|
redbackground posted:Sidebar: I'm halfway through the Omega Men trade, and it completely owns bones. Tom King just nails everything perfectly, it's damned impressive. So good man. So good. I pretty much force that book on people at work now.
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:33 |
|
|
pubic works project posted:I liked Superman Reborn I liked it, but I feel it fixed an issue that didn't need fixing. Like, Superman is from another universe and he's taking the place of the Superman of that universe who died. Simple, if weird. And I get why they did it too, because Reborn's whole "the N52 was the same universe as always but with 10 years stolen" narrative only works if there was only ever one Superman. But in doing that they raised a bunch of questions and continuity problems. The story that was designed to make things simpler made things more complicated, which kinda sucks. All that said, I still think it was a fun ride.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 17:56
|
|
|
TwoPair posted:But in doing that they raised a bunch of questions and continuity problems. The story that was designed to make things simpler made things more complicated
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
People just wouldn't accept Superman having red boots again without a four issue story showing him merging with another Superman who already had red boots
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 18:29
|
|
|
The real issue is that absolutely no one writing the New 52 2011-2016 was operating under the assumption that the "New" DC universe was the same original universe, just with "time and love stolen" or whatever the vague line is. So there were five years of comics written in a lot of ways (not the least of which being the whole Convergence/Old Lois & Clark stuff) written that doesn't actually line up with this New Narrative. Probably worse, there are STILL a bunch of books after Rebirth that don't really seem to be fully on board with this concept, as vague as it is. I really do kind of believe that the "solution" here raises more questions than answers. Like, did all of the N52 Superman/Lois stuff happen? Is the idea that everyone who isn't Clark/Lois/Jon remember there only ever being one Superman/Lois? Does this mean they don't remember [N52] Superman being outed as Clark Kent? Does Batman remember going to [old]Lois and Clark's wedding? Does Wonder Woman remember being [N52's] Superman's girlfriend? Did Doomsday kill him repeatedly, but he just somehow forgot about the first one the second time? Also shouldn't this invalidate the entire Lex Luthor storyline in Action, which was all about Superman coming to grips that this isn't HIS Luthor, so he can't hold the terrible actions of Old Lex Luthor against the new one? Except now he knows they're the same Luthor. And maybe this means Superboy is still secretly Lex and Clark's love child? Or is the New Superboy not the Old Superboy, because of the stolen love?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
I'm starting to get the impression that people just have a kneejerk response of irritation to anything "complicated" about stories, despite the fact that a complicated story is not the same as "not making sense" or "hard to understand." The whole original premise of Superdad and Mama Lois was complicated, but they managed to make it work through sheer quality writing and the fact that it was, at its heart, a really great concept. I love complicated stories. I love seeing all the bits and pieces and lore at play and how they finally fit together. Of course good writing takes precedence over everything, blah da yada etc, but there's something rewarding about seeing someone tackling an incredibly challenging premise and seeing it through to the end.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 20:26
|
|
|
Over complicating a story is a sign of bad writing yes. Writers that are chained to it making okay stories out of it doesn't change that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
No, but when making things more complicated makes things make way less sense, it's not a positive. Complicated stories with lots going on can be interesting and good, but they have to maintain some internal consistency. This is extraordinarily difficult to do in a shared universe, particularly where there's not really one person in control of the wheel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
I don't know if you're talking about me, but there is a world of difference between "complicated" and "confusing", "complex" and "unclear". There are tons and tons of (sometimes overly) complicated or complex stories that people like in comic books. I would argue that Superman Reborn and the whole Rebirth "Dr. Manhattan steals the love out of the DCU because Standards and Practices stole his Dick" storylines are not only complicated (fine) but also needlessly *complicating* and unclear, confusing, raising more questions than they answer, etc. The idea that Old Superman and Old Lois and New Superman and New Lois are somehow linked is fine. The idea that after dying both New People somehow continue to exist in floating energy ball forms, awesome, whatever. But the idea that their histories have now merged and there have always been just One True Superman and One True Lois is the sort of poo poo that DC did after every previous Crisis, and the sort of thing that goes poorly even if you have a longterm gameplan and set all of the ground rules, which DC almost definitely did not do here (or in 2011, or 2006, or 1994, or 1986, and the last two were more or less exactly the same people so I guess we should assume they've learned their lesson this time FOR REAL?) There's a coherent narrative for what happened internally in the DCU, that Old L&C lived their lives as depicted (with footnotes for retcons) from 1987-2011, and all of those stories count, and then Old L&C got kidnapped by Braniac and survived the death of their reality and then a new reality formed in 2011 and New L&C did all their New Stuff and then at some point Old L&C hitched a ride onto their planet. Later New L&C die, so the old ones take their spot in public. That is complex, but makes sense. If you accept that actually there is only One True Reality and The Invisible Blue Hand of Fate somehow stepped in and ripped Lois and Clark in half in 2011 in order to Steal Love and Legacy Away from the world, okay sure, that makes comic sense. It's kind of needlessly complex to do that and then take the Loving Part of Lois and Clark and force them to have been kidnapped by Brainiac so no one finds them except when they do, but I can follow that as a narrative device. The same thing that happened to "New" Lois and "New" Clark (their realities were altered so they have no memory of their previous lives, their relationships torn asunder, their lives changed radically) also happened to conservatively half of the other heroes, villains, and other prominent characters that exist in the DCU, though. Are we to assume that *maybe* this means that somewhere there's a Loving Old Universe half of Barry Allen and Iris Allen and Wally West and Linda Park and Lex Luthor and Lana Lang and Pete Ross and Jimmy Olsen and Amanda Waller and Bart Allen and Connor Kent and Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain and Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown and Donna Troy and Starfire and Deadshot and Ralph Dibny and Sue Dibney and Oliver Queen and Dinah Lance and Roy Harper and etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. because all of them have been altered in similar ways to "New" Lois and Clark: they had an old existence where they loved each other and had a lot of shared experiences, but then all of those experiences were ripped away from them by an unseen force. BUT in reality, those experiences were turned into a separate half of themselves. If that is how this Cosmic Experience works, shouldn't all of those people have their own "Old" versions salted off somewhere? And then when you shove these two parts together, what does that mean? Maybe there's a super elegant solution to all of this, but past history shows the solution is essenitally to go "shut the gently caress up, enjoy this comic" and then sort of ad-hoc make something up when you have to do a story that requires people having met/never met or something happening or existing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 20:45
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I'm starting to get the impression that people just have a kneejerk response of irritation to anything "complicated" about stories, despite the fact that a complicated story is not the same as "not making sense" or "hard to understand." The whole original premise of Superdad and Mama Lois was complicated, but they managed to make it work through sheer quality writing and the fact that it was, at its heart, a really great concept. The problem here is that complicated isn't the same as good. A complicated story that is well constructed can be good. A story that is complicated because it's trying to build a puzzle out of twenty different pieces half of which got thrown up on by the dog isn't inherently good. Sometimes you can make good things out of the latter but even then those same good things would likely be better if they were more focused and constructed instead of frantically patching things together.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 20:46
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The problem here is that complicated isn't the same as good. I don't know what's "frantically patching things together" about Superman Reborn. There was a mystery involving Superdad -- things didn't make sense, as the kids say -- and they took almost an entire year teasing things out and slowly solving the mystery. I don't understand why people think this is more complicated than the status quo we had before last month, when Superdad's existence literally did not make sense with the revelations from DC Rebrith, but now it does. Something different happened to Lois and Clark than what happened to the rest of the DCU when the New 52 happened, because Lois and Clark are very special. There.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I don't know what's "frantically patching things together" about Superman Reborn. There was a mystery involving Superdad -- things didn't make sense, as the kids say -- and they took almost an entire year teasing things out and slowly solving the mystery. BrianWilly posted:Something different happened to Lois and Clark than what happened to the rest of the DCU when the New 52 happened, because Lois and Clark are very special. What if their sex is actually Pandora? There.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:03
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:The impression I'm getting from these posts is that the reason Superman Reborn isn't good is because it's complicated. ... No? People have explained it in this thread multiple times. Superman Reborn is because it is slapdash and poorly considered. The actual answer to the big mystery is meh (and as pointed out raises a ton of questions about every other character in the Nu52, Superman wasn't the only one of his ilk) and the resolution makes almost no sense if you give it more than a few moment's thought. There isn't anything complicated about it. I don't not understand the mystery. BrianWilly posted:Something different happened to Lois and Clark than what happened to the rest of the DCU when the New 52 happened, because Lois and Clark are very special. Why are they special? "It's magic, I don't have to explain it" isn't actually something to aspire to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
Full disclosure if a little glowing ball shows up and merges with Jimmy Olsen and he goes "oh right! I hosed a bug! Well, you know, Forager isn't sexy any more, but it all fits." I will forgive this dumb story 100% Also if a little glowing ball hits Arsenal and one of his arms immediately falls off.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
I liked Superman Reborn because I like Mr. Mxyzptlk.Edge & Christian posted:Also if a little glowing ball hits Arsenal and one of his arms immediately falls off. Please
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I don't know what's "frantically patching things together" about Superman Reborn. There was a mystery involving Superdad -- things didn't make sense, as the kids say -- and they took almost an entire year teasing things out and slowly solving the mystery.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
Thinking about it, would it be that much more complicated to say that the current Superman and Lois were just unaffected by the time travel, but because time travel, there younger selves are still around doing New 52 stuff?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:18
|
|
|
My hot take is that reborn was not really necessary but it also was not a bad story or too complicated to follow
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 21:18
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3_VhmYmeH0 It's no KFC Crisis, but I'm glad their promotional crossover department are still weirdos.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
Teenage Fansub posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3_VhmYmeH0 Superman it is very weird that you're going on a date with Wonder Woman when you are and have always been a married man.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Why are they special? "It's magic, I don't have to explain it" isn't actually something to aspire to. Edge & Christian posted:It made perfect sense, why are you criticizing Superdad for being complicated? All joking aside, what was the mystery? What didn't make sense? What made less sense than the current status quo? In DC Rebirth, it's revealed that the New 52 Earth is the post-Crisis Earth. A character flat-out shows up on Superman's doorstep and says "You are not who you think you are." Their origin, as shown in Convergence, no longer made sense since there was already a Clark and Lois on this world which is actually their own, old world. Now it makes sense again. Edge & Christian posted:Did Superman ever gently caress Wonder Woman? Does he remember it? Does she? Maybe their sex is also a separate character, because it was very special sex. Are people going to whinge this much about not understanding very understandable continuity matters and needing to have painstaking overexplanations for every single little detail when the actual Dr. Manhattan event starts in a couple months? I'd just like to know beforehand.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Does someone seriously have to sit down and meticulously explain for us why Superman and Lois Lane are extra super duper special in the context of the DC Universe? Yes. You do. Why are Superman and Lois Lane special? I would actually like to have that explained. Even if you're going full Grant Morrison Meta Perspective I'd like to know why Superman and Lois Lane are special and not the other parts of the Superman mythos. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 22:44
|
|
|
I even hated the Annual that had Swamp Thing telling Superman that he was killing the planet because he couldn't get over his feelings for his old Earth.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Yes. You do. Why are Superman and Lois Lane special? I would actually like to have that explained. Even if you're going full Grant Morrison Meta Perspective I'd like to know why Superman and Lois Lane are special and not the other parts of the Superman mythos. Jimmy Olsen is a nice part of the mythos, but he's a side character. He's there to support Lois and Clark, not the other way around. If you need any more of a substantial explanation for why being the most iconic, enduring couple in comics makes them special, in-text, to the universe itself, then I suspect Rebirth might not be for you. May I suggest the New 52 instead? BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:They are the two most iconic characters in the DC universe besides Batman. They've been a narrative lynchpin of most major cosmic events for no reason besides the fact that they're Superman and Lois Lane. Entire universes, like Kingdom Come or Injustice or...say...the New 52, have gone askew because these two characters were separated or unable to be together. so why didn't this happen to batman
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:11
|
|
|
I think it's a little bit of a problem that if you're a new reader hopping on to Superman, you would have already had 17 issues to acclimatise to the weirdo other world Superman idea, and this sudden 'simplification' would be total whiplash. I think it's either to early or too late to have done it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:18
|
|
|
Alaois posted:so why didn't this happen to batman Like, in total seriousness, if you actually do want to gently caress up a universe in the DC schema, the easiest way is to separate Superman from his human connection, aka Lois. If we consider Superdad and Loismom the parts of each other that was, well, their actual relationship and connection, then it's interesting that they were the parts who were excised from the New 52. None of this is mentioned in the comics (yet), it's just interesting to think about. Instead of, y'know, just complaining about it. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:19
|
|
|
It would be nice if Cassandra and Stephanie suddenly remembered being Batgirl and Black Bat, and Robin and Batgirl, respectively
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:19
|
|
|
Alaois posted:so why didn't this happen to batman Batman didn't have any years taken because he was in the middle of a storyline in 2011.  Now poor Nightwing, on the other hand, had his color blue stolen and replaced with a red outfit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:24
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:They are the two most iconic characters in the DC universe besides Batman. Lex Luthor. Your argument doesn't hold any narrative weight. You're just saying "they're special because they're special." There's no good reason why Superman and Lois Lane would be special from a meta-perspective but other parts of the mythos wouldn't. (where you go "W-well, Jimmy Olson isn't THAT important" despite the fact that What Ifs have often put a lot of weight on Jimmy too because otherwise your argument falls apart.) BrianWilly posted:If you need any more of a substantial explanation for why being the most iconic, enduring couple in comics makes them special, in-text, to the universe itself, then I suspect Rebirth might not be for you. May I suggest the New 52 instead? "Why can't you just enjoy something! Also if you don't agree with my made up bullshit explanation you must want Nu52 instead!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:25
|
|
|
I can literally feel the amount of shits I give about your pointless pedantry decreasing as we proceed, but let me just reiterate that if the point was to make this universe less loving and functional, why would Lex Luthor be changed?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I can literally feel the amount of shits I give about your pointless pedantry decreasing as we proceed, but let me just reiterate that if the point was the make this universe less loving and functional, why would Lex Luthor be changed? Funny. I can feel the amount of shits I give about you being throat-deep on corporate cock and whining about how mean it is people don't agree with your literal headcanon vanishing as well. The mere fact your entire argument is "they didn't say this but what if they did?!" and "Stop being so mean to comic writers" shows that you actually don't have any argument.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:30
|
|
|
It's because I said the word "iconic," isn't it? Sorry, I know how you feel about the "I" word.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
gentlemen please if you want to have a pointless slapfight the marvel thread is right over there the dc thread is for losing arms only
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:35
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:It's because I said the word "iconic," isn't it? Sorry, I know how you feel about the "I" word. No, it's because you actually aren't making any argument. You're insisting that "Superman and Lois are SPECIAL" is a thing but without actually wanting to back it up or justify it in any way that doesn't fit your own very specific and narrow reading. It's why you're conveniently talking about iconic but pretending Jimmy Olson doesn't count because he's 'merely a supporting character' because as we know best friends don't count as being important to someone. The actual answer is that they had two Lois and Clarks and wanted to melt them together and light reset the universe and so they did it, and since there weren't bonus Jimmies or Bonus Lexes around they didn't get melded with anyone. It's a slapdash attempt to simplify the universe, not a glorious metacommentary on the Superman mythos, which is why it doesn't touch on any of the mythos.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Anybody reading Deathstroke honestly thought they had really casually killed off Power Girl? I felt dumb for thinking Priest would actually kill a character like that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:40
|
|
|
Edge & Christian posted:Good stuff Everything you described is part of a major reason for me why Final Crisis didn't work in the first place because it literally tried to do exactly what Superman Reborn did and made a loving mess of something that was a manageable mess. Space goatse or no space goatse. I am glad that Venom is making unaccredited guest appearances on Superman and am looking forward to Batman's new "Black suit"
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
Jiro posted:Everything you described is part of a major reason for me why Final Crisis didn't work in the first place because it literally tried to do exactly what Superman Reborn did and made a loving mess of something that was a manageable mess. Space goatse or no space goatse. You know I am legitimately surprised we never got a "Batman has a magic/space/whatever Spawn Knockoff Suit" period.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:46
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You know I am legitimately surprised we never got a "Batman has a magic/space/whatever Spawn Knockoff Suit" period. He actually did after Damian died, in the excellent Tomasi and Gleeson Batman and *insert guest here* book we get Gleeson drawing the Hell Bat armor, and it's backstory of being forged in the sun by Superman, and the other Leaguers adding stuff to it, all accumulating to Batman standing toe to toe against Darkseid on Apokolips shoving a Chaos shard into his armor for a power boost and firing off a Bat shaped Uni-Beam and kicking Darkseid's rear end.   But if you meant like a long term fancy suit? Nah they've really only been for certain situations and contingencies etc etc because Batman plans for blah blah blah blah blah Jiro fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:33 |
|
|
Jiro posted:He actually did after Damian died, in the excellent Tomasi and Gleeson Batman and *insert guest here* book we get Gleeson drawing the Hell Bat armor, and it's backstory of being forged in the sun by Superman, and the other Leaguers adding stuff to it, all accumulating to Batman standing toe to toe against Darkseid on Apokolips shoving a Chaos shard into his armor for a power boost and firing off a Bat shaped Uni-Beam and kicking Darkseid's rear end. Oh yeah, I know Batman has had his moments of Hulkbuster Armor or whatnot, I was thinking more of an Electric Superman situation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2017 23:52
|
|