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It seems possible to say Israel is bad without framing it as “Jews are the real nazis” why not compare it to literally any other genocide other than punching up the metaphors with edgy subscribe to pewdiepie level meme stuff
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Mar 23, 2019 06:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It seems possible to say Israel is bad without framing it as “Jews are the real nazis” why not compare it to literally any other genocide other than punching up the metaphors with edgy subscribe to pewdiepie level meme stuff Please don't engage in the anti-Semitic trope of conflating all Jews with the government of Israel. Jewish people are not a hivemind all carrying out the secret plan of the Elders in Tel Aviv or whatever.
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Mar 23, 2019 07:02
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VitalSigns posted:Please don't engage in the anti-Semitic trope of conflating all Jews with the government of Israel. But conflating Jews with nazis is fine? Why not just not say any Jews are nazis? Is there no other insults possible if you don’t like a single particular Jewish person or group?
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Mar 23, 2019 07:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:But conflating Jews with nazis is fine? Why not just not say any Jews are nazis? Is there no other insults possible if you don’t like a single particular Jewish person or group? I would point out that there is just as strong pushback to comparing Israel to South Africa. It seems that negative analogies are simply not welcome in this context. Direct Nazi comparisons aside, calling out that a country founded on the basis to provide a safe haven from ghettos and pogroms is engaging in its own ghettoization of a religious outgroup is a cruel irony that needs to be called out.
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Mar 23, 2019 08:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:But conflating Jews with nazis is fine? Why not just not say any Jews are nazis? Is there no other insults possible if you don’t like a single particular Jewish person or group? "The Government of Israel has parallels with X" does not mean "Jews have parallels with X", I don't know why you think those are the same unless you buy into neo-Nazi propaganda that all Jews are part of the government of Israel and secretly carrying out its will
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Mar 23, 2019 08:16
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Munin posted:I would point out that there is just as strong pushback to comparing Israel to South Africa. It seems that negative analogies are simply not welcome in this context. As someone who objects strongly to comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany, I think comparisons to apartheid South Africa couldn't be more apt. Also, I completely agree with your second point. It's a cruel irony and a disgrace that a country where holocaust survivors still live in engages in racist war crimes, it's disgusting and shameful.
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Mar 23, 2019 08:50
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You know Israel's PR is doing badly when the best argument of its defenders is "it is not literally a Central European country ruled by a German political party from 1930s, check mate"
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Mar 23, 2019 09:03
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steinrokkan posted:You know Israel's PR is doing badly when the best argument of its defenders is "it is not literally a Central European country ruled by a German political party from 1930s, check mate" Glib yet stupid. In what way was I defending Israel?
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Mar 23, 2019 09:16
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Unimpressed posted:Glib yet stupid. In what way was I defending Israel? You wrote this to defend Israel from Nazi comparisons: Unimpressed posted:No, you were being dumb. Equating Israel with Nazi Germany is the mirror image of accusing Israel's detractors of anti-Semitism. Which is pretty funny considering the poster you were responding to wasn't comparing Israel to Nazis at the time, but you jumped in with both feet anyway.
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Mar 23, 2019 09:22
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Lemniscate Blue posted:You wrote this to defend Israel from Nazi comparisons: That's just dumb. It's like saying that being against the death penalty for murderers is a defence of murderers.
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Mar 23, 2019 09:26
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Unimpressed posted:As someone who objects strongly to comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany, I think comparisons to apartheid South Africa couldn't be more apt. The problem is of course that each situation is unique. Israel is certainly a lot closer to apartheid South Africa than to Nazi Germany, yet comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto is a better fit than to anything I know in SA history, even if there are still massive differences between them. It's compounded by low historical knowledge of the average person. Most (western) people know Nazi Germany and South Africa, but things like Belgian Kongo or what exactly the Japanese were up to in Asia, or even the fact that Great Britain ran concentration camps before the Nazis is far less well known. So people make the comparisons to what they know, which makes everything even more messy, and is obviously especially difficult when you compare Israel to Nazi Germany.
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Mar 23, 2019 09:38
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Unimpressed posted:Glib yet stupid. In what way was I defending Israel? Maybe not defenders per se, but it still is funny that the response to "Israel is a Nazi state" basically boils down to "Israel hasn't erected death camps yet"
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Mar 23, 2019 09:41
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steinrokkan posted:Maybe not defenders per se, but it still is funny that the response to "Israel is a Nazi state" basically boils down to "Israel hasn't erected death camps yet" Maybe that's because the people who make the comparison specifically make it because of the death camps. Maybe it's because death camps are a pretty big loving deal. Maybe it's because some of the people who make the point know people who survived the death camps.
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Mar 23, 2019 10:35
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Let me say this then, I believe Israel’s political leaders would institute death camps if they thought they could get away with it. I base this on their past actions and rhetoric.
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Mar 23, 2019 11:20
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Orange Devil posted:Let me say this then, I believe Israel’s political leaders would institute death camps if they thought they could get away with it. I base this on their past actions and rhetoric. The current ones? For sure. They'd kill lots of leftist Jews too if they could.
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Mar 23, 2019 11:35
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lol at you all pussyfooting around comparing the Israeli government to the Nazis when the Israeli government are making perfume ads for fascism. https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1107747463631388673
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Mar 23, 2019 11:43
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Unimpressed posted:The current ones? For sure. They'd kill lots of leftist Jews too if they could. You know who else killed a lot of leftist countrymen as soon as they got a chance?
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Mar 23, 2019 13:10
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Unimpressed posted:Maybe that's because the people who make the comparison specifically make it because of the death camps. Maybe it's because death camps are a pretty big loving deal. Maybe it's because some of the people who make the point know people who survived the death camps. And do you think there is a material difference between the Hitler in 1933 and the Hitler of 1945 other than that one had time and opportunity? Fascism is a process - 'don't compare people to Nazis because while they are Nazis, they haven't started the death camps yet' is meaningless hair-splitting because death camps are the end-goal of fascism, and it's kind of useful to identify trends before they result in apocalyptic industrialised mass murder.
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Mar 23, 2019 13:29
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I think is worth noticing that the most fascist politicians in the right today are all big supporters of the current Israel government, and Bibi Trump, obviously, but even Bolsonaro, even though brazilians never cared much about Israel I wont say the USA is fascist, or Brazil, or Israel. But all three of them are currently being governed by fascist populist leaders. And is no accident that they love each other
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Mar 23, 2019 13:47
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VitalSigns posted:"The Government of Israel has parallels with X" does not mean "Jews have parallels with X", I don't know why you think those are the same unless you buy into neo-Nazi propaganda that all Jews are part of the government of Israel and secretly carrying out its will No matter how legitimately awful an individual black person is you can not go to chicken and watermelon jokes without that speaking to your opinion of blacks people.
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Mar 23, 2019 13:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:No matter how legitimately awful an individual black person is you can not go to chicken and watermelon jokes without that speaking to your opinion of blacks people. Gonzo McFee posted:lol at you all pussyfooting around comparing the Israeli government to the Nazis when the Israeli government are making perfume ads for fascism.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:04
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Unimpressed posted:See this is the dumb poo poo I'm talking about. Israel has many, leading, politicians who hold views that are logically similar or even identical to Hitler and the Nazis. No dispute. But if you can't see the difference between that and an entire country implementing the ideology and murdering millions of people under it,then you're just dumb and lazy. There's no nuance in pretending the Nazis were magical all time villains of the world, and when people flip out in hysterics like this it diminishes the suffering people had to actually deal with irl. I'm sorry you can't get it through your head that a fascist nazi is a fascist nazi regardless of geographic location
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Mar 23, 2019 14:04
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avshalemon posted:it's not worth your energy to make this argument here. these people cannot and will not understand it. they're not interested in understanding it. 99% of the posters itt have no connection to either israel or the holocaust; they're spoilt american goy boys who see the whole world like a movie and although they make a big noise about their disapproval of the israeli genocide state, and may even say they disapprove of the nazis if you really push them, they are about as emotionally invested in either as they are in the mechanics of sandwich making. this is a thread for leftist waspy tech bros to whisper to each other about how much they hate the jews, secretly, and not all jews, just the bad ones, which are most of them, if not all. it is not a thread for reason or understanding. You are literally a white supremacist and should be permabanned.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:06
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Unimpressed posted:I don't think Israel would go full Nazi but that's irrelevant. What they're doing now should be stopped and glib student politics childish Nazi comparisons do nothing but lubricate dicks in the group wank of moral superiority and give right wing Israelis and Americans the moral high ground to ignore legitimate criticism. Anyway I suspect avshalom is right. I'll leave you all to fondle yourselves in faux righteous moral indignation. Israel is systematically murdering women, children, and civilians, by race, and exterminating extended families if one of their members is a "criminal" or "terrorist". They literally gas the palestinians to death with white phosphorous. The only thing they don't do is make lampshades.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:This has to be a joke, right? Avs is, literally, a fascist white supremacist.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:09
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VitalSigns posted:It's pretty clearly the intended comparison, since ya know, Israel hasn't built a set of concentration camps exactly like 1944 Germany's or conquered France or Well, they do have concentration camps, and they're now trying to take over territory in Syria with the overt blessing of another fascist country. So I don't really get how much farther they have to go.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:10
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Unimpressed posted:Maybe that's because the people who make the comparison specifically make it because of the death camps. Maybe it's because death camps are a pretty big loving deal. Maybe it's because some of the people who make the point know people who survived the death camps. Ok but all of Palestine is a death camp. It's literally walled off, food and water is controlled by Israel, and they routinely bulldoze it and throw gas in it and fire bullets into it etc. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 23, 2019 14:13
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Again, showing an individual is extra double special bad doesn't make it okay. You can't wait till you find an extra double bad legitimately bad, no really he ate a baby bad guy then pull the klan robes out of your closet but it's okay because he's bad. "I say jews are the real nazis, but don't worry, I only save that for the bad jews" is super edgy but internet irony is dead and we all figured out people are saying what they really mean when they are "joking".
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Mar 23, 2019 14:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Again, showing an individual is extra double special bad doesn't make it okay. You can't wait till you find an extra double bad legitimately bad, no really he ate a baby bad guy then pull the klan robes out of your closet but it's okay because he's bad. don't you have a synagogue to throw a brick at or something, we don't need a whole page of 'by saying 'the Israeli government' you REALLY MEAN 'all Jews' because that's how I use terms like that obvs'
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Mar 23, 2019 14:25
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Again, showing an individual is extra double special bad doesn't make it okay. You can't wait till you find an extra double bad legitimately bad, no really he ate a baby bad guy then pull the klan robes out of your closet but it's okay because he's bad. She's Israel's Minister of Justice you loving dumb dweeb.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:27
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:No matter how legitimately awful an individual black person is you can not go to chicken and watermelon jokes without that speaking to your opinion of blacks people. Nobody is saying that Bibi is stealing babies to use in ritual blood sacrifices or whatever you're trying to imply here. Would anyone have any reason to call Joseph Kony a slaving warlord outside of demented racism? If an ethnostate with codified segregation had a black president, would it be racist to suggest it might be practicing some sort of apartheid?
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Mar 23, 2019 14:47
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Please do not judge the government for its politics, it's what a racist would do.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:50
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sexpig by night posted:don't you have a synagogue to throw a brick at or something, we don't need a whole page of 'by saying 'the Israeli government' you REALLY MEAN 'all Jews' because that's how I use terms like that obvs' I mean, do you send little cards to every other jew every time you say some weird rear end nazi thing to make sure you don't mean them? Or do you just throw it out into the wind that you only mean bad jews and just put the responsibility on them to figure out who you do or do not mean? Why not use criticisms of israel that aren't bread and butter of white supremacists so you don't have to constantly refight "no I only meant the bad jews" unless it's the fact that you know it's a little extra nasty to tint words a little bit in a way you can back out of if called on? Like what do you get out of specifically hinting at lebensraum instead of any other thing except "hehe, I'm a naughty boy, but just a little joke you guys if anyone gets mad". Like the intention of bringing that stuff up at all is so clearly to try to skirt a line in an internet ironic racist way.
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Mar 23, 2019 14:54
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White nationalists love Israel now, keep up dude.
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Mar 23, 2019 15:09
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beta cuck goy boys?
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Mar 23, 2019 15:14
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Bibi: Hitler wasn't really that bad, he didn't plan the holocaust. Shaked: Fascism is literally democracy. I love fascism and would wear it like a perfume. You, a plebeian idiot: These guys kind of seems like Nazis. Owlofcreamcheese, smart, not a Nazi: Oh, so you're saying all Jews are Nazis? How very Nazi-ish of you.
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Mar 23, 2019 15:15
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Israel: Not Nazis But #1 With Nazis
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Mar 23, 2019 15:15
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Gonzo McFee posted:Owlofcreamcheese, smart, not a Nazi: Oh, so you're saying all Jews are Nazis? How very Nazi-ish of you. Using nazi imagery as your default frame because you feel like it gives your argument a little extra kick and spice is not okay. Like I get that some events are direct parallels enough it's a natural analogy to draw, but no one neutrally thinks "space to grow" any time any country does anything, and people go for that stuff literally solely to get edgelord points.
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Mar 23, 2019 15:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Using nazi imagery as your default frame because you feel like it gives your argument a little extra kick and spice is not okay. Like I get that some events are direct parallels enough it's a natural analogy to draw, but no one neutrally thinks "space to grow" any time any country does anything, and people go for that stuff literally solely to get edgelord points. I'm not the one using Nazi imagery. That would be the Israeli government.
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Mar 23, 2019 15:26
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Using nazi imagery as your default frame because you feel like it gives your argument a little extra kick and spice is not okay. Like I get that some events are direct parallels enough it's a natural analogy to draw, but no one neutrally thinks "space to grow" any time any country does anything, and people go for that stuff literally solely to get edgelord points.
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Mar 23, 2019 17:36
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