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Howard Phillips posted:Not necessarily. You can try to negotiate for the highest step, if they are not willing to increase your grade. You'd need to show them your offer letter as justification for your negotiation. Getting that offer letter would likely require me actually accepting their offer verbally and then immediately burning them by using that letter as leverage for the Mint since it'd take them some time to run it through their hiring manager to approve or reject and by that time, they'd start running me through their various checks and such. Like I don't want to play a sub game of gambling on burning both a recruiter or potential employer (or just the department) since, according to them, the actual person I'd be working for stopped looking and offered me a position the day of and wanted someone as soon as possible so there's not a lot of time for me to fiddle around with negotiations. But I may also just be too nice.
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May 15, 2021 02:00
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Xelkelvos posted:Getting that offer letter would likely require me actually accepting their offer verbally and then immediately burning them by using that letter as leverage for the Mint since it'd take them some time to run it through their hiring manager to approve or reject and by that time, they'd start running me through their various checks and such. This is where you need to be really honest with yourself about what you want out of a career, because all other things being equal you're going to get way, way better compensation in the private sector than you ever will working for fedgov. If you've got the skills to get paid on the outside, my advice to anyone would be to let the US sink to the bottom of the trash can, where it belongs, and go be successful your own.
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May 15, 2021 02:15
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Midjack posted:This is where you need to be really honest with yourself about what you want out of a career, because all other things being equal you're going to get way, way better compensation in the private sector than you ever will working for fedgov. If you've got the skills to get paid on the outside, my advice to anyone would be to let the US sink to the bottom of the trash can, where it belongs, and go be successful your own. I mean, the other company is Dupont so if you want to talk about which employer is morally better, then good luck with that.
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May 15, 2021 02:44
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I went into federal work to avoid being ethically complicit in the destructive pursuit of capital and the soul numbing rat race of the private secto--*ring ring*--oh, sorry, the Bayer representatives are on the line asking about the LD50 of our experimental herbicide in rhesus monkeys, I have to take this.
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May 15, 2021 03:17
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I actually went into fedgov partly because IRS call center work pays better at entry level than other call center jobs and has a much much healthier work environment (one local place I went to had essentially catwalks above the call center area straight out of 1984). Offer not available for all entry-level fedjobs, please consult your local government agent for personalized job advice.
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May 15, 2021 06:01
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:I actually went into fedgov partly because IRS call center work pays better at entry level than other call center jobs and has a much much healthier work environment (one local place I went to had essentially catwalks above the call center area straight out of 1984). Offer not available for all entry-level fedjobs, please consult your local government agent for personalized job advice. There's probably a certain irony in that, while the IRS call center job is fairly awful, it probably is better than most other call center jobs. the tradeoff is that you're expected to know a lot more in order to do your job
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May 15, 2021 06:05
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Govjobs have tenure.
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May 15, 2021 06:54
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It gets even more ironic than that, you're not really supposed to just KNOW much of anything, you have to play by the IRM on every call and can be sniped at any time for not following it closely enough for minor/major mistakes alike if you try just guessing your way through things. What you are expected to do is be able to follow directions well and know how to find them i.e. some basic search engine and browser tricks can easily put you ahead as long as you also can get a good general process down. After the initial training where they beat resources, background, and basic foundations into your head, the training for other types of calls gets shorter and shorter and you start learning more by osmosis than anything else. It's kind of incredible because all the skills that make me stand out just feel like basic things anyone should be able to pick up themselves and for some of these things people could literally just get an account transcript, search for stuff in the IRM and give themselves their timeframe for resolution rather than call in.
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May 15, 2021 07:06
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:It gets even more ironic than that, you're not really supposed to just KNOW much of anything, you have to play by the IRM on every call and can be sniped at any time for not following it closely enough for minor/major mistakes alike if you try just guessing your way through things. What you are expected to do is be able to follow directions well and know how to find them i.e. some basic search engine and browser tricks can easily put you ahead as long as you also can get a good general process down. After the initial training where they beat resources, background, and basic foundations into your head, the training for other types of calls gets shorter and shorter and you start learning more by osmosis than anything else. It's kind of incredible because all the skills that make me stand out just feel like basic things anyone should be able to pick up themselves and for some of these things people could literally just get an account transcript, search for stuff in the IRM and give themselves their timeframe for resolution rather than call in. Unfortunately, the IRM is not exactly the most user friendly set of documents for even experts, let alone laypeople. And it's set up as a straight technical doc pulled from the 80 mixed with a little web 1.0 rather than something from even 2005. You'd also think it'd be easy to find timeframes, but without knowing exactly where to search and finding the specific line where it in amongst all of the text, it can get easy to miss. I've even requested they make something really basic like a summarized chart of all of the times frames for stuff in a single doc rather than spread out across the various IRMs. The IRS is really just in a mess with a Sisyphean task with its employees bound in a tangle of poorly explained regs.
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May 15, 2021 07:24
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I'm still on fence when it comes to gov vs. private sector as I get closer to finishing my two year probationary period. Although I complain about the amount of boomers in my org, I also realize that job stability past 50 is one of the greatest benefits of government work. We will all be 50+ one day. Ageism is real. Downsizing and realignments are real. Stability could be more valuable than 1.5x or even 2x paycheck for some.
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May 15, 2021 11:59
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Yeah there's not always a hard and fast rule of "you will definitely make more in the private sector" and even if that is true for a given situation, the larger benefits of federal employment - in my experience - vastly outweigh the downsides. I've been on both sides of the fence and in my sector it's not even close and I can't foresee myself ever going back to contracting. If you're young and mobile or otherwise have a stable source of income you can fall back on, I could see the attractiveness of contracting, but otherwise it's not appealing to me anymore. With federal employment the deal you are getting is very transparent - the pros and cons are mostly laid out for you with little scope for lovely surprises outside of the nuances of a particular office like a lovely boss or lazy coworkers or the job not being what you thought it was. Point being that there may be some local uncertainty, but there's probably not going to be a whole lot of surprise above that level like unexpectedly losing your job. (Note that you'll have to deal with this as a contractor, too, and you'll be a step further down on the totem pole while dealing with it.) With contracting, you do the job you're hired for but you're expected to also do the company's bidding, as well. How much of that corporate poo poo you're expected to do varies by company and position of course, but at the end of the day you are filling a billet to make somebody else money and you can be damned sure they are going to make it worth their while to have you on their payroll. That could mean they expect you to work for the client for 8 hours and then come back to the corporate site to work on bid proposals without being paid anything extra, or have you let a few of your coworkers know that, unfortunately, the contract wasn't funded again at its current level and they will have to start looking for a new job, or tell you that there's a new prime on the contract and they're replacing the entire team with their own people and you have 45 days to settle your affairs and leave the country. These are all things that I've experienced in my career and as lovely as they sound I can assure you they are worse in person. All that to say, money is obviously a huge factor when deciding things like this. But put that salary in perspective of the totality of position you will find yourself in under each circumstance before you make a decision.
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May 15, 2021 13:55
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These things vary so much by specialty. I don't think there are many private sector equivalents of my job. The ones they exist often require a JD and long hours. and i doubt they can offer much more pay. And from what I've seen dealing with these people, i most definitely do NOT want their jobs
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May 15, 2021 15:17
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menpoop posted:Yeah there's not always a hard and fast rule of "you will definitely make more in the private sector" and even if that is true for a given situation, the larger benefits of federal employment - in my experience - vastly outweigh the downsides. I've been on both sides of the fence and in my sector it's not even close and I can't foresee myself ever going back to contracting. If you're young and mobile or otherwise have a stable source of income you can fall back on, I could see the attractiveness of contracting, but otherwise it's not appealing to me anymore. I agree with you 100% about the realities of contracting. The absolute worst to me was knowing that I was just a peg plugged in to the contractor hole so Deloitte could make money. They paid me $80,000 and I know for a fact they charged the government $150,000 for me. It just pissed me off. I'll also add that I made $80,000 as a communications contractor writing up reports and queueing up staff messages and stuff, basically internal comms with some cat-herding and lawyer-placating. My role in fedgov is promotion potential to GS-13, so more than the contractor salary, and I was near the top of what people like me earned in DC, from what I can tell. So, more money, more stability, and I'm not just earning some contracting firm cash off my labor. Win win win.
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May 15, 2021 15:55
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Thesaurus posted:These things vary so much by specialty. I don't think there are many private sector equivalents of my job. The ones they exist often require a JD and long hours. and i doubt they can offer much more pay. And from what I've seen dealing with these people, i most definitely do NOT want their jobs Same here. There are some city/county gov positions that do tangential stuff to what I do though and those can pay very well. Also seems attractive to hunt that double pension-game. For me, that's the attraction to fed-jobs - you find work on interesting problems that are usually enormously large in scale in a way that just doesn't exist elsewhere.
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May 15, 2021 16:57
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Yeah I did a contracting gig overseas, could’ve renewed but chose not to, 3-4 months later they lost the contract anyway. I have family who are actual employees with contractors, they do tend to look out for you a bit more (especially if you make a few friends), but overall the uncertainty would drive me crazy. Find a project and people you like? You’ll get a limited term with them, at best. I do wish I might’ve landed in fedgov back when I was starting out but I didn’t know all the tricks and ground myself into a pulp looking for years for nothing. I think certain specialties lend themselves better to slotting into fedgov, and I just wasn’t quite the right fit. Things I was interested in never gave me a second look, and it didn’t make sense to take something that was mediocre and way behind in pay for me when it finally did come in.
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May 15, 2021 17:46
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Contractor life is challenging and in most circumstances I would not recommend it to anyone. As a HQ government employee, I have four contractors that support me. My position is not supervisory but I have to supervise these four. The contract says that the prime and subs are supposed to provide fully trained professionals to fill technical and management support roles but that hardly ever happens. Instead I get retired military people who are just looking for an easy pay check or fresh out of college kids with no experience or understanding of the work. I feel bad for my support contractors because the whole setup is basically rigged to be inefficient and fail. Contractors constantly get shuffled from project to project if their government supervisor doesn't like them or the contractor administration/managers decide to move or put you on another project. Now, there are contractors that are extremely good. Usually two things happen with these exceptional people, they become government or they join a boutique government contractor firm with high salary and ESOP (employee stock ownership plan). First group is obvious, they are good that they realize they can do the job better than the government office workers they support and are recognized as such. These people tend to enjoy the responsibility and authority that comes from being "guvie." Pay is not necessarily better. Second group of contractors are those who want high quality work and much improved compensation. One of the subs that works with the top bosses in my org is small (less than 10 people) but they are all compensated above an SES in addition to their stock options and bonuses. They don't have the responsibility of the government leaders they support but they do the most critical work (often at higher quality and speed than even the best government managers). Sure they don't have government seats, but they indirectly have lots of power because they draft contract strategy documents, fielding plans for military acquisitions, and other critical work. But these two cases of contractors are the exception. Most people are filling seats so the managers can bill all the hours awarded on the contract (and also maximize the $ ceiling). I know that they bill $150-250k per FTE for a fresh out of college kid with a salary of $60-80k. Ridiculous. I'd rather hire a single lower grade government deputy than have four support contractors. Howard Phillips fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 19:47
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I'm getting ready for orientation and haven't been this excited for a job in a while! Thank you so much to everybody who talked to me about FEMA and helped me make the decision to commit. I'm not sure what to expect, but I'll do my best.Xelkelvos posted:The IRS is really just in a mess with a Sisyphean task with its employees bound in a tangle of poorly explained regs. I think you're spot on with this post. On the one hand, we've gotten a lot more public recognition of what the IRS could potentially do in the wake of the stimulus checks and other forms of economic assistance. On the other hand, it kinda seems like proposed fixes content themselves with just boosting enforcement on the rich, which is one piece of the puzzle, but there's so much more that really needs to be done in terms of modernizing (or at least getting us into the 21st century) that I can't believe will be meaningfully addressed in the future. I definitely hope it will, of course, but I don't know if any of the proposed fixes will even get off the ground, let alone be enough.
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May 15, 2021 20:31
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Xelkelvos posted:Unfortunately, the IRM is not exactly the most user friendly set of documents for even experts, let alone laypeople. And it's set up as a straight technical doc pulled from the 80 mixed with a little web 1.0 rather than something from even 2005. You'd also think it'd be easy to find timeframes, but without knowing exactly where to search and finding the specific line where it in amongst all of the text, it can get easy to miss. I've even requested they make something really basic like a summarized chart of all of the times frames for stuff in a single doc rather than spread out across the various IRMs. Yeah there was one guy on these here forums that was driven mad by his need to understand the IRMs and follow it exactly, even the parts that contradict the other parts.
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May 16, 2021 00:37
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IIRC he also came in with the attitude of "I'm going to modernize everything and revolutionize the IRS with my fresh thinking!", which... is not a useful attitude when you're coming in as a random tax-toucher. I think he was even angry at IDRS, which is somewhat understandable but is also like declaring war against the sea.
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May 16, 2021 00:39
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There are so many ways in which the IRS needs fixing it's easier to list the things it's able to do well. Enhancing enforcement against the rich tax-dodgers is like step 1 to bring in enough money to start fixing the other problems with the agency and get it at least updated if not modernized.sullat posted:Yeah there was one guy on these here forums that was driven mad by his need to understand the IRMs and follow it exactly, even the parts that contradict the other parts. Those were pretty funny posts, and yeah there was no chance he'd fix anything at the entry level. One serious issue that became real obvious to me fast is that to get to be a higher up within the organization who could actually change things, you have to be able to come to grips with the system as it is and work with it long enough to get used to it; this is the kind of thing that breeds Stockholm Syndrome explosively, so my bet is that it will take investment for quite a while from the top-down (i.e. more than one or two presidents' worth) before resistance to changes that could make things easier goes away. Sadly, this also means the chances that we'll see it really happen are slim unless it starts hurting the rich or the poor start protesting poor IRS treatment en masse instead of shouting "literally everyone else I know in my state got their money, why the hell aren't you giving me mine??" to a schlub behind a desk in his pjs.
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May 16, 2021 01:01
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sullat posted:Yeah there was one guy on these here forums that was driven mad by his need to understand the IRMs and follow it exactly, even the parts that contradict the other parts. Nah, he was like that before.
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May 16, 2021 01:27
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I didn’t think I’d fix things at my level at all, I did massively underestimate the level of dysfunction. I’m still getting dividends from being able to share IRS anecdotes in regulatory discussions.
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May 16, 2021 01:57
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It really is awesome how in order to have any chance at impacting your agency you have to fit perfectly into your cog slot for long enough that you probably lose the passion for fixing the things you hated at the beginning. Or maybe that is just me still being able to remember where I was sitting when I got the e-mail denying my application for the "emerging leaders" program, the same week as someone who was not even done with her Ph.D. and had precisely zero creative ideas had been featured as a rising star in our internal newsletter for bringing such an amazing set of academic skills to the agency. To be fair she was a pretty good person and it probably IS amazing to be an academic in government who has zero interest in using your critical mind to savage everything around you
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May 16, 2021 03:31
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It's a feature of the system. Things are designed to be as resistant to change as possible, because you don't want each new admin just packing all the agencies and shifting the entire structure with each election.
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May 16, 2021 03:40
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Antivehicular posted:IIRC he also came in with the attitude of "I'm going to modernize everything and revolutionize the IRS with my fresh thinking!", which... is not a useful attitude when you're coming in as a random tax-toucher. I think he was even angry at IDRS, which is somewhat understandable but is also like declaring war against the sea. Yeah, that's definitely a recipe for disappointment. Ignatius M. Meen posted:There are so many ways in which the IRS needs fixing it's easier to list the things it's able to do well. Enhancing enforcement against the rich tax-dodgers is like step 1 to bring in enough money to start fixing the other problems with the agency and get it at least updated if not modernized. This is also quite fair enough! I mean, if you start getting into strategic dissonance between different teams and the difficulty of reading subsections of the IRM, you're gonna lose a lot more people than just focusing on that key issue. Toshimo posted:It's a feature of the system. Things are designed to be as resistant to change as possible, because you don't want each new admin just packing all the agencies and shifting the entire structure with each election. It's frustrating, for sure, but I'm hoping that I'll start appreciating it more for what it was with time than being upset that it wasn't what I thought it should be. There were some things I really loved about it and I learned some great lessons that I'll take with me for the rest of my career! I think.
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May 16, 2021 04:40
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Howard Phillips posted:Not necessarily. You can try to negotiate for the highest step, if they are not willing to increase your grade. You'd need to show them your offer letter as justification for your negotiation. GS-11/12 government position, Corps of Engineers.
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May 16, 2021 04:52
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Not for nothing, but I hit 1 mil in my TSP this week. I'm not bragging, just begging you all to fully fund as much as you can instead of stuff you don't need. I put grade/step increases into it and didn't buy the latest phone, PC or TV or vacation in Europe. I also have IRAs for my wife and I as well with the same philosophy. For context, Ill have 21 years plus 9 military in Fed this summer and started as a GS 7 making about 32k per year. Hope I don't sound like a baby Boomer. I'm gen x. E: At least fully fund a Roth to matching. I have taken my family to Europe twice, but the second time was after brexit passed and flights/hotels were dirt cheap. First time was same, flights were like 350 each. Evil SpongeBob fucked around with this message at 05:10 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 05:04
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I put enough into my TSP to max out the matching, but no more than that and definitely no IRA's on top of it. Sure, I could have a million when I retire. Also, I might die before retirement is even an option for me. My dad and his dad both died in their 60's. Like, I should have a good amount ready when I do retire, and I hope I do, but I'm not putting everything into that. Balance is important. Also I recognize that I'm well-off enough to even have a choice to make here
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May 16, 2021 05:22
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:the poor start protesting poor IRS treatment en masse instead of shouting "literally everyone else I know in my state got their money, why the hell aren't you giving me mine??" to a schlub behind a desk in his pjs. Hey. now, I put on pants sometimes.
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May 16, 2021 06:43
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Toshimo posted:It's a feature of the system. Things are designed to be as resistant to change as possible, because you don't want each new admin just packing all the agencies and shifting the entire structure with each election. I've found that it's possible to make big changes, but only when you skunk works something (like secretly automate a big part of the job) on the side and surprise people with something already completed, don't respect the chain, and be willing to let idiots steal your work and claim it as their own once you've announced it.
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May 16, 2021 07:08
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Xelkelvos posted:Hey. now, I put on pants sometimes. congratulations, you're a dork. i prefer to be a schlub in my comfy comfy pjs while working from home, thanks
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May 16, 2021 07:12
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El Mero Mero posted:I've found that it's possible to make big changes, but only when you skunk works something (like secretly automate a big part of the job) on the side and surprise people with something already completed, don't respect the chain, and be willing to let idiots steal your work and claim it as their own once you've announced it. I'd rather die.
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May 16, 2021 14:36
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Evil SpongeBob posted:Not for nothing, but I hit 1 mil in my TSP this week. I'm not bragging, just begging you all to fully fund as much as you can instead of stuff you don't need. I put grade/step increases into it and didn't buy the latest phone, PC or TV or vacation in Europe. I also have IRAs for my wife and I as well with the same philosophy. For context, Ill have 21 years plus 9 military in Fed this summer and started as a GS 7 making about 32k per year. Congrats, it's great to hear successful stories like that. I'm 35 and I have about $500k net worth. Half in IRA and TSP, and rest in a taxable Vanguard account. I started as an E-1 enlisted in the Navy straight out of high school. I did get a degree and a masters along the way but haven't started earning anything decent until 30. Slow and steady accumulation and keeping cost of living does work. quote:Do I just write long run-on sentences that hit all the buzzwords so it trips a keyword search? Or do I just literally pack a page on back full of words like web pages used to do to cheat meta tags? Depending on ears of experience, I would aim for 3-5 pages for a government resume. Use the resume builder to get started if starting from scratch. Definitely address every posting specific requirements in your resume. You need to trigger the auto filter successfully and also pass first level human screening with easy to read formatting and narrative.
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May 16, 2021 15:55
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I write a 1st person narrative for each position I’ve had. “In this position, I was responsible for xxx.” I make sure this section includes some mention of all the job duties the listing shows. After that, I include a section of “My major successes in this position include xxx,” where I really boast. It’s been a successful layout.
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May 16, 2021 16:33
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Evil SpongeBob posted:Not for nothing, but I hit 1 mil in my TSP this week. I'm not bragging, just begging you all to fully fund as much as you can instead of stuff you don't need. I put grade/step increases into it and didn't buy the latest phone, PC or TV or vacation in Europe. I also have IRAs for my wife and I as well with the same philosophy. For context, Ill have 21 years plus 9 military in Fed this summer and started as a GS 7 making about 32k per year. Awesome dude.
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May 16, 2021 17:35
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:congratulations, you're a dork. i prefer to be a schlub in my comfy comfy pjs while working from home, thanks I didn't say I kept them on 
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May 16, 2021 18:56
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So i daily cruise usajobs, and i found a pretty perfect job for me (still a bit underemployed because they're only asking for a BA, but whatev). It wants me to write a very specific form of cover letter including "Concise, point-by-point responses to all requirements and qualifications listed above" Now, for skills-based reqs, like: "Strong and demonstrated ability to present information clearly and concisely through memos, reports, briefings, and other presentations" , or, "Advanced research, analytical, and evaluative skills, including the ability to synthesize and analyze large amounts of disparate data on emerging and/or controversial issues.", I think i get what I need: i list relevant work or educational experience, and brief prose tying it together. But, what do I do for knowledge-based reqs, like "Knowledge of U.S. trade and economic policies and goals pertaining to China and Taiwan and, more broadly, to the Indo-Pacific."? Like I really know that stuff inside and out, but i don't have work experience pertaining to it. Last time this job was posted, I wrote a long, extended response summarizing my views on us trade and economic policy in the Pacific, but i didn't get the job. Was that why? I will never know, so... "Reading the news, talking to people who own businesses, and applying the theoretical fundamentals to real-life events" sounds really unprofessional imo, any tips on translating it to HR-friendly language? My graduate coursework is all like premodern history, and this would be my first job after getting my degree, and "watching a lot of YouTube videos and arguing about politics over the internet' sounds even worse. I suppose I could list individual books, but it feels silly to choose one or two, and just dumping a list of dozens of books feels like it doesn't actually communicate anything to whoever's looking at my application. And you, know, looking at what i just wrote, i don't think that's too far from something I'd be ok with submitting; the bigger problem is that id essentially have to rewrite that three times: "Knowledge of international economics and the application of economic principles in U.S. bilateral and multilateral trade, financial and economic relations. Knowledge of China's economic policies and practices, including the drivers, actors, and conduct of China's economic policies. Knowledge of U.S. trade and economic policies and goals pertaining to China and Taiwan and, more broadly, to the Indo-Pacific." Anyone have any advice on what form of response will not get my application tossed out immediately? Almond Crunch fucked around with this message at 19:16 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 18:19
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Almond Crunch posted:"Reading the news, talking to people who own businesses, and applying the theoretical fundamentals to real-life events" sounds really unprofessional imo, any tips on translating it to HR-friendly language? My graduate coursework is all like premodern history, and this would be my first job after getting my degree, a nd "watching a lot of YouTube videos and arguing about politics over the internet' sounds even worse. I suppose I could list individual books, but it feels silly to choose one or two, and just dumping a list of dozens of books feels like it doesn't actually communicate anything to whoever's looking at my application. So you were a consultant? Because it sounds like you were a consultant.
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May 17, 2021 18:53
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TheMadMilkman posted:So you were a consultant? Because it sounds like you were a consultant. I routinely apply to consulting firms that specialize in Asian markets, and they don't call me back either(
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May 17, 2021 19:15
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Good job, Library of Congress, on finally getting through those applications. I applied on October 19, 2020, and just got called to interview, so literally a full seven months. No wonder everyone says to apply and just forget about it. I DID forget.
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May 19, 2021 16:09
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