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Toxxupation posted:Like...the fact that Wonder Woman ends up an also-ran introduction in BvS infuriates me, she's DC's most important female superhero, not some name on a call sheet who doesn't even get title credit in her first movie. She also NEEDED this (although it would have helped if the movie was good), the difference in ticket sales after her pretty cool introduction is going to be large.
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May 13, 2016 17:08
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MacheteZombie posted:It was actually pretty good. If you're complaining about lazy, fanfic writing, then you have no legs to stand on.
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May 13, 2016 17:09
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ashpanash posted:If you're complaining about lazy, fanfic writing, then you have no legs to stand on. Because I enjoyed a movie you didn't and I'm not trying "fix" movies I don't like with bad fanfiction ideas? okay.
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May 13, 2016 17:10
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I find it hard to believe that you legitimately have no complaints about that scene or about the motivations of the characters. But whatever, what I find hard to believe isn't really relevant.
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May 13, 2016 17:14
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ashpanash posted:I find it hard to believe that you legitimately have no complaints about that scene or about the motivations of the characters. It's cheesy, but I did enjoy it. Affleck sells it really well, you can see the wheels turning in his head as he tries to work out what the gently caress is going. I found the character motivations of Batman and Lex to be well explained and in line with their actions. I'm not trolling, sorry if that hurts your brain.
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May 13, 2016 17:16
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theflyingorc posted:Counterpoint: The general public doesn't care about Wonder Woman as a character at all, she's basically pure iconography, I'd bet less than 10% of Americans could tell you her real name. Let's rewind time to 2008, and list the ten most famous superhero characters at that time, that have a strong enough name to sell movie tickets due to the inherent appeal. Wonder Woman would easily be in the top five, arguably in the top three (depending on how Spider-Man and Wolverine place). Iron Man, I would argue, would not make that list.
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May 13, 2016 17:19
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Which of these new age adaptations of superhero films will finally embrace sidekicks? Bucky gets aged up. Robin is killed off. Speedy has been thrown out of Arrow. Twice possibly. Wally's not a thing on The Flash. Why are comics so ashamed of their own history?ImpAtom posted:In terms of big threats you still haven't seen Braniac, Eclipse, Trigon, Amazo, they could dig up dumbasses like ~IMPERIEX-PRIME~ and of course there's the Injustice League I have to ask. Who the hell is Eclipse? ArmyOfMidgets posted:I mean, Dark Knight was excellent and all but most of the MCU is fairly 'better' than Begins and Rises. Yeah, there's a meme floating around comparing the Nolan trilogy to Cap's trilogy. Captain America wins that one pretty clearly from my point of view. Toxxupation posted:Let's rewind time to 2008, and list the ten most famous superhero characters at that time, that have a strong enough name to sell movie tickets due to the inherent appeal. Wonder Woman would easily be in the top five, arguably in the top three (depending on how Spider-Man and Wolverine place). Iron Man, I would argue, would not make that list. Top 3 is a hell of a stretch. There's no way Wonder Woman edges out Spider-Man and Wolverine in 2008. Maybe 1970. SonicRulez fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 17:22
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:I mean, Dark Knight was excellent and all but most of the MCU is fairly 'better' than Begins and Rises. I wouldn't think all (possibly even most) of the MCU is better than Begins, and I don't find Begins that great.
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May 13, 2016 17:23
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SonicRulez posted:Which of these new age adaptations of superhero films will finally embrace sidekicks? Bucky gets aged up. Robin is killed off. Speedy has been thrown out of Arrow. Twice possibly. Wally's not a thing on The Flash. Why are comics so ashamed of their own history? Because having an underequipped teenage boy fighting murderous supervillains is a relic of a bygone era that looks really hosed up on film unless you age them up or make it something cartoony or lighthearted Edit: And even in that era it was "Robin is trapped in a giant pie" and not "Turns out he was molested by Dr. Light." SonicRulez posted:I have to ask. Who the hell is Eclipse? An autocorrect of Eclipso.
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May 13, 2016 17:30
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SonicRulez posted:
Eh, Fair. Either way my point is she's easily the only female character on the list, would place in a position where she would follow solely characters who had already gotten or were about to get solo movies (and would place above characters who had already gotten solo movies, like the Hulk). She's really, really recognizable. You might argue that's solely iconography but that's more the point. She works perfectly for a stand-alone movie because everyone knows who she is, but nobody knows who she is.
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May 13, 2016 17:32
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Toxxupation posted:Eh, Fair. Either way my point is she's easily the only female character on the list, would place in a position where she would follow solely characters who had already gotten or were about to get solo movies (and would place above characters who had already gotten solo movies, like the Hulk). She's really, really recognizable. You might argue that's solely iconography but that's more the point. She works perfectly for a stand-alone movie because everyone knows who she is, but nobody knows who she is. The Hulk would actually be very high up the list. He has a fairly iconic television series and his character (and especially his catchphrase "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry") are fairly ingrained in the public consciousness. People can probably tell you more about the Hulk than they can about Wonder Woman. The issue with Wonder Woman is figuring out what to do with her which something even the comics struggle with. A big part of it is that then expectations for Wonder Woman are high because she's an icon but she is an icon for her gender than her character. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it makes it hard to find a niche because everyone has a different idea of what that means. (And going back to their history means you veer between consensual bondage and Xena: Warrior Princess.)
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May 13, 2016 17:38
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Toxxupation posted:Eh, Fair. Either way my point is she's easily the only female character on the list, would place in a position where she would follow solely characters who had already gotten or were about to get solo movies (and would place above characters who had already gotten solo movies, like the Hulk). She's really, really recognizable. You might argue that's solely iconography but that's more the point. She works perfectly for a stand-alone movie because everyone knows who she is, but nobody knows who she is. I'll admit that it's difficult for me to flash my brain back to 2008, but I can't say that I still really see much Wonder Woman merch. She's not in any of the kids cartoons anymore to my knowledge. She doesn't have a TV show. I guess what I'm thinking is sure, everyone here knows WW. Everyone that's at least old enough to have watched the DCAU knows Wonder Woman. Do the masses know her? That would've been debatable until very recently. You are right in that she's the go-to female superhero. Where does Catwoman rank? She had a movie around that time did she not? ImpAtom posted:Because having an underequipped teenage boy fighting murderous supervillains is a relic of a bygone era that looks really hosed up on film unless you age them up or make it something cartoony or lighthearted But like even aged up Bucky and Roy get kicked off the show before long. And they didn't shy away from kid Robin in BvS, they just killed him so the writers wouldn't have to deal with him. Nolan threw his hands up at Robin, but threw a wink in at the end of Rises. Robin's been around like...I dunno, a few months shy of Batman's own debut? He's every bit as iconic as the man himself. It bothers me that no film maker wants to touch him in the past decade plus. It might just be my personal soapbox since I love Nightwing. It just comes off like laziness to me. "Oh, I can't think of a way to make Robin grimdark, so we'll just not. Or we'll kill him. Or he'll be a 30 year old cop." You could do it and nobody would even bat an eye. It's comics. I mean you say it's a relic of a bygone era, but there isn't a soul alive that enters a Batman movie and doesn't already buy Robin on some level. There can't be very many people who are even alive that could know of a Batman without Robin. So if audiences are already down for it on some level, why not lean into it? And a Wikipedia search reveals that I don't know Eclipso either, so should I turn in my DC fan card to your or....
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May 13, 2016 17:39
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Didn't all those sidekicks end up growing up in the comics too? Like at this point I think the only Robin regularly portrayed as an actual kid is...Damien. I don't think there's been an actual teenage Bucky since World War 2.
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May 13, 2016 17:45
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SonicRulez posted:There can't be very many people who are even alive that could know of a Batman without Robin. So if audiences are already down for it on some level, why not lean into it? There are tons of people who know Robin. The key is that Robin is hard to do well when you're aiming for even slightly a realistic movie. Like look at Civil War. Tony Stark grabbing Spider-Man is a fun moment but it trends on the side of hosed up the entire time. Everyone treats Tony as kind of weird for bringing a kid along and Tony panics and sends him home at the first sign of trouble. Spider-Man acting as a hero on his own vs Spider-Man acting as a hero at the behest of an adult presents very different images and Civil War had to work to get around that with a character who is objectively a superpowered badass only fighting guys who have no real interest in hurting him. Now imagine Robin in the Nolanverse where he is a 14-16 year old boy with no superpowers being given a suit of armor and send to fight guys who have a moderate success rate at beating the poo poo out of ninja-trained competent Bruce Wayne. There is no time or place that wouldn't result in everyone both in-film and out-of-film calling Wayne a complete monster. Even B:TAS veers towards criticism of Bruce Wayne's wards and Tim Drake ends up ruined by the Joker in the film and is another of Batman's main failures.
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May 13, 2016 17:46
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Toxxupation posted:Let's rewind time to 2008, and list the ten most famous superhero characters at that time, that have a strong enough name to sell movie tickets due to the inherent appeal. Wonder Woman would easily be in the top five, arguably in the top three (depending on how Spider-Man and Wolverine place). Iron Man, I would argue, would not make that list. In no way would she have been top 3. I agree that Iron Man wouldn't have been there, but: Superman Batman Spider-Man (l literally saw a VH1 countdown show that had him at the #1 spot in like 2006. Wish I could remember the rest) Wolverine Hulk Would all easily beat her, and in 2008 the Fantastic Four were pretty strong in people's memories. And again, I can barely tell you anything about Wonder Woman THE CHARACTER, even though I've read dozens of her comics. Her position in the public consciousness is basically "the one that is a girl." Showing her going toe-to-toe with Doomsday is about a good a signal to the public "PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PERSON" as you're going to get.
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May 13, 2016 17:48
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ImpAtom posted:There are tons of people who know Robin. The key is that Robin is hard to do well when you're aiming for even slightly a realistic movie. Oh, you've got to do it in the comics as well now too- look at what they did to Bucky's backstory when they brought him back as the Winter Soldier to make him fighting with Captain America in World War II even remotely palatable for modern audiences.
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May 13, 2016 18:03
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ImpAtom posted:There are tons of people who know Robin. The key is that Robin is hard to do well when you're aiming for even slightly a realistic movie. The danger of the universe is defined by the writer. If they engineer a universe where Ninja Rich Boy is only ever in mild danger, they could do the same for Flippy Teenager. Dick generally ends up every bit as ninja'd as Bruce by the time Bruce lets him out of the cave. They could go with an origin where he's one of the I'M NOT WEARING HOCKEY PADS and Bats decides to give him proper training. I think I brought up the age thing more than I meant to. I don't mind if they want to make Robin 21 or whatever age is appropriate to jump off of buildings. I just want him to exist in any capacity whatsoever. I never got the impression in Civil War that Tony grabbing Spidey was meant to be seen as hosed up or super weird. He brought him in to fight Captain fuckin America. And Spidey was actually whipping the rear end of literally everyone on Team Cap for a while. The kid took a hard hit and at that point Tony was like "Job well done, head home." He sent all of Team Tony home at that point though. And all of Team Cap to jail. I'm okay if Alfred calls Batman on it, but "it's weird" isn't an excuse to not do something in a comic book movie. Unless it's like incredibly off putting. Robin isn't that far. Perhaps my axe to grind is that "realistic" and "comicbook movie" is a forced marriage that should be annulled. theflyingorc posted:In no way would she have been top 3. I agree that Iron Man wouldn't have been there, but: Superman, Batman, Spidey, The X-Men in general, Hulk, The Fantastic Four.....Blade? Blade. Ghost Rider. There have been a poo poo load of comic book movies.
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May 13, 2016 18:05
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SonicRulez posted:The danger of the universe is defined by the writer. If they engineer a universe where Ninja Rich Boy is only ever in mild danger, they could do the same for Flippy Teenager. They didn't do that though. Ninja Rich Boy gets shot, stabbed, the living poo poo beaten out of him, his life ruined, his home destroyed and is crippled at least once. SonicRulez posted:Unless it's like incredibly off putting. Robin isn't that far. I would say he is unless you use a very cartoonish atmosphere. There is a reason so many Batman stories involving Robin ends with a bad ending for Robin and a black mark for Batman. A teenage boy with no superpowers sent to fight murderers is actually pretty hosed up. Robin is a legacy character so he isn't going away but outside of Brave and the Bold-style action it is really weird when Batman asks a 14 year old boy to dodge bullets. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:11 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 18:07
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SonicRulez posted:I never got the impression in Civil War that Tony grabbing Spidey was meant to be seen as hosed up or super weird. He brought him in to fight Captain fuckin America. And Spidey was actually whipping the rear end of literally everyone on Team Cap for a while. The kid took a hard hit and at that point Tony was like "Job well done, head home." He sent all of Team Tony home at that point though. And all of Team Cap to jail. It's certainly not the intent, but the depiction does come off weird. He manipulates an underage kid with spider powers to fight for him in a cause the kid knows nothing about. e: Or maybe it is intended, because Tony's manipulation isn't subtle.
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May 13, 2016 18:08
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MacheteZombie posted:It's certainly not the intent, but the depiction does come off weird. He manipulates an underage kid with spider powers to fight for him in a cause the kid knows nothing about. It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones.
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May 13, 2016 18:14
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theflyingorc posted:It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones. I presume because Jessica Jones would have started laughing and then threw his rear end out the door.
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May 13, 2016 18:15
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ImpAtom posted:I presume because Jessica Jones would have started laughing and then threw his rear end out the door. TO THE RAFT WITH HER
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May 13, 2016 18:15
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theflyingorc posted:It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones.
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May 13, 2016 18:17
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redbackground posted:There is no way she would have given his recruitment pitch any kind of attention. Daredevil probably would have been down. Dude loves punching stuff.
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May 13, 2016 18:18
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Daredevil doesn't strike me as pro-reg. where did he stand in the comics?
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May 13, 2016 18:23
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MacheteZombie posted:Daredevil probably would have been down. Dude loves punching stuff. Daredevil probably would have been on Cap's side. Hell, he probably would have offered to represent Bucky in court.
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May 13, 2016 18:24
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theflyingorc posted:It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones. MCU Spider-Man is stronger than MCU Jessica Jones.
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May 13, 2016 18:25
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I find the assessment that Iron Man did this ultra weird manipulation of Spider-Man odd. He didn't lie to him or trick him. He said "Hey, Cap and his friends are breaking the law and I need help stopping them before other people hurt them or before they hurt someone on accident." He asked Spider-Man to help him fight literal crime. That's not really a Batman Gambit. I could understand the line of thinking if Spidey was on Team Cap since that would've required a longer story on Steve's part, but he was on Team Iron Man. That's not a really long conversation. Just what they had in the bedroom and then the flight to the airport. Captain America was breaking the law. I wouldn't call that a cause that the kid knows nothing about. Sure from our point of view it's much more complex than that, but in-universe it really isn't. I say that as someone who leaned more towards Cap by the end than Iron Man, but Tony wasn't wrong at that point in the film. Nor did he use his craft and wit to manipulate a child into doing something shady. "You think you're right when you're not and that makes you dangerous" is about as much motivation as I would expect a superhero to need. Even if that fight is against another hero. ImpAtom posted:I would say he is unless you use a very cartoonish atmosphere. There is a reason so many Batman stories involving Robin ends with a bad ending for Robin and a black mark for Batman. A teenage boy with no superpowers sent to fight murderers is actually pretty hosed up. Robin is a legacy character so he isn't going away but outside of Brave and the Bold-style action it is really weird when Batman asks a 14 year old boy to dodge bullets. That reason is because the easiest and laziest way to inject drama and DARK AND MATURE into an alternate universe (or main canon sometimes) Batman story is to kill off the one in bright colors. That reason is not because Robin is any more outlandish or cartoony than Batman. Not inherently at least. Robin's been in his fair share of serious storylines. He isn't just the Teen Titans cartoon incarnate. You know that. Like I said, he doesn't have to be a teenage boy. He could be 22 considering they made Batfleck like 45 or some poo poo. That's a good age gap and it removes "Well it's a little silly" if you happen to think that way. You can join the army at 18, gently caress it, make him that. theflyingorc posted:It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones. You cannot possibly believe that "I was hypnotized for years to do horrible things" wouldn't immediately sympathize with "I was hypnotized for years to do horrible Russian things" and tell Tony to gently caress off. Daredevil would've been his best choice. Though even that would be shaky I think for Matt to get down with. He'd probably prefer to just stay out of it.
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May 13, 2016 18:28
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Ignite Memories posted:Daredevil doesn't strike me as pro-reg. where did he stand in the comics? Daredevil was in Europe at the time CW happened. Danny Rand/Iron Fist wore the DD suit at the time masquerading as him in the comics. But he probably wouldn't have been pro-reg. Hell, almost all of the street level heroes lined up with Cap.
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May 13, 2016 18:30
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theflyingorc posted:It's also weird as hell that Tony recruited him instead of, y'know, Jessica Jones. My GF and I had a debate about this on the way home from Civil War. My opinion was that the entire Netflix series she is trying to get video evidence of Purple Man, and fails the entire time. So that would mean there's not really any footage of what happened in NY, and no footage of Jessica Jones either. The only media that covered it was Patsy Walker, and I imagine that was easily ignored/missed. Plus Killgrave was so careful about him not leaving a video trail, including taking away the police recordings, that I'm not sure if the rest of the MCU knows about her. I've not finished Season 2 of Daredevil, so I can't speak for that.
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May 13, 2016 18:34
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Phylodox posted:Daredevil probably would have been on Cap's side. Hell, he probably would have offered to represent Bucky in court. If Spiderman had been told the whole story from Tony I think he'd be conflicted about joining Cap's side as well. it's all about how Tony frames his recruitment speech.
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May 13, 2016 18:35
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ImpAtom posted:The Hulk would actually be very high up the list. He has a fairly iconic television series and his character (and especially his catchphrase "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry") are fairly ingrained in the public consciousness. People can probably tell you more about the Hulk than they can about Wonder Woman. If anything I think you're underselling the difficulty of translating Wonder Woman to film. Consensual bondage and Xena are/were both pretty popular, but she's got to be a Serious Icon at all times so pronounced Olympian schlock or eroticism are out even if they're inherent to the character and fairly deep wells to draw from. So you fall back on her as an icon of her gender- but what do you do with that? Sure she's a feminist, but unless you're restricting her to the very broadest of platitudes you're going to have a hard time exploring that topic without pissing people off having the Icon of Womanhood endorse the Wrong Sort of feminism. And while not having a defined personality in the public's mind can be an advantage in some cases (since you get to pick one helpful to your story), it's isn't one here because it cannot in any way contradict or undermine her status as an Icon. You can overcome this with a strong enough artistic vision, but she's a risky character to use in a way that most superheroes are not. I hope her movie turns out well, but I think she's someone much easier to reference than directly use- i.e. I think something like Joe Keatinge/ LGD fucked around with this message at 18:46 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 18:36
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MacheteZombie posted:If Spiderman had been told the whole story from Tony I think he'd be conflicted about joining Cap's side as well. it's all about how Tony frames his recruitment speech. The only part of the story that would endear someone to Cap's side is the knowledge that Bucky is actually 100% innocent and he's being framed. Not only that, but there's a shoot to kill order on him, so he doesn't even have much of a chance to prove his innocence or that he's being controlled. The problem is that Tony himself doesn't know any of that. And he only doesn't know about that because Steve outright refused to tell him, because he didn't think he would believe him. You make it sound as if Tony had that knowledge and purposefully left it out in order to recruit Spider-Man, but that's not what happened. From his standpoint, Bucky killed the poo poo out of a lot of people and Cap's defending him solely because they used to be friends.
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May 13, 2016 18:41
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MacheteZombie posted:If Spiderman had been told the whole story from Tony I think he'd be conflicted about joining Cap's side as well. it's all about how Tony frames his recruitment speech. I don't think Tony purposefully manipulated him, the whole "He's wrong but he thinks he's doing the right thing." is how Tony views the conflict.
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May 13, 2016 18:41
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IUG posted:My GF and I had a debate about this on the way home from Civil War. My opinion was that the entire Netflix series she is trying to get video evidence of Purple Man, and fails the entire time. So that would mean there's not really any footage of what happened in NY, and no footage of Jessica Jones either. The only media that covered it was Patsy Walker, and I imagine that was easily ignored/missed. Plus Killgrave was so careful about him not leaving a video trail, including taking away the police recordings, that I'm not sure if the rest of the MCU knows about her. I think the Netflix series are probably not quite in current time with the movies. Daredevil S1 seems to take place relatively soon after Avengers 1, and Jessica Jones not too long after. Remember JJ has that stalker woman who was pissed about her husband dying due to the alien invasion or some poo poo. You could maybe hand wave the time between DD S1 and S2 and say they've caught up with it now but there's really no mention of recent MCU events in DD S2, though the biker gang from DD S2 first appeared in a first season episode of Agents of SHIELD.
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May 13, 2016 18:41
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SonicRulez posted:The only part of the story that would endear someone to Cap's side is the knowledge that Bucky is actually 100% innocent and he's being framed. Not only that, but there's a shoot to kill order on him, so he doesn't even have much of a chance to prove his innocence or that he's being controlled. The problem is that Tony himself doesn't know any of that. And he only doesn't know about that because Steve outright refused to tell him, because he didn't think he would believe him. You make it sound as if Tony had that knowledge and purposefully left it out in order to recruit Spider-Man, but that's not what happened. From his standpoint, Bucky killed the poo poo out of a lot of people and Cap's defending him solely because they used to be friends. SirDan3k posted:I don't think Tony purposefully manipulated him, the whole "He's wrong but he thinks he's doing the right thing." is how Tony views the conflict. There's that whole bit that by refusing the Accords they will get locked up. I really don't think Spidey would be cool having Cap locked away. "He's wrong but thinks he's doing the right thing" is purposefully vague and manipulative. There's no way to make an informed decision with that information. "If Tony thinks he's wrong then I should take his word for it!" is basically what Spidey does, because he's young and naive. The issue is far more complex then Tony implies with his statement.
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May 13, 2016 18:46
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ImpAtom posted:The Hulk would actually be very high up the list. He has a fairly iconic television series and his character (and especially his catchphrase "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry") are fairly ingrained in the public consciousness. Well, so did Wonder Woman. And again, I'm talking pure, symbolic, iconographic fame, not comprehension. Like, the immediate branding appeal of a character that puts butts in seats you can't really beat Wonder Woman outside of Batman, Superman, and I would still say arguably Spider-Man and Wolverine. And the former is only because Spidey Is Marvel and had a bunch of movies out at the time, and the latter solely because until RDJ came around nobody "was" a superhero to the level that Hugh Jackman was Wolverine. That outpaces the Hulk, because that's DC's whole bit, they build their characters around concepts with their attendant legacies. theflyingorc posted:I can barely tell you anything about Wonder Woman THE CHARACTER, even though I've read dozens of her comics. Her position in the public consciousness is basically "the one that is a girl." I'm not saying people are familiar with or understand her stories in specific or even her origins, unlike say how everyone knows Peter Parker got bit by a spider and watched Uncle Ben die, or that Batman saw his parents get killed in front of him, or how Superman's the last surviving member of the Kryptonians. But they know her character inherently, as in her image is etched into the public consciousness, and that's more than enough to make a movie appealing. That's why I said she's a character that "everyone knows who she is but not who she is", she's a female superhero who Fights Bad Guys. And that's more than enough to get a movie greenlit, because people will recognize her. She doesn't need a way to sell herself to the audience, she doesn't need to be put "over". She's not flawed in that way as a character that she needs to be proven to be a badass before audiences show up; if people don't go see a Wonder Woman movie then you're basically arguing that's something wrong with female superheroes and their cinematic appeal. It'd be like if a Superman or arguably Batman movie did poorly, the argument wouldn't be "Oh they need to be introduced to an audience" it'd be "I guess superheroes have no box office draw". NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 18:50 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 18:48
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I'm trying to picture Jessica mixing it up during the airport battle and I can't see a version where she doesn't look horrifically embarrassed to be there the entire time.
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May 13, 2016 18:49
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MacheteZombie posted:There's that whole bit that by refusing the Accords they will get locked up. I really don't think Spidey would be cool having Cap locked away. They weren't getting locked up for refusing to sign, they were getting locked up for assaulting a bunch of police officers, destroying several cars and part of a tunnel.
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May 13, 2016 18:49
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Not all of the people who got locked up were involved with that scene.
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May 13, 2016 18:50
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