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What's the deal with "Chinese Taipei" even? How is it a better name for the PRC than Taiwan?
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Apr 15, 2015 20:50
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2015 20:55
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Franks Happy Place posted:I'm sure the famously effective PLA navy and air force will have no problem recreating D-Day against an opponent that has spent many decades digging in and practising how to shoot marines. I'm sure the famously uncorrupt PLAAF will have no problem procuring and maintaining sufficient stockpiles of jet fuel.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:55
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sincx posted:I think the PRC has realized it's not. The latest news is that China has rejected Taiwan's request to join the AIIB under the name "Chinese Taipei." The PRC probably wants Taiwan to use Taiwan's WTO designation, "Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu." I heard that they wanted "Taiwan, China" and Taiwan said no because it made it sound like they were under the PRC's jurisdiction. So China blocked Taiwan's membership because the AIIB is a serious and professional multi-lateral institution run by grown ups.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:56
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Fojar38 posted:As long as we're fantasizing about the CCP being humiliated remember that Taiwan has been preparing to fight this war for 65 years and counting. America might barely have to intervene. I'd like to point out that NATO had been preparing for a similar amount of time versus the former Warsaw Pact and still expected to likely be driven to the Weser at best and these were two similarly sized and economically powerful power blocs for most of it. The problem with defence in modern mechanized war that precision munitions and saturation bombardment results in a lot of your preparations to be blown up before they've managed to do a lot of damage mainly because by virtue of being preprepared they're also well known to the enemy. To put this in perspective the Soviet defences around the Kursk salient were still breached, the question would be whether the Taiwanese could hold off for long enough for the Americans to arrive or whether their own reserves can be thrown in at the sufficiently depleted enemy forces before the PLA can consolidate their positions and reinforce.
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Apr 15, 2015 21:01
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'd like to point out that NATO had been preparing for a similar amount of time versus the former Warsaw Pact and still expected to likely be driven to the Weser at best and these were two similarly sized and economically powerful power blocs for most of it. Sure, but amphibious operations are way different from rolling across dry land. They're really quite difficult in the best conditions. For the same reason you wouldn't expect the Americans to fare well at an an amphibious invasion of China.
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Apr 15, 2015 21:13
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Nintendo Kid posted:Sure, but amphibious operations are way different from rolling across dry land. They're really quite difficult in the best conditions. Thing is, America can land a brigade anywhere in the world within 12 hours. Right now, China can't. Unfortunately, China is building the capacity to be able to do so. Clearly, the only way to counter the emerging threat of Chinese foreign bases is with an American base and naval build-up. China wants an arms race with America, let's give it a go. I'm confident in America's rule of the seas. China's? Well, I just don't trust that nobody will sell their military assets piecemeal and their systems will be inoperable come time for a quick bout.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:18
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Nintendo Kid posted:Sure, but amphibious operations are way different from rolling across dry land. They're really quite difficult in the best conditions. In 1950 sure, not in 2015. The tools favour the well prepared attacker considerably more so than the defender. Essentially you wouldn't be able to contest them at the beach like the Germans did. Helicopters help in a lot of ways, the PLAN is still missing some considerable capabilities that carriers will eventually solve but establishing a landing and eventually taking the island is well within the capabilities of the PLA, what's in contention is how costly the ROC can make it and how long they could hold for. Without American intervention the possibility of successfully defending themselves indefinitely is zero.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:26
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2015 22:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:In 1950 sure, not in 2015. The tools favour the well prepared attacker considerably more so than the defender. Essentially you wouldn't be able to contest them at the beach like the Germans did. Helicopters help in a lot of ways, the PLAN is still missing some considerable capabilities that carriers will eventually solve but establishing a landing and eventually taking the island is well within the capabilities of the PLA, what's in contention is how costly the ROC can make it and how long they could hold for. Without American intervention the possibility of successfully defending themselves indefinitely is zero. The tools favor those with air superiority, and China ain't got poo poo on America's domination at death from above. "Hmm our drones off the coast of China have spotted a flotilla of 10,000 small craft heading conviently towards the projected Taiwanese landing sites, in conjunction with Chinese highest alert status and radar gone mad with contacts. Better wait and see, and not ready for WW3 whatsoever." Would be an awful shame of a Taiwanese nuke were to blow on the landing flotilla, an awful, awful shame. Like seriously, China invades Taiwan is one of those red lines that would result in nuclear war. China invades Taiwan, China has an uncontested route to the Pacific. We learned from WW2 that an evil empire with substantial Taiwanese bases is but a stepping stone to locking us out of the Philipines, taking the Dutch East Indies, and threating our eternal allies in Australia and New Zealand. Ain't no loving way China invades Taiwan and isn't met with approptiate retaliation, Chinese need to realize this and take it to heart before they do something monumentally stupid like start a world war. sincx posted:Who's going to pay for it? As an overtaxed American, I rather not. US client states should start ponying up the costs for American defense assistance. Sounds like what someone on the dole of the Chinese communist party would say. There's your funding, god bless democracy. Like seriously, give me one time in history since WW2 when a majority of Congress has opposed appropriating the funds necessary to contain communism. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 15, 2015 |
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Apr 15, 2015 22:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:In 1950 sure, not in 2015. The tools favour the well prepared attacker considerably more so than the defender. Essentially you wouldn't be able to contest them at the beach like the Germans did. Helicopters help in a lot of ways, the PLAN is still missing some considerable capabilities that carriers will eventually solve but establishing a landing and eventually taking the island is well within the capabilities of the PLA, what's in contention is how costly the ROC can make it and how long they could hold for. Without American intervention the possibility of successfully defending themselves indefinitely is zero. Uh, the ROC can make it super costly, considering the terrain. It's the whole reason Taiwan in particular was able to be held while other islands weren't practical to hold out on. Plus the US is currently in the habit of providing air cover to Taiwan, which would really put a crimp in the PLA ability to seize the island.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:48
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Nintendo Kid posted:Uh, the ROC can make it super costly, considering the terrain. It's the whole reason Taiwan in particular was able to be held while other islands weren't practical to hold out on. Plus the US is currently in the habit of providing air cover to Taiwan, which would really put a crimp in the PLA ability to seize the island. Hence why that giant artificial airfield in the South China Sea crosses one helluva American red-line, and is worth going to war over.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:51
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2015 23:01
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Nintendo Kid posted:Uh, the ROC can make it super costly, considering the terrain. It's the whole reason Taiwan in particular was able to be held while other islands weren't practical to hold out on. Plus the US is currently in the habit of providing air cover to Taiwan, which would really put a crimp in the PLA ability to seize the island. Is Taiwan littered with fortifications and other defensive infrastructure like South Korea?
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Apr 16, 2015 01:23
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It's supposed to be, but for obvious reasons they aren't open about it. I knew a Taiwanese guy who said there are SAM sites absolutely everywhere, he was trained for them when he was doing his service time. That's my fully sourced and reliable data. I always liked the big concrete tank blocker things on the highways north of Seoul.  The legs on either side have explosives in them so it can be dropped on the road.
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Apr 16, 2015 01:32
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Nintendo Kid posted:Uh, the ROC can make it super costly, considering the terrain. It's the whole reason Taiwan in particular was able to be held while other islands weren't practical to hold out on. Plus the US is currently in the habit of providing air cover to Taiwan, which would really put a crimp in the PLA ability to seize the island. It isn't in dispute that the ROC would need US air cover to have a fighting chance, what was being suggested was "could Taiwan hold off the PLA on its own", and that's obviously no. They would collapse eventually, even with the best case estimations.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:04
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But what if Chiang Kai-shek had been gay and black?
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Apr 16, 2015 03:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:It isn't in dispute that the ROC would need US air cover to have a fighting chance, what was being suggested was "could Taiwan hold off the PLA on its own", and that's obviously no. They would collapse eventually, even with the best case estimations. On a long enough timescale anything can be conquered, but that's utterly irrelevant. Does China really want to spend a year plus trying to seize all of Taiwan before we start talking about dealing with any resistance stuff? I doubt it.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:This doesn't make sense. What's your question again? I was under the impression it was "Why would China risk a war with the US it may very well lose (Knowing that losing would result in Bad Things?)"; the gist of it is that not going to war would also result in Bad Things. Whether either result is true or isn't relevant when the issue is considering their perceptions. It's what you said though because your command of the English language is almost as dispiriting as your level of analysis.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:27
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Reminder that a theoretical invasion of Taiwan would dwarf the D-Day landings and be similar in scope to Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands where casualties for the invading force were projected to be half a million dead even with both air and sea supremacy. Anyone who thinks that the PRC would have a chance in hell at pulling it off is delusional, unless Beijing manages to ally with wizards and/or an interstellar empire.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:44
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The success or failure of any military operation is a function of the relative strength and leadership of the opposing forces, as well as factors such as terrain and logistics imo.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:47
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Fojar38 posted:Reminder that a theoretical invasion of Taiwan would dwarf the D-Day landings and be similar in scope to Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands where casualties for the invading force were projected to be half a million dead even with both air and sea supremacy. Quick  here, but that would be half a million casualties, which includes the injured. Purple hearts aren't just awarded posthumously.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:03
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WarpedNaba posted:Quick Eh, I just glanced at the Wikipedia page and a letter to LeMay estimated "half a million" American dead, not just casualties.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:17
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I just edited the wikipedia page and a letter to LeMay estimated "a hundred billion" American dead, not just causalities.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:42
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Arglebargle III posted:I just edited the wikipedia page and a letter to LeMay estimated "a hundred billion" American dead, not just causalities. 
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Apr 16, 2015 05:43
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Fojar38 posted:Anyone who thinks that the PRC would have a chance in hell at pulling it off is delusional, unless Beijing manages to ally with wizards and/or an interstellar empire. I would have hoped that over 5000 years of uninterrupted Chinese history there would be at least a few wizards willing to lend a helping hand 
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Apr 16, 2015 06:14
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With 30 million surplus males, I'm sure they'll have more than enough wizards in the near future.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:42
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VideoTapir posted:With 30 million surplus males, I'm sure they'll have more than enough wizards in the near future.  But seriously, though. Gotta feel sorry for them.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:53
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sincx posted:You sound like someone being paid by the ROC to lobby Congress. To be fair, ROC is paying over 2% of GDP on defense, which is a relatively high amount as countries go. They are paying at least partly for their own protection. It's a higher proportion than the UK will be spending in a few years.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:58
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China Megathread - Gay Black Tom Clancy Remembrance Station
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Apr 16, 2015 07:01
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nrook posted:To be fair, ROC is paying over 2% of GDP on defense, which is a relatively high amount as countries go. They are paying at least partly for their own protection. It's a higher proportion than the UK will be spending in a few years. General view in Taiwan on why we bought fun toys like the newest Apache attack helicopters and poo poo is that we are paying "at least partially for the costs of American protection". Every major defense procurement was made into legislation fights because we probably received some of the worst prices in the world for armaments. I believe the next rumored large procurement plan is to buy a few hundred M1A1s, well actually this has been announced since I think the early 2000s but kept getting delayed for other projects such as upgrading our F16s, new helicopters, new SAM system, new APC…etc.
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Apr 16, 2015 08:45
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Arglebargle III posted:I just edited the wikipedia page and a letter to LeMay estimated "a hundred billion" American dead, not just causalities. Allahu ackbar
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Apr 16, 2015 10:08
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Nintendo Kid posted:On a long enough timescale anything can be conquered... Good. Discussion over. quote:It's what you said though because your command of the English language is almost as dispiriting as your level of analysis. I still don't understand what you're trying to say. I'd suggest actually elaborating on what you're trying to say we can actually discuss it; you got this sort of sarcastic thing going where its impossible to divine what you're trying to claim and I would rather I understand your point before proceeding than to discuss what I interpret you as saying. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 15:02
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You used wrong words and said something you didn't intend to. There's nothing there there.
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Apr 16, 2015 15:09
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This is how I see a war between China and the U.S. going down...it ain't gonna be pretty. I'm imagining a fictional Chinese soldier named Le Muza and his friend De Le Te, through whose eyes you will experience the conflict. The coming war between the US and China begins with Taiwan trying to play in the Olympics under the title of Formosa[22] The power vacuum caused by the death of Xi Jin Ping also exacerbates the issue, as Li Keqiang and Zhang Dejiang are both candidates to become General Secretary, with the former supported by Taiwan (also known as the black Lion) and the latter by Singapore and Malaysia (the White Lions).[24] This erupts into a full-scale war known as the "Lion War", with either side using whatever means possible to secure their influence within the party's highest ranks. This includes bearing an illegitimate child,[25] killing other possible heirs,[26] betrayal,[27] assassination[28] and false identities.[29] Throughout the war, the rich and connected regard commoners and peasants as animals,[30] and many commoners try to take revenge on the nobles, who abandoned them during the Gai Ge Kai Fang.[31] Most join the so-called Death Corps to fight against the nobles' soldiers, and many die in vain. All the while, the U.S. sits on the sidelines Le Muza joins a mercenary group,[34] led by Ga Fu Ga Li An, who protects Li Keqiang's daughter from being hunted. De Le Te joins the pan Malaysian/Singapore forces to rise up through the ranks and gain control over his own destiny.[35] Le Muza and De Le Te are reunited when Ga Fu Ga Li An attempts to take Li's daugther to General Ge, though this proves futile. Ga Fu Ga Li An suggests visiting a mysterious 12-Dan Go Player named Wei, while De Le Te continues to work in the shadows, working with multiple sides to realize his ambitions.[36] Along the way to Beijing to seek out Wei, Le Muza meets Takamari, a Japanese man in possession of an old Japanese map showing the Diao Yu islands clearly having belonged to China since the Shang Dynasty. Hunted by a trading company for the power it contains. However, soon after the encounter with General Ge, Le Muza discovers that an elaborate plot was set by the American-backed umbrella protest movement, which had morphed into a full-fledged terrorist organization that had severely crippled and interfered with the Chinese economy. In their desire to control China, the umbrellaists--now allied with the Death Corps--uses the legend of the so-called Senkaku Islands to stir up trouble,[38] and fuel the Lion War between Li and Zhang.[39] To stave off Le Muza's interference, General Ge uses the Diaoyu map to transform into a legendary demon,[40] and Le Muza has no choice but to slay him/it. As a result, Le Muza is regarded a traitor to China, and he is approached by the the U.S. soldier, Jack Ryan, to defect to the U.S., which is preparing to interfere in the Lion War conflict to secure their power within the East Asian sphere of influence. Jack Ryan, having played both Advance Wars titles on the DS and also having read some quotes from Sun Tzu, is aware that attacking the Chinese units from side tiles will increase their damage output, and Le Muza confirms that when he slew General Ge in demon form, he had only a 33% chance to hit him from the front, but greater than a 66% chance to hit from from tiles to the side and back. Jack Ryan and Le Muza, leading a full control group of naval units position themselves, but soon realize that China uses a hex-system rather than tiles, and they struggle to adapt. Even though the Chinese battlefield is hex-based, the Chinese units can still use multiple unit stacking, while Ryan and Le Muza's forced inexplicably cannot. Imagine one well equipped U.S. Marine landing on the coast of Shanghai, and as he waits for his next turn from disembarking to be able to move, a stack of sixty Chinese riflemen attack him one at a time until his hitpoints are totally gone. Ryan and Le Muza realize this isn't going to work--not without Japan's help at least--so they open diplomatic channels with Japan even as their spread out units die over and over to Chinese deathstacks. Japan refuses Ryan and Le Muza's desperate plea, and a rocket flies overhead the conflict. It's going to Alpha Centauri...Japan used the time that the US and China squabbled to max out their science production. Basically, in this day and age, anyone who goes into a full-scale conflict with hot guns is going to put themselves too far behind considering how much science can get output this late into the game. I think for this reason you ain't gonna see a full-blown war between either of these players. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 15:34
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Bring back unit stacking for Americans!
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Apr 16, 2015 15:49
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angel opportunity posted:Ondore's lies
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Apr 16, 2015 16:49
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angel opportunity posted:This is how I see a war between China and the U.S. going down...it ain't gonna be pretty. I'm imagining a fictional Chinese soldier named Le Muza and his friend De Le Te, through whose eyes you will experience the conflict.
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Apr 17, 2015 01:48
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Fojar38 posted:Reminder that a theoretical invasion of Taiwan would dwarf the D-Day landings and be similar in scope to Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands where casualties for the invading force were projected to be half a million dead even with both air and sea supremacy. I wonder if grunts in the PLA would think twice about participating in a bloodbath against fellow ethnic Chinese. I mean for that level of casualties to be acceptable Taiwan would have to do something absolutely monstrous.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:05
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angel opportunity posted:This is how I see a war between China and the U.S. going down...it ain't gonna be pretty. I'm imagining a fictional Chinese soldier named Le Muza and his friend De Le Te, through whose eyes you will experience the conflict. 
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Apr 17, 2015 02:09
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