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Octy posted:I turned 23 the other day and I still haven't accomplished anything (and probably never will) compared to Scipio or Pompey or any of those guys. 
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Feb 28, 2014 22:26
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Don't fret, Harrison Ford was just a carpenter at age 30. So was Jesus, for that matter.
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Feb 28, 2014 22:40
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You guys should lead a campaign to conquer the far east, further than Alexander even! This will never go wrong.
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Mar 1, 2014 00:52
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Strategic Tea posted:You guys should lead a campaign to conquer the far east, further than Alexander even! It'll all be well and good for such a goon project until someone ends up with molten gold poured down his throat.
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Mar 1, 2014 01:01
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I'm sure it was written somewhere that every great ruler/general who visited Alexander's tomb was awed by how much "greater" he was than them, up until Augustus came along and apparently felt like his own accomplishments equaled Alexander's? I also vaguely recall something about Augustus accidentally breaking the nose off the corpse? 
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Mar 1, 2014 01:58
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I think I remember the story as the attendants were like, "hey, here's some other macedonian tom-" and Augustus just went, referring to Alexander's tomb, "I came here to see a king, not corpses."
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Mar 1, 2014 02:16
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Berke Negri posted:I think I remember the story as the attendants were like, "hey, here's some other macedonian tom-" and Augustus just went, referring to Alexander's tomb, "I came here to see a king, not corpses." Nah, he said that about Ptolmeic dead guy's tomb. He was there to see Alexander's.
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Mar 1, 2014 02:22
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SkySteak posted:It'll all be well and good for such a goon project until someone ends up with molten gold poured down his throat.
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Mar 1, 2014 02:53
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Rockopolis posted:Or worse, bitcoins! Reddit delenda est. 
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Mar 1, 2014 03:06
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Question: why did bronze shields fall out of use? As near as I can tell, wood braced with iron was used by the Romans onward. Sheets of iron or steel don't seem to have been used to my knowledge.
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Mar 1, 2014 03:33
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Ynglaur posted:Question: why did bronze shields fall out of use? As near as I can tell, wood braced with iron was used by the Romans onward. Sheets of iron or steel don't seem to have been used to my knowledge. Dunno, heavy? unwieldy? Expensive? If I recall correctly, Romans adapted their shield from the Gauls and after fighting the Iberians they reinforced them with iron because the falcata cuted through them. The one big advantage of bronze is it's resistance to rust. Octy posted:I turned 23 the other day and I still haven't accomplished anything (and probably never will) compared to Scipio or Pompey or any of those guys. True romans valued experience and age over anything else about their leaders, no wonder their main legislative body, the Senate, was named after Senex (elder), romans liked their wrinkles and white hair in their leaders, in contrast with the greeks of the time, who liked to imagine their leaders as young geniuses. The 40's was the best part in life for a high-class roman. Also, gently caress Pompey, his entire career was illegal.
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Mar 1, 2014 04:04
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SkySteak posted:It'll all be well and good for such a goon project until someone ends up with molten gold poured down his throat.  Because if there is something that is cooler than Romans, its Post-Post Apocalyptic pseudo Romans.
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Mar 1, 2014 05:34
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From what I've read, the reinforced plywood shield was just about as strong, lighter, and much easier/cheaper to mass produce. An all iron shield would be too heavy to use. The shield is a weapon too, not just protection. A light shield with good protective cover and a metal boss to slam people is a good basic design and stays in use for a long time.
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Mar 1, 2014 06:10
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Grand Fromage posted:From what I've read, the reinforced plywood shield was just about as strong, lighter, and much easier/cheaper to mass produce. An all iron shield would be too heavy to use. The shield is a weapon too, not just protection. A light shield with good protective cover and a metal boss to slam people is a good basic design and stays in use for a long time. Most armies just used shields to catch arrows. That's why the Persian army went up against the Spartans with wicker shields, because that was good enough to stop most arrows. Two knights wailing on each other while holding shields is pretty much Hollywood storytelling.
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Mar 1, 2014 09:52
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thrakkorzog posted:Most armies just used shields to catch arrows. That's why the Persian army went up against the Spartans with wicker shields, because that was good enough to stop most arrows. Two knights wailing on each other while holding shields is pretty much Hollywood storytelling. Tell that to the vikings. Or the Greeks, or, you know, Romans. Even 'bronze' shields were often just bronze skins over leather or wood bases.
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Mar 1, 2014 11:17
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Grand Fromage posted:From what I've read, the reinforced plywood shield was just about as strong, lighter, and much easier/cheaper to mass produce. An all iron shield would be too heavy to use. The shield is a weapon too, not just protection. A light shield with good protective cover and a metal boss to slam people is a good basic design and stays in use for a long time. That's what I thought, but it begs the question: why was bronze used at all if wood was so superior? I would think that wood would have been more accessible and used before something requiring that much metallurgy.
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Mar 1, 2014 13:19
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Ynglaur posted:That's what I thought, but it begs the question: why was bronze used at all if wood was so superior? I would think that wood would have been more accessible and used before something requiring that much metallurgy. Totally guessing here, but wood doesn't bend but does split/tear/puncture along the grain. Bronze doesn't split but does bend. Cover one with the other and you might have a more useful shield. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't wood shields with an iron boss sometimes have an iron rim too? If so, that would help stop chop blows which would split the wood shield like, well, firewood.
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Mar 1, 2014 14:21
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I do wonder if wood shields with metal rims and bosses won out over all metal designs not for some intrinsic superiority, but because it was good enough and so, so much lighter. After all, in an army on campaign, you're going to spend way more time just lugging the thing around then you ever will in battle. Plus having it lighter means you can use it more nimbly outside of a phalanx, plus it's got to be easier to replace.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:08
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I don't want to interrupt this awesome shield chat  , but I've got a question I've been ruminating on for a few days.How stratified was personal mobility during Roman times? I ask because it recently dawned on me that the major city I live in seems to be composed of 7/8ths transplants from other parts of the country and 1/8th or so locals. I imagine that the allure of life in the big city brought transplants in from all corners of the empire seeking to eke out a living much like it does here - but I feel like I could be biased with my modern perspective here because I want to think people a few thousand years ago weren't too terribly different from us except in technology, and cultural mores. So what would the make-up be of a major city be in terms of locals, transplants, expats? Do we have any census or other information that would tell us anything like that? frogge fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 23:19
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I'm not even sure we have the data for such a thing, but what I can imagine is it wasn't too static in terms of people moving: the majority of the rural population did their thing, but anyone willing to make a break for it could have ended up any of the big cities along the mediterranean. For predictable results. Your average person probably at best would become respectable trade family or marry into one. Romans wrote a lot about evil degenerate nouveau riche (freedmans!!) but those were probably Horatio Alger stories than the norm. Modern society is pretty stratified and set, and that's with much better access to education and transportation and resources. So think that but worse. Every now and then someone made it big but the majority of populations stayed put.
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Mar 2, 2014 01:58
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bobthedinosaur posted:I don't want to interrupt this awesome shield chat I think geographically, the big urban areas were pretty big draws and the legions moved people around a lot. But your average farmer or even craftsman type is going to have their whole livelyhood tied up in a geographical place. They're not moving unless poo poo hits the fan and their land become flat untenable.
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Mar 2, 2014 06:10
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Those shields are glued with animal glue, that means they fall apart if not protected properly (heat and high humidity are really bad for anything glued with hide or bone glue). The leather not only serves as reinforcement, but also as a protective layer for the wood sheets. You could treat it with linseed oil, fat or wax for example. Water resistant glues and perfect sealants were far, far away in the future. Same problem goes for the linothorax. I kind of want to reconstruct a shield like that. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Mar 2, 2014 |
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Mar 2, 2014 06:35
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I suspect bronze shields are stronger, but they'd be a whole lot harder to make and more expensive. When you're mass-producing arms for a whole army rather than everyone bringing their own gear, you have other considerations. Even if the wood shield is marginally inferior, you can make a lot more of them and mass-produced equipment can be somewhat disposable. Of all the pieces of gear, the shield would be the one most likely to get hosed up so I suspect they just planned for it.
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Mar 2, 2014 07:33
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Ynglaur posted:In the US military at least, Lieutenants serve two purposes: A minor correction from a couple of pages ago, but a US officer (O-1 through O-3) is commissioned by the Secretary of Defense in the name of the President. Congress is not mentioned on the commission or in the oath of office at all.
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Mar 2, 2014 17:20
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Godholio posted:A minor correction from a couple of pages ago, but a US officer (O-1 through O-3) is commissioned by the Secretary of Defense in the name of the President. Congress is not mentioned on the commission or in the oath of office at all. Not quite correct. The Secretary of Defense is only authorized to do so by an act of Congress. Historically it's been a very pro forma exercise, generally bundled with other administrative items, but it technically takes an act of Congress to make a Second Lieutenant/Ensign/etc. You are correct that the Congress is not mentioned in the oath of office at all. It's an odd dichotomy: on the one hand, officers swear to obey the executive branch ("all legal orders" et al.); on the other, they are ultimately accountable to the People. I won't pretend it always works (see: Abu Ghraib).
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Mar 3, 2014 00:57
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Question: when was the last known temple to Plutus vacated/destroyed/etc.? Are there any active groups or temples dedicated to the worship of Roman gods active today?
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Mar 3, 2014 23:07
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There sure are! Here's some at Aquincum, which is in modern day Budapest. I'm sure it is not at all awkward when they tell people that "No, we are not reenactors, this is our religion." Pretty sure those are Americans too. And because I had never heard of Aquincum before, here's another picture. This time it's the ruins of it's military amphitheater.  Aquincum was located in Pannonia and was originally settled by celts. After Trajan's Dacian wars the legion II Adiutrix (second rescuer legion) was stationed there and it became the capital of Pannonia Inferior. Located on the Danube, it was an important part of Rome's defenses. It's also speculated that Marcus Aurelius may have written part of his Meditations there.
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Mar 4, 2014 06:33
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Wasn't that Carnuntum? e: Nm, that was the third book. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 06:49
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JaucheCharly posted:Wasn't that Carnuntum? Apropos Carnuntum, good time to link to the 3D-reconstruction of the excavated Ludus gladiatorium there, one of the biggest Ludi found to date.
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Mar 4, 2014 09:15
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Mustang posted:There sure are! Here's some at Aquincum, which is in modern day Budapest. Were these people brought up as polytheists or did they convert from monotheism, or just nothing? As a dirty atheist who has never believed in anything, it fascinates me how the ancients went from believing in multiple gods (even if they may have just worshipped one in particular) to dismissing the existence of any other deity. Obviously, it wasn't an overnight process and Christianity evolved in its exact beliefs (e.g. Donatism), and there were likely plenty of people, particularly in the latter half of the fourth century, who 'converted' because of imperial patronage, and brought up their children like that, but it's still remarkable it happened in the first place, and on such a wide scale.
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Mar 4, 2014 10:19
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Decius posted:Apropos Carnuntum, good time to link to the 3D-reconstruction of the excavated Ludus gladiatorium there, one of the biggest Ludi found to date. That's great. I've been there a few times, and the gate there is really impressive. It's weird that such an influential settlement vanishes and never regains any importance (ok, geopolitical change and stinky Magyars raiding the place to hell). You can walk around there and it's just fields and the delta of the danube and the few things that they excavated. Just a rural area where you'd never set foot if it wasn't for the roman ruins. Going over the autobahn from Vienna, you get an idea why they built the city there. The hill you see on the right of the picture is the Pfaffenberg. I didn't find a picture from another perspective, but looking back from miles away, it dominates the area. Kinda sticks out. The place where Carnuntum was situated is at the gate into the open plains to the S and SE, but also to control everything between the Leitha and the small Karpathians, while also controlling the danube. The climate is very pleasant. I'd build a villa there if I had money.
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Mar 4, 2014 12:08
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I never really looked into the gladiatorial schools before. It is really striking to me that even their practice spaces are amphitheatrical -- practice doing certain moves that allow different parts of the crowd to get a good view? Practice dealing with being near the curved walls? Modeling having the crowd "above" you on all sides? "That's just how we built 'em"?
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Mar 4, 2014 15:23
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homullus posted:I never really looked into the gladiatorial schools before. It is really striking to me that even their practice spaces are amphitheatrical -- practice doing certain moves that allow different parts of the crowd to get a good view? Practice dealing with being near the curved walls? Modeling having the crowd "above" you on all sides? "That's just how we built 'em"? I know nothing about this, but I do know that people will travel across their state to watch football teams practice during the pre-season camps. They could have sold seats to watch the gladiators train.
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Mar 4, 2014 15:26
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I know nothing about this, but I do know that people will travel across their state to watch football teams practice during the pre-season camps. They could have sold seats to watch the gladiators train. Also, they guys were entertainers, they probably needed to learn and train how to keep the crowd in a good mood and how to do their moves to please the viewers/train and gauge reactions, so a smaller version of the ring with viewers was probably helpful - like doing dress rehearsal in theater productions.
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Mar 4, 2014 15:42
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I know nothing about this, but I do know that people will travel across their state to watch football teams practice during the pre-season camps. They could have sold seats to watch the gladiators train. Oh, for sure. What's interesting to me is that they bothered to make a tiny amphitheater to practice in, as opposed to a theater or straight benches. Theaters back then had that semicircular shape, and amphitheaters (Gk. amphi- "both, on both sides, all around" is cognate with Latin ambi-, like ambidextrous "both right hands", so an amphitheater is a theater on both sides) gave you sight lines from all sides. They didn't HAVE to do the little practice space that way, but did. How come?
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Mar 4, 2014 15:45
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They didn't always. I'm pretty sure the school next to the Colosseum has a semi-circle theater. E: Welp, google image searched and looks like it's an amphitheater actually. I dunno. Possibly training for events with chariots or something?
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Mar 4, 2014 15:49
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At a guess it was probably so gladiators could get used to fighting in realistic conditions, like people have said keeping the crowds entertained was their main job and it would be useful to know how people are actually seeing your moves. Another point, that I'm pretty much guessing at, is that I doubt crowds at the Games were as well behaved as even modern football crowds (and the ultras in Rome nowadays are pretty prone to loving things up on the pitch). I'd imagine knowing how to take a bucket of oyster shells to the back of the head and other awkward angles without totally losing focus on the fight was a basic but important part of gladiator training.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:08
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It's not particularly large, you wouldn't have much fun driving a chariot in there.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:08
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The realism makes sense. I wonder if schools also did private shows to raise some money on the side. It makes sense logically.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:15
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I love how there's such a modern sensibility behind gladiatorial matches*. If you told me gladiators entered to theme music and gave interviews where they called each other out or thanked Jupiter for their last win, I'd buy it. *more accurately, there's such an ancient sensibility behind modern sports, I guess e. Now I'm imagining some kind of period piece film like Moneyball meets Ben Hur. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 17:08
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