bring a foldable bag, ideally a second hand one. As shown above, if you use your sturdy cotton (or hemp!) bag more than 150 times, it's better than the plastic bags. That's less than a year's worth of shopping. Have people really become this goddamn helpless?
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Feb 16, 2020 09:49
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His Divine Shadow posted:Okay last friday I spooned out the contents of a filbunke into 5 other bowls, could have gotten more if I wanted to. Anyway filled them with regular whole milk and some cream and put them in room temp for 24 hours, then into the fridge. This morning I tried one and hey, it's viili. Not as strongly flavoured as the commercial stuff, but I think with time it will increase. I prefer it like this though. Heh. I just did something similar with cream and filmjölk yesterday. Great minds?
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Feb 16, 2020 10:05
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So really you're better off just reusing plastic bags? Been doing that for a while in any case.
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Feb 16, 2020 11:36
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If you insist on using plastic bags, reuse them as many times as possible and finally use them as trash bags or put them in the plastic recycling bin. Do everything you can to avoid them ending up in nature. It's still better to just get a good cloth bag or two (preferably second hand or upcycled) and use them for decades, it's not that hard.
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Feb 16, 2020 11:46
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I need a steady flow of ICA bags for my garbage bin because the kommun påsar are garbage and some hushållspapper with dried pizza sauce on it forming an edge will slice those bags up like a loving lightsaber.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:11
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Katt posted:I need a steady flow of ICA bags for my garbage bin because the kommun påsar are garbage and some hushållspapper with dried pizza sauce on it forming an edge will slice those bags up like a loving lightsaber. ICA sells packs durable plastic bags for vastly less than what you pay for single ones. Also, by buying single plastic bags you are giving money to ICA supermarket owners, which is the category of people in Sweden most likely to own a Ferrari.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:26
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KozmoNaut posted:So bring a foldable bag, ideally a second hand one. KozmoNaut posted:As shown above, if you use your sturdy cotton (or hemp!) bag more than 150 times, it's better than the plastic bags.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:10
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In my experience Kiwi has the worst plastic bags of the Norwegian supermarkets. I remember they specifically had a little sign up when they introduced the new ones and they boasted about them now being made with thinner plastic for the benefit of the environment. They're smaller and tear much more easily than the ones you get at many of the other stores. And you pay the same. I think the Bunnpris ones are best so I tend to keep those around. Meny is better than Kiwi IIRC, even though they are both owned by the same corporation, and Rema is somewhere in between Kiwi and Bunnpris, in that they're bigger but still pretty thin. e: I haven't lived close to any COOP or Joker stores for quite a while so I can't really say anything about their plastic bags in this dumb supermarket plastic bag anecdotally based review. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 14:17
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how many times one uses a bag has an absolutely negligible impact on the environment, much like literally any individual consumption decision. it's a trap.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:46
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B-b-b-ut it allows me to feel like I'm doing my part without really doing much at all
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Feb 16, 2020 14:52
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Randarkman posted:B-b-b-ut it allows me to feel like I'm doing my part without really doing much at all Environmental debate the last 20 years and the reason Miljöpartiet still exists.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:05
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Cardiac posted:Environmental debate the last 20 years and the reason Miljöpartiet still exists. Well if it'sanything like the Norwegian version then that's more like specifically allowing wealthy people to feel like they're doing their part while poorer people pay for this by way of regressive taxation.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:15
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Randarkman posted:Well if it'sanything like the Norwegian version then that's more like specifically allowing wealthy people to feel like they're doing their part while poorer people pay for this by way of regressive taxation. i hate mdg and wish them to perish as a party
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Feb 16, 2020 15:20
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V. Illych L. posted:how many times one uses a bag has an absolutely negligible impact on the environment, much like literally any individual consumption decision. it's a trap. It will however meaningfully effect your annual costs which is a pretty great reason as far as individual decisions go.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:22
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they are so obviously keen on picking stupid fights in order to differentiate themselves from other parties rather than proposing decent solutions to the great problem of our time. they are actively counter-productive and somehow they've identified "doing something about the climate crisis" with "living in a city and sneering at anyone who needs a car in their life". i hate it!!!!
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Feb 16, 2020 15:23
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V. Illych L. posted:they are so obviously keen on picking stupid fights in order to differentiate themselves from other parties rather than proposing decent solutions to the great problem of our time. they are actively counter-productive and somehow they've identified "doing something about the climate crisis" with "living in a city and sneering at anyone who needs a car in their life". i hate it!!!! Yeah. Seriously they suck major rear end. As for the car thing I loving hate that if you are not in one of the major cities that the availability of public transport has gotten much worse in the last two decades. Where I live and work now, which is about 25-30 minutes from Drammen and like right next to Rv35, used to be you could take Timesekspressen (and decades before that the loving train) any time to get back and forth, even late at night. Now the only bus route leaves Drammen at the latest around 6 PM and if I want to visit friends there or in Oslo I have to drive or have someone drive me at least part of the way. If I want to grab some beers (which I might often want to when visiting friends in the weekends) I have to either arrange to sleep over at someone's place, get a hotel room, or leave early to take the train part of the way I need to go, then arrange for someone with a car to pick me up or pay out my rear end to take a cab or I could walk for about 5 hours (or however long it takes). This poo poo actually legitimately makes me loving furious, because public transport here used to be pretty good and it's been progressively destroyed by local and central politicians over the years for reasons I can't even fathom. And this is not loving out of the way, people live here, it's next to a major road. I made an rear end out of myself this Christmas holiday when I was out with friends in Drammen and I got pretty drunk and I begun ranting and raving that I loving hate Høyre, because this loving reeks of them.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:03
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I'll flag Miljöpartiet for, without exception, working for making public transit more and more expensive for the commuters. Like what in the honest gently caress.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, 150 times the number of times you'd use a plastic bag. Which could be a lot, if they're the bigger and slightly sturdier type. The normal cheap ones, not the fancy woven plastic fabric ones. Those are genuinely pretty good, made from recycled plastic and last a long time, similar to Ikea bags. V. Illych L. posted:how many times one uses a bag has an absolutely negligible impact on the environment, much like literally any individual consumption decision. it's a trap. It has an effect, however small that may be for the individual case. The most important thing is that it should never be an excuse to not do anything more, because "well, now I've done my part, I'm good". We should reduce consumption overall on all fronts. Industry and especially fossil fuels are the worst offenders, but individual action by many individuals also matters, but obviously don't outright make your life a constant struggle to be perfectly sustainable all the time. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, everything matters. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 17:17
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KozmoNaut posted:The normal cheap ones, not the fancy woven plastic fabric ones. Those are genuinely pretty good, made from recycled plastic and last a long time, similar to Ikea bags. V. Illych L. posted:how many times one uses a bag has an absolutely negligible impact on the environment, much like literally any individual consumption decision. it's a trap.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:22
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Lagerhaus has some amazing reusable bags for like 25kr and yes, I’m going to ICA Maxi and I’m making it fashion. Also if any of y’all are makeup slatherers, Kicks has a pilot program for reducing cosmetic and beauty waste through (apparently) partnering up with certain kommuns to help in sorting out waste for recycling as cosmetic labels aren’t great at indicating such things! I’m bringing in my waste for last year soon and spoiler alert: it’s a ton of plastic for little actual product! It’s also cut down my spending on makeup (though my tattoo and “vice” spending is now gleefully chomping away at those savings).
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Feb 16, 2020 17:37
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the issue with focussing on individual consumption is that it turns the climate crisis into a matter of personal morality, which is what the pernicious Greens love doing and which is exactly the wrong approach
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Feb 16, 2020 17:42
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"Let's ignore personal consumption because industry is worse" is also counterproductive.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:10
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KozmoNaut posted:"Let's ignore personal consumption because industry is worse" is also counterproductive. Exactly. We can walk and chew bubblegum here, except by chew bubblegum I mean “heavily scrutinize industry and and the monumental wastes of capitalism”
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Feb 16, 2020 18:22
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KozmoNaut posted:"Let's ignore personal consumption because industry is worse" is also counterproductive.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:17
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nobody ever changed society by making everyone moral people. it's a fallacy and in practical terms consumer focus always ends up boiling down to people being bad human beings for not living in a city centre
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Feb 16, 2020 19:23
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Collateral Damage posted:The problem is when it becomes "Let's ignore industry and only focus on personal consumption." People who insist on having a myopic view are idiots.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:26
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Well my knækbrød is CO2-compensated. 
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Feb 16, 2020 19:30
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KozmoNaut posted:People who insist on having a myopic view are idiots. people are idiots or rather, people have a lot of poo poo they need to do and think about and don't consider politics all that carefully
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Feb 16, 2020 19:35
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I don't mind individuals focusing on personal consumption, as that is one of the few ways you can actually feel in control when it comes to the absurd situation we find ourselves in. I do have a problem with so called 'green' parties squandering political capital to restrict personal consumption when there are so many better ways to spend it for large national parties.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:40
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the whole push for individual action is imo *wrong*. we should not, as individuals, feel in control when we use a tote bag instead of a disposable plastic bag, because we're not making anything better. indeed, that feeling of control is going to make us complacent! the only way we're getting through this is by hard-line collective action. sops to individual morality are a waste of time at best and counterproductive at worst
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Feb 16, 2020 19:47
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Making people care about the environment on an individual level is the first step towards making people vote for the environment on an individual level. Which is the most useful way to force a change. I don't see how people could ever run a parallel effort of having people not give a poo poo on a personal level but somehow care enough to move political mountains over it in a joint effort. 10/10 people who argue that individual efforts is wasted also argue that efforts on a national level are also wasted "cause China" and the question dies there. Is there any person out there who fights for the environment on a meaningful level who are also like "gently caress it I'll just throw my garbage on the side of the road because we need to fight global warming on a policy level and individual efforts don't matter"?
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Feb 16, 2020 20:36
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Telling people "your individual action is pointless and worthless" opens the gates to eco-fascism. People like to feel like they're making an actual difference, and we have to cater to that feeling.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:51
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KozmoNaut posted:Telling people "your individual action is pointless and worthless" opens the gates to eco-fascism. I'd say that it opens the gates to nihilism and "I can't make a difference so why bother trying" which is a position that people will push in bad faith. Right wingers will constantly point at countries like China and go "why should our country spend money on environmentalist policies when China nullifies our work anyway" Which is just a re-branding of "foreign aid is pointless when people in Africa still starve" and naturally "why help refugees when we have people here who need aid" Anything to convince people that nudging the status quo is a waste of time.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:23
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your method clearly doesn't work because it leads people to vote for useless Green parties who somehow attempt to stay above party politics. the Green mentality really is just the consumer activist mentality extrapolated onto a political movement - it's effectively saying that if everyone was like Us, we'd all be fine but those fukken yokels resent it when we pump up the price of driving without adequately funding alternative modes of transportation the assholes, they should've bought a better-placed home!
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Feb 16, 2020 21:34
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Democracy doesn't give us the leaders we need. Only the ones we deserve. So maybe we can deserve betters ones when more people actually care about the environment.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:40
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see my earlier point re: society becoming better once we make people more moral
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Feb 16, 2020 21:45
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Katt posted:Which is just a re-branding of "foreign aid is pointless when people in Africa still starve" and naturally "why help refugees when we have people here who need aid" These are not equal. Foreign aid to Africa is pointless in the sense that the continent faces a gargantuan net loss due to capital flight and other forms of wealth extraction. Would you say this point is routinely addressed by the organisations that let you "do your part" by individually sponsoring orphans or the like? Does it receive as much attention? These things absolutely do end up obscuring the larger issues.
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Feb 16, 2020 22:03
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SplitSoul posted:These are not equal. Foreign aid to Africa is pointless in the sense that the continent faces a gargantuan net loss due to capital flight and other forms of wealth extraction. Would you say this point is routinely addressed by the organisations that let you "do your part" by individually sponsoring orphans or the like? Does it receive as much attention? These things absolutely do end up obscuring the larger issues. I would say that the people who argue for ending foreign end don't give a poo poo about foreign people in the same way that people who argue that recycling is a waste of time don't really care about the environment.
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Feb 16, 2020 22:08
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Katt posted:I would say that the people who argue for ending foreign end don't give a poo poo about foreign people in the same way that people who argue that recycling is a waste of time don't really care about the environment. Or maybe they are just really angry at the people who pretend these things are enough and are actively working to prevent real change. If you refuse to recycle to "own the libs" that's pretty juvenile, but its not nearly as bad as not advocating or voting for collective action. The fact that the former is seen by our individualist society as the worse stance is the real problem. I do think it's really bad not to recycle. But having the opinion that the government shouldn't interfere with the free market to prevent climate catastrophe is dangerous on the level of Wahhabism and should be treated as such.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:03
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