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Smirking_Serpent posted:TLOU spoilers This has always been my stance. The ending straight-up does not work if you decide Joel is a cool guy. Furthermore, Joel is loving creepy as poo poo no matter what: the entire point of the ending is that he's a terrible person in more ways than one, killing defenseless and wounded people and straight-up projecting his old daughter onto his new one and ignoring her direct wishes.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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Smirking_Serpent posted:TLOU spoilers The grey area has to do with individual assumptions, even if they are false assumptions.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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Now that I think about it, TLOU is actually a cool comparison to NieR Gestalt
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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Arist posted:This has always been my stance. The ending straight-up does not work if you decide Joel is a cool guy. Furthermore, Joel is loving creepy as poo poo no matter what: the entire point of the ending is that he's a terrible person in more ways than one, killing defenseless and wounded people and straight-up projecting his old daughter onto his new one. 
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Nov 19, 2018 23:11
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That's the text of the loving story dude. It's not some hot take.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:12
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Quantum of Phallus posted:The last of us ending chat is the Bloodborne of this thread It screams and throws its placenta at us?
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Nov 19, 2018 23:13
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Arist posted:That's the text of the loving story dude. It's not some hot take. It's a hot steamy take.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:14
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Joel is OoK and Ellie is uh.... *consults the PS4 thread tome* Knack
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Nov 19, 2018 23:14
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Quantum of Phallus posted:The last of us ending chat is the Bloodborne of this thread It's insanely good yeah, the struggle of the one sane person against the deranged hordes
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Nov 19, 2018 23:14
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There are people who legitimately think that Joel is a good human being and not a monster. Sometimes I think people forget that Joel was a hunter before he found EllieThen again, there are also people who think that Big Boss still hasn't slid into doing a bunch of evil poo poo. I finally finished the main part of RDR2 and as for that, the missions where there was no combat stands heads and shoulders above the rest for me. The shooting is functional but really bores me. RDR2's strong point is definitely it's story even though the game really starts to suffer from Rockstaritis during the last chapter. Everyone pretty much knows where its headed yet you keep listening to idiots and assholes for about 5 missions too long.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:16
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:It's a hot steamy take. All I'm hearing is that you have absolutely no idea how to interpret anything in fiction. You sound like you think the ending of Inception is about tops.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:17
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too many bloater arguments itt
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Nov 19, 2018 23:17
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Important: what did Joel think of the Yakuza games
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Nov 19, 2018 23:28
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Arist posted:All I'm hearing is that you have absolutely no idea how to interpret anything in fiction. You sound like you think the ending of Inception is about tops. You sound like you’re real fun at parties.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:29
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Joel made a living dealing in counterfeit STAMINAN LIGHTS but he wasn't happy about it
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Nov 19, 2018 23:29
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blackguy32 posted:There are people who legitimately think that Joel is a good human being and not a monster. hes a person making a selfish decision after experiencing personal growth. he was a monster before you ever take control of him. also i think the idea of the ending only works if the vaccine is real entirely misses the point of the motivation behind the decision and allows for an excuse to justify the behavior one way or the other. leaving it vague is the only way the ending works because its not even about whether or not the vaccine was real (definitely wasnt real tho)
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Nov 19, 2018 23:37
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if you're trying to ascribe good/evil morality to any of the parties involved in TLoU then you do not understand the ending
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Nov 19, 2018 23:42
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ElwoodCuse posted:Important: what did Joel think of the Yakuza games Yakuza 1 is about Kiryu protecting a surrogate daughter while they're both hunted by violent thugs, and in the end he successfully defends both her innocence and his honor. I guess it would lead to either Joel's cathartic emotional breakthrough or his suicide.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:42
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And Yakuza 6 is all about how Kiryu is really one of the worst parents ever so I guess it's full circle.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:45
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What % chance at saving humanity is worth sacrificing your daughter? 25%? 50%? 99%? Joel's answer is gunshot, so it doesnt matter if it 'works narritively' or if the lore supports it, or how real it is. He is fully willing to sacrifice humanities future and would have if it was 100% certain. Ellie would probably be super cool giving herself up at one of those % points.for sure by 99% this will work. The complexity comes with withholding even that choice from her 'for her own protection' I would have done the same thing as Joel. But I have daughters. I dont think that makes it the 'right' choice.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:45
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joel-chan
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Nov 19, 2018 23:48
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Also. I love him but Kiyru is the worst videogame dad that's not an explicit villian.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:50
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Joel is a loving monster and it's the entire reason the ending is good.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:51
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Smirking_Serpent posted:TLOU spoilers I think the fireflies are probably not a great bunch of lads, but I also think Joel took away a teenage girl's agency. Which is really a "who gives a poo poo, nice one Joel" to me.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:51
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Bombadilillo posted:Also. I love him but Kiyru is the worst videogame dad that's not an explicit villian. Hey kiddo, I’m gonna send you away for safety. *Haruka gets kidnapped again* Ah, well. Nevertheless.
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Nov 19, 2018 23:54
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As a teenager and this a minor, Ellie has no legal agency. According to ancient common law which undoubtedly governs Joel's actions, he had the legal and ethical obligation to decide for Ellie and also to gather a dowry for her suitors and therefore was correct in looking all bodies he could and also Anyways what's the first dad game ? Not of some random girl with you but like an actual kid, adopted or not Yakuza surely can't be the first
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Nov 19, 2018 23:55
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JBP posted:I think the fireflies are probably not a great bunch of lads, but I also think Joel took away a teenage girl's agency. Which is really a "who gives a poo poo, nice one Joel" to me. i dont know if i would argue that taking away a kids ability to die for politics is removing agency
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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mastershakeman posted:As a teenager and this a minor, Ellie has no legal agency. According to ancient common law which undoubtedly governs Joel's actions, he had the legal and ethical obligation to decide for Ellie and also to gather a dowry for her suitors and therefore was correct in looking all bodies he could and also Killer post/av combo
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Nov 19, 2018 23:56
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rabidsquid posted:i dont know if i would argue that taking away a kids ability to die for politics is removing agency It is to me, but it isn't the wrong thing to do. For whoever asked why I liked the ending, it's because you got to reflect on the game and the world. It's a crappy place, Joel wants to be happy, Ellie has a delusional chosen one complex and she's enabled by assholes experiencing the same.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:04
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What % chance at solving a guy's problems by bringing him whiskey is worth beating up a dozen rowdy youths?? 25%? 50%? 99%? Kiryu's answer is Tiger Drop, so it doesnt matter if it 'works narritively' or if the lore supports it, or how real it is. He is fully willing to sacrifice these kids' ability to walk and would have if it was 1% certain. Drunk guy might be cool passing up a drink at one of those % points. The complexity comes with withholding even that choice from him 'for his own protection' I would have done the same thing as Kiryu. But I have a drinking problem. I dont think that makes it the 'right' choice.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:07
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mastershakeman posted:Anyways what's the first dad game ? Not of some random girl with you but like an actual kid, adopted or not final fight. donkey kong.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:09
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acksplode posted:What % chance at solving a guy's problems by bringing him whiskey is worth beating up a dozen rowdy youths??  substory complete
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Nov 20, 2018 00:12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7L40u-2JpQ
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Nov 20, 2018 00:15
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Smirking_Serpent posted:TLOU spoilers Obviously there is gray area and that's part of what makes it interesting. You can draw your own conclusions about how full of poo poo they were from the story but obviously there is no answer that was set in stone. I think most of those responses you are referring to have been in response to the many people who like to say "Joel was actually da bad guy!!" which I think is a huge oversimplification. JBP posted:I think the fireflies are probably not a great bunch of lads, but I also think Joel took away a teenage girl's agency. Which is really a "who gives a poo poo, nice one Joel" to me. How did he do that? How did the fireflies provide her any agency in the first place when they attacked them and decided they were going to kill her without telling her? veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 20, 2018 00:18
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who gives a poo poo about the fireflies. the whole story is about joel, ellie and their relationship. the ending deals with how that is affected by joels actions and ellies response to those actions and kermit's everlasting love. geez.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:20
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It's not an oversimplification. Accepting Joel as anything other than the villain of Ellie's story requires placing the vaccine and its chance of success at the forefront, which it's just not. It's not "grey" or ambiguous, it's just not important.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:23
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Come on people, the story can be read from a number of ways. There is no one true way to interpret it.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:24
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Only brokebrained weirdos think Joel did the right thing at the end of TLOU, which is why this discussion resurfaces on these forums every few months.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:25
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I'm actually working for Naughty Dogs at the moment and we're subtitling the second game The Last of Us 2: Joel Badman?
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Nov 20, 2018 00:30
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"Joel is the bad guy" is the most basic bitch take on the ending out there.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:30
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