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On top of everything else it seems like an insult to people who have had struggles with addiction and managed to come back from it without loving murdering anyone along the way for them to be represented by this guy.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:05
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I'm not defending this guy, or the thoroughly bizarre choice to book him as a motivational speaker/role model. But do you folks believe in rehabilitative justice or not?
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Feb 7, 2019 16:05
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Entropic posted:So one of the scheduled speakers at the Calgary Teachers Convention was a guy from an addiction treatment centre who was going to talk about the challenges of addiction. His “inspirational story” of how he hit rock bottom but survived glosses over the fact that he was convicted of murdering an indigenous sex worker. For some crazy reason people objected to this guy being paid to speak at the conference! He's obviously rehabilitated, let him move on.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:06
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infernal machines posted:I'm not defending this guy, or the thoroughly bizarre choice to book him as a motivational speaker/role model. But do you folks believe in rehabilitative justice or not? I’m not saying he should be executed or locked up forever, it just feels super gross for him to essentially be profiting off his “story”.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:08
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infernal machines posted:I'm not defending this guy, or the thoroughly bizarre choice to book him as a motivational speaker/role model. But do you folks believe in rehabilitative justice or not? He absolutely should be rehabilitated as much as possible. He absolutely should not be booked as a motivational speaker about dealing with addiction.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:10
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infernal machines posted:I'm not defending this guy, or the thoroughly bizarre choice to book him as a motivational speaker/role model. But do you folks believe in rehabilitative justice or not? I'm more concerned by this AARC organization that doesn't do vulnerable sector checks on its workers. That is hosed. Especially considering they have been accused of sexual assault before.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:12
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vyelkin posted:He absolutely should be rehabilitated as much as possible. Why not?
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Feb 7, 2019 16:12
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Apparently laws against profiting from crimes are provincial, and Alberta has one: http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/research-library/profiting-from-crime-laws-against/ If he's not being paid it's probably not illegal but merely a very bad look. Postess with the Mostest posted:Why not? I don't think anyone would blink at a story about addiction that involved petty crime like theft but murder is a bit much.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:20
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Dreylad posted:The federal government, in my view, was designed to be fairly weak since the nascent Dominion of Canada didn't have control over its own foreign policy, no real army, and was merely a vehicle to arbitrate trade and political conflicts between provinces. The potential for a strong government was there, I think, but it didn't realize it until the First World War. The "no real army" thing is funny, because I remember it being taught back in grades 7, 8, and 10 that having its own army (so as to more readily respond to invasions from America or Ireland) was a central motivation for confederation. But I guess both consensus history and political rhetoric deviate from the facts of the matter in their own regular ways.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:22
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rip Dewar, he seemed like an honest guyPostess with the Mostest posted:He's obviously rehabilitated, let him move on. This is great bait 
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Feb 7, 2019 16:43
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eXXon posted:I don't think anyone would blink at a story about addiction that involved petty crime like theft but murder is a bit much. Well I guess people like you are why we need speakers like him to really show the depths of depravity that can accompany serious addiction.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:09
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I guess I'm trying to get a clearer picture of the issue. Is the consensus that rehabilitation doesn't matter? Is this particular man not (in the poster's opinion) rehabilitated and fit to participate in society? Do we exclude people from aspects of society regardless of whether they've been rehabilitated and served their debt to society as seen fit by the courts, because of the nature of their crime? Where are the lines being drawn here, and with what justification?
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Feb 7, 2019 17:12
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I got hosed up on [____] and killed somebody, which was bad. Don't be like me. You can beat [_____] abuse if you want to. A: Drugs B: Alcohol
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Feb 7, 2019 17:23
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flakeloaf posted:I got hosed up on [____] and killed somebody, which was bad. Don't be like me. You can beat [_____] abuse if you want to. C: Authority
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Feb 7, 2019 17:25
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People that have killed other people probably shouldn't profit from the murder, even if they are later rehabilitated. Just my hot take
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Feb 7, 2019 17:25
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infernal machines posted:Do we exclude people from aspects of society regardless of whether they've been rehabilitated and served their debt to society as seen fit by the courts, because of the nature of their crime? Isn't that exactly what we do for sex offenders, and for good reason?
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Feb 7, 2019 17:26
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I think its mostly the teachers convention with the added context of talking on an adolescent addiction panel I don't see any problem. The headline is kinda misleading as it doesn't refer to the context at which he is "presenting". The conference itself is listening to the pleas of Indigenous and Sex workers, both of which are currently undeserved in terms of justice. I'm willing to side with them on not giving him a position to speak.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:27
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He does sound like kind of a tone deaf choice for that particular audience.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:29
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I think there's a massive difference between "wiping the slate clean" after rehabilitation in terms of, this person can now get a job and have a place to live, etc. etc. (which is good) and going all the way to holding this dude up as an example of a good person who turned their life around and is to be admired on any level. There are plenty of addicts who turned their life around and probably didn't kill anyone at any time. Why not pick one of them instead?
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Feb 7, 2019 17:29
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A Typical Goon posted:People that have killed other people probably shouldn't profit from the murder, even if they are later rehabilitated. Just my hot take Okay, in what way is this guy profiting from murder? patonthebach posted:Isn't that exactly what we do for sex offenders, and for good reason? Yeah, and it kinda puts the lie to the whole rehabilitation thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm asking if we really believe in it conceptually. If, broadly speaking, we have better outcomes and lower rates of recidivism by excluding people from certain parts of society even after they've served their time, I think that's probably the best policy. But it does mean we don't really believe we can rehabilitate them. flakeloaf posted:He does sound like kind of a tone deaf choice for that particular audience. Yeah, no kidding, this was not a good idea.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:30
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infernal machines posted:Do we exclude people from aspects of society regardless of whether they've been rehabilitated and served their debt to society as seen fit by the courts, because of the nature of their crime? Isn't that exactly what background checks do? Pedophiles can be rehabilitated but that doesn't mean they should be given positions of power over young children. Efb but it's not just for sex offenders. Casinos might hire former cheats for their own security but you wouldn't want a bank to hire someone convicted for money laundering as their compliance officer, etc. Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 17:32
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Yeah if he was going to a prison to talk to high danger offenders or whatever personally I'd be all for it. Hell that might even be something I'd be interested in listening to. A keynote speech at teachers conference about addictions? Ehh I think there are probably better options
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Feb 7, 2019 17:33
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eXXon posted:Isn't that exactly what background checks do? Pedophiles can be rehabilitated but that doesn't mean they should be given positions of power over young children. Yes, it is something that happens, I'm not arguing that it doesn't. I'm asking if the thread believes in the concept of rehabilitation or not, and in this specific case does the crime of murder mean you can no longer participate in society in arbitrary ways. eXXon posted:Efb but it's not just for sex offenders. Casinos might hire former cheats for their own security but you wouldn't want a bank to hire someone convicted for money laundering as their compliance officer, etc. Why not?
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Feb 7, 2019 17:35
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infernal machines posted:Yes, it is something that happens, I'm not arguing that it doesn't. I'm asking if the thread believes in the concept of rehabilitation or not, and in this specific case does the crime of murder mean you can no longer participate in society in arbitrary ways. No it doesn't mean that, rehabilitation is a good thing that lowers recidivism overall, providing a net benefit to society. That doesn't mean we need to treat rehabilitated murders as role models for teenagers. There are far better options if you are looking for a role model I have no problems with the guy being out in the street and seemingly trying to help people.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:37
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Believing in rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean you believe someone can be rehabilitated to 100% of the prospects of someone who never committed their crime in the first place. Like we don't let pedophiles become kindergarten teachers even if they've served their full sentence, because even if some of them are 100% rehabilitated, we assume some of them aren't, and weigh the benefits for society against the costs for society and decide that we shouldn't run the risk of one of these rehabilitated pedophiles harming children again. Now this is a bit different from that hypothetical, because it's not like the scenario in which this guy is being placed is one that will give him the opportunity to murder another sex worker. But we already accept as a society that there are limits to rehabilitation, and even the leftiest of lefties will probably agree that there should be some limits to rehabilitation. And for me, "murdered one of the most marginalized people in society" is a pretty thick red line. Do I think this guy should be allowed to get a job and live a decent life if he's really rehabilitated? Yeah, absolutely, but I don't think he should be being raised up as a motivational example for others, or be allowed to use his past horrible crime as a big profile boost and money-making opportunity (note: even if he isn't getting paid for this particular talk, this kind of exposure and experience often leads to future opportunities to make money that wouldn't have otherwise arisen), especially when the community that he murdered a member of remains just as marginalized and downtrodden as before, and aren't afforded the same kinds of opportunities and second chances that this man is afforded because of his race and gender.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:43
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infernal machines posted:Yes, it is something that happens, I'm not arguing that it doesn't. I'm asking if the thread believes in the concept of rehabilitation or not, and in this specific case does the crime of murder mean you can no longer participate in society in arbitrary ways. What do you think rehabilitation? I'm phone posting atm but I kinda want to dig into what this thread thinks rehabilitation is for. Briefly from my pov it is allowing people to re-enter society. But like all members of society that doesn't grant you the ability to do anything.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:43
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infernal machines posted:Yes, it is something that happens, I'm not arguing that it doesn't. I'm asking if the thread believes in the concept of rehabilitation or not, and in this specific case does the crime of murder mean you can no longer participate in society in arbitrary ways. If it was about rehabilitation, gladue would make no sense.
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Feb 7, 2019 17:44
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Cerepol posted:What do you think rehabilitation? I tend to agree, but I was also curious because initially the thread's reaction appeared not to be about the tone deafness of this particular choice of speaker/venue, but the fact that he was a murderer being asked to speak on the subject of addiction recovery at all. Postess with the Mostest posted:If it was about rehabilitation, gladue would make no sense. I'm not saying we actually have a system of rehabilitative rather than retributive justice, just assuming we aim for the former, do we believe it works and to what extent? infernal machines fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 17:48
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infernal machines posted:I'm not defending this guy, or the thoroughly bizarre choice to book him as a motivational speaker/role model. But do you folks believe in rehabilitative justice or not? In this case? No. Punishment is sometimes a legitimate aim of the justice system.
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Feb 7, 2019 19:24
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If JWR brings down the Trudeau government on the back of this SNC Lavalin horseshit, I may have to rethink my position that she is "useless" and "has no use".  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-snc-lavalin-fraud-corruption-1.5009578
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Feb 7, 2019 20:39
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https://twitter.com/cbcnewsbc/status/1093596097933504512 lol you can just dump a giant oil slick in the middle of Vancouver harbour in plain view and get away with it.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:05
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See, it's fine. So why's everyone so worked up about this pipeline thing?
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Feb 7, 2019 21:15
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Franks Happy Place posted:If JWR brings down the Trudeau government on the back of this SNC Lavalin horseshit, I may have to rethink my position that she is "useless" and "has no use". https://twitter.com/RobertFife/status/1093606059606978566 Lmao
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Feb 7, 2019 21:24
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I'm glad and somewhat impressed that she refused to do that but a principled refusal to do something insanely unethical (and possibly criminal) becomes a lot less impressive when you're too worried about your future career to actually say what happened. The non-denial is almost worse than just saying what occurred.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:27
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That’s not my read! She’s probably the source on the G&M story, has decided not to run again, and is keeping mum to keep the story alive longer and to prevent JT from firing her without looking like an rear end in a top hat.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:33
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JWR should cross the floor and really blow this thing up.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:40
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vyelkin posted:especially when the community that he murdered a member of remains just as marginalized and downtrodden as before, and aren't afforded the same kinds of opportunities and second chances that this man is afforded because of his race and gender. This is also a key point. This situation highlights just how "eh ~ndb~" murdering a native woman apparently is in Canadian society. Plus, people keep saying he's served his time, but it was a life sentence and he's out on probation, technically is he still not serving his debt to society? A debt that will never actually be fully repaid? Where he's kept under constant monitoring because the state does not trust him to be completely reformed?
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Feb 7, 2019 21:51
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Pinterest Mom posted:That’s not my read! She’s probably the source on the G&M story, has decided not to run again, and is keeping mum to keep the story alive longer and to prevent JT from firing her without looking like an rear end in a top hat. If that's the case then hell yeah.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:52
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NZAmoeba posted:Plus, people keep saying he's served his time, but it was a life sentence and he's out on probation, technically is he still not serving his debt to society? A debt that will never actually be fully repaid? Where he's kept under constant monitoring because the state does not trust him to be completely reformed? Well, if he's allowed out on probation presumably the courts feel he has sufficiently paid his debt/reformed such that he can again enter society. I mean, you can disagree with the court's findings, but I think that's the assumption.
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Feb 7, 2019 21:58
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Entropic posted:So one of the scheduled speakers at the Calgary Teachers Convention was a guy from an addiction treatment centre who was going to talk about the challenges of addiction. His “inspirational story” of how he hit rock bottom but survived glosses over the fact that he was convicted of murdering an indigenous sex worker. For some crazy reason people objected to this guy being paid to speak at the conference!
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