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Totally my bad, then. I thought the Dorn thing happened after.
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Jul 24, 2014 15:25
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DirtyRobot posted:Totally my bad, then. I thought the Dorn thing happened after. Honestly, it's not like the Warhammer timeline is hard to follow or anything...
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Jul 24, 2014 15:53
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pentyne posted:By the time of his death he despised his Legion so much he welcomed death as a chance to escape them. Most of that was that all the recruits were drawn from the criminal underclass, i.e the ones best at surviving and killing and the rot of Nostramo had followed him even after the planet died. They were pretty much perfect in the brief period between "universal unrest requires massive brutal force to dispel" and "Imperium's all set guys time to retire". That and his visions of the future probably make him batshit crazy from the start. Well, more specifically, pretty much as soon as he was gone, Nostromo went from peaceful crime-free mining planet right back to lawless shithole but Kurze didn't really notice this until it was too late and like all th enew guys in his legion were made up of unprincipled, borderline sociopathic criminals. Probably the influence of having these guys as his officers helped push him over the edge of excess in terms of not knowing where to stop with the terror tactics. Honestly, most descriptions of them seem to show that they were rather ill-disciplined and not particularly great legionaries either. I think Kurze and The Lion were pretty much the only Primarchs who were unable to maintain order on their homeworlds (along with Angron who never even got a chance to rule his) which is naturally a source of great shame to them. Coincidentally, both were also the only ones who grew up as wildmen with little to no human contact until much later in life. Fried Chicken posted:How does any of that contradict it? Well the crusades honestly didn't have anything close to real-time communications or coordination - the massive distances, weird time distortions, and general unreliability of astropathic communications means that by necessity each primarch operates independently often with limited oversight once out on a crusade. That's honestly the whole reason for their existence - the Emperor can't be in two places at once so he needs utterly loyal agents who can command in his stead and who are so manifestly charismatic and superhuman that there won't be excessive power struggles over who gets to be the personal leader of each crusade group. So probably they hear whispered rumors of how insanely terrifying Kurze is but, since he's a primarch, these were probably written off as exaggeration and hearsay until Dorn himself personally witnesses poo poo.
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Jul 24, 2014 18:57
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Cream_Filling posted:I think Kurze and The Lion were pretty much the only Primarchs who were unable to maintain order on their homeworlds (along with Angron who never even got a chance to rule his) which is naturally a source of great shame to them. Coincidentally, both were also the only ones who grew up as wildmen with little to no human contact until much later in life. Perturbro really needs some characterization and fleshing out
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Jul 24, 2014 19:13
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Fried Chicken posted:Perturbro had Olympia in open rebellion towards then end of the crusade and purged it, the shame of being the only primarch (at the time) to lose control of his home world is part of why he sided with Horus Aside from Angron, who couldn't even conquer his world to begin with.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:39
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Fried Chicken posted:Perturbro had Olympia in open rebellion towards then end of the crusade and purged it, the shame of being the only primarch (at the time) to lose control of his home world is part of why he sided with Horus He really needs to be the dark version of Dorn, so maybe aristocratic to the point of ignoring the proletariat entirely.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:40
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Fried Chicken posted:Perturbro had Olympia in open rebellion towards then end of the crusade and purged it, the shame of being the only primarch (at the time) to lose control of his home world is part of why he sided with Horus I realize you only said "part" but I thought the main reason why Perturabo defected was being repeatedly passed over for glory or recognition in lieu of the Imperial Fists.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:41
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He never had a mentor to teach him anything and raise him, even the two Primarchs that are never mentioned apparently had one. He was alone until the Emperor showed up and gave him a name, other than Night Haunter.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:31
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JerryLee posted:I realize you only said "part" but I thought the main reason why Perturabo defected was being repeatedly passed over for glory or recognition in lieu of the Imperial Fists. Angel Exterminatus explains it some: Perturabo never wanted to be a soldier. He was forced to be, first by the tyrants of Olympia and then by the Emperor, and Perturabo accepted it without complaint. He always did what was asked of him, no matter how unpleasant and arduous and inglorious, and his legion followed suit. Perturabo and his legion were experts at a particularly ugly and brutal form of warfare, and they always seemed to get the short end of the stick as a result. But they accepted it without complaint. They gave everything and asked for nothing in return. What started to eat at them was the fact that for all of their service, all their sacrifices and victories, they never were recognized or praised. The only time they featured in a piece of grand artwork commemorating the Great Crusade, they were literally depicted face down in the dirt while the Imperial Fists raised their banner high in victory. Perturabo himself idolized Leonardo da Vinci, and his private sanctum was filled with fantastical drawings and plans for buildings that Perturabo never built. Nothing he built ever quite lived up to the vision, and all too often his work was perverted by others. The ampitheatre on Nikea where Magnus was tried was of Perturabo's design - it was supposed to be an athletic arena, for contests of honest skill between superhumans to challenge and improve each other. Instead, it was used as a grand courtroom where the verdict was decided before the building's foundation was even laid. Angel Exterminatus includes a scene where, via the power of Slaanesh, Perturabo and Fulgrim get to see Perturabo's vision, the very fulfillment of his deepest wishes: a utopia where all contribute and are valued for their contributions, filled with amazing edifices constructed by Perturabo who reigns not as a warlord or supreme soldier, but as a beloved diplomat and builder. What seals the deal is the purge of Olympia. According to Perturabo, his allegiance to Horus is based on a simple fact: Horus forgave Perturabo for his bitter rage and purge of his homeworld, and lauded Perturabo for his victories and particular skills. Both things people like Guilliman and Dorn would never do, in Perturabo's mind.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:05
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JerryLee posted:I realize you only said "part" but I thought the main reason why Perturabo defected was being repeatedly passed over for glory or recognition in lieu of the Imperial Fists. Well, at least he thinks he was. It sounds like his problem is that he's a cold fish - he doesn't have the charisma of Dorn and on top of that his overweening pride means that he never actually complains about any of the stuff that's bothering him until it explodes out of him. Similarly, he was never able to win the loyalty and admiration of his homeworld, either. The Iron Warriors keep getting the hardest, most grinding sieges because they win and never complain or ask for anything new so everyone assumes they must just like it or something. He's just as talented in terms of art, technology, and culture as his brothers but he does it all in secret and never tells anyone so everyone assumes he's just a boring robot. Basically he's a big spiteful nerd. Naturally, goons love him.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:10
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Plucky Brit posted:Aside from Angron, who couldn't even conquer his world to begin with. Which wasn't really fair for people to give him poo poo about, because Nuceria was so advanced technologically that the Emperor forbade Angron from purging the planet since they need its technological resources and experience. The other Primarchs more or less lucked out and were adopted/fostered by benevolent patrons who's influence let them rise though society.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:21
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Angron was also leading a bronze age rebellion against people with energy weapons and tanks. He did the best anyone could have with the 40k-grade lovely hand he was dealt.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:39
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Pfffffttt... Angron did better than just conquer Nuceria. He went back and slaughtered the hell out of it. Then he got the awesome perk of ascending into demon princedom as a result.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:41
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Cythereal posted:Angron was also leading a bronze age rebellion against people with energy weapons and tanks. He did the best anyone could have with the 40k-grade lovely hand he was dealt. A successful rebellion. He only lost when literally every warlord on the planet united and tried to crush him and his 50k numbered army, and then the Emperor teleported him out, let his family die horrible deaths and then say "We need this planet's technology, I expect you to rationally accept this and move past it seamlessly." AndyElusive posted:Pfffffttt... Angron did better than just conquer Nuceria. He went back and slaughtered the hell out of it. The tipping point was probably when he went back was "Oh, you're Angron? The coward that fled from his last stand and let his weak rear end slave friends die to the last? Welcome back, you loving pussy"
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Jul 24, 2014 23:56
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Cream_Filling posted:Probably the influence of having these guys as his officers helped push him over the edge of excess in terms of not knowing where to stop with the terror tactics. Honestly, most descriptions of them seem to show that they were rather ill-disciplined and not particularly great legionaries either. Curze already knew how it was all going to end. and as Sevatar point s out in Prince of Crows, he had almost no leg to stand on when codemning his murderous, criminal children, as terror and murder were always his first, not last resorts in enforcing his vision and goals. I'd argue some on if the Night Lords were decent legionnaires. They manage to hold the Dark Angels back for three years during the Heresy and were supposedly the first on the walls of the Emperor's palace. They had revered military minds like Malcharion who were universally admired, and commanders like Sevatar who were feared throughout the imperium. It took the combined might of every last Ultramarine chapter to drive them out of Tsalgualsa, and only a fraction of the legion remained there at the time. Even so, most managed to escape. Their natural affinities may have left them a bit hobbled in a fair fight, but fighting fair is for suckers. "It has been said by tacticians throughout the ages of mankind that no plan survives contact with the enemy. I do not waste my time countering the plans of my foes, brother. I never care what the enemy intends to do, for they will never be allowed to do it. Stir within their hearts the gift of truest terror, and all their plans are ruined in the desperate struggle merely to survive."
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Jul 25, 2014 01:12
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Sephyr posted:It took the combined might of every last Ultramarine chapter to drive them out of Tsalgualsa, and only a fraction of the legion remained there at the time. Even so, most managed to escape. As much as I like the traitor legions being badass, it's a bit of a stretch to say that every last Ultramarine descendant was "needed"--from the descriptions I've read (mostly the Night Lords trilogy) it was pretty clearly a case of deliberate massive overkill. Their ability to escape was pretty cool though.
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Jul 25, 2014 01:39
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JerryLee posted:As much as I like the traitor legions being badass, it's a bit of a stretch to say that every last Ultramarine descendant was "needed"--from the descriptions I've read (mostly the Night Lords trilogy) it was pretty clearly a case of deliberate massive overkill. Their ability to escape was pretty cool though. Yeah, the Ultramarines showed up to wipe them out no matter the cost, so when some Night Lords were bragging about killing the marines or blowing up a ship people like Talos had to yell at them going "It doesn't matter, they outnumber us 100-1 and that number keeps growing! This is an attempt at extermination!"
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Jul 25, 2014 01:47
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JerryLee posted:As much as I like the traitor legions being badass, it's a bit of a stretch to say that every last Ultramarine descendant was "needed"--from the descriptions I've read (mostly the Night Lords trilogy) it was pretty clearly a case of deliberate massive overkill. Their ability to escape was pretty cool though. I liked that scene for how it portrayed the Codex. It ends up being a giant It-Then-Else chart that so long as you follow it you end up with the equivalent of a primarch leading you. A codex template invasion and the Chaos legion has no choice but to flee under horrendous losses, just like if Guilliman himself was there coordinating things. Of course 10,000 years later almost no one has a complete copy and there are 3 new enemies that the Codex wasn't written to encompass, but still. Way better than how McNeill handled it.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:36
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I think that one line where Talos (I think) points out how smoothly and well-coordinated the assault on their homeworld was executed by so many marines did more to make you feel how incredible the Codex could be than anything else GW has ever put out.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:44
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Fried Chicken posted:I liked that scene for how it portrayed the Codex. It ends up being a giant It-Then-Else chart that so long as you follow it you end up with the equivalent of a primarch leading you. A codex template invasion and the Chaos legion has no choice but to flee under horrendous losses, just like if Guilliman himself was there coordinating things. Well once again, the fact that it was massive overkill is a confounding factor in trying to evaluate how much credit the Codex gets. Past-Talos is certainly impressed by their coordination in his internal monologue, but in the same book (I think?) he and the ship fight off some Ultramarines descendants and their strike cruiser, in a more evenly matched fight. My tentative conclusion would be that the Codex is probably an excellent set of practices but not nearly the sort of win-button that you'd take it to be if you wrongly assumed that the Tsagualsa invasion was otherwise evenly matched. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 03:54
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And even then, the Ultramarines during the Heresy era knew Guilliman's wisdom wasn't to be completely adhered to. Know No Fear notes that Guilliman's proto-Codex includes the clause "If something not listed here is working better, gently caress established strategy and do that more effective thing."
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Jul 25, 2014 04:06
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Cythereal posted:And even then, the Ultramarines during the Heresy era knew Guilliman's wisdom wasn't to be completely adhered to. Know No Fear notes that Guilliman's proto-Codex includes the clause "If something not listed here is working better, gently caress established strategy and do that more effective thing." Didn't McNeil effectively retcon all the interesting Ultramarine fluff that Abnett added in Know No Fear?
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Jul 25, 2014 04:27
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Fried Chicken posted:Like Angron, he hated the hypocrisy of the Imperium, that murder and terror was unacceptable but the Emperor sent him specifically to murder and terrorize into compliance, and then that he was despised for it. Dorn was leading a crusade and had Cruze do this thing knowing full well what it entailed, but afterwards went to bring him to heel for the Night Lords doing what they were charged with. Cruze's response was one of the worst possible things in the fledgling Imperium, a sneak attack on a primarch, beating Dorn to near death. I remember reading about Johnson and Curze coming to blows at one point but I don't recall this. When did it happen? Cythereal posted:
Perturabo was a space communist? pentyne posted:A successful rebellion. He only lost when literally every warlord on the planet united and tried to crush him and his 50k numbered army, and then the Emperor teleported him out, let his family die horrible deaths and then say "We need this planet's technology, I expect you to rationally accept this and move past it seamlessly." I read that in Betrayer. Angron literally pulps a general-woman's head in his fist when asked who he really is. I love the scene ADB painted as this old general of the Nucerian army goes through a mental checklist of her ancient history: * Guy has an archaic slave crown of the Nails in his head that hasn't been used in a century * Guy is literally 10' x 8' wide * Is named Angron * Calls everyone a high rider, a phrase that is only insulting when Angron uses it She then pisses herself and tells Angron that the world has more or less forgotten about him, but what little is remembered is that he fled his last battle in fear and shame and let his lovely slave army die. Infuriated that he's remembered in such a way that is far from the truth, he takes the womans head in his bare hand and crushes it. He then gesticulates to other people in the room with his hand sopping wet with blood and brain matter. It was a pretty good book imo. lite_sleepr fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 09:39
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I finished The Emperor's Gift yesterday, and I started with Soul Hunter today. Man, I don't know where I would put ADB in comparison to Abnett, possibly at the same level quality-wise but his stuff is seriously great. The Bjorn chapter in The Emperor's Gift was great, even though I had spoiled myself re: Hyperion's identity.
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Jul 25, 2014 09:59
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Azran posted:I finished The Emperor's Gift yesterday, and I started with Soul Hunter today. Man, I don't know where I would put ADB in comparison to Abnett, possibly at the same level quality-wise but his stuff is seriously great. The Bjorn chapter in The Emperor's Gift was great, even though I had spoiled myself re: Hyperion's identity. I did enjoy everyone just bowing to Bjorn because he's just a ridiculously old bastard.
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Jul 25, 2014 10:26
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boredsatellite posted:I did enjoy everyone just bowing to Bjorn because he's just a ridiculously old bastard. ADB used to and probably still does post to /tg/ over on 4chan (as well as a few other 40k specific forums) and the hivemind over there has decided Bjorn is, in fact, the oldest and the grumpiest. As best I can tell, ADB just ran with it.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:48
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vigorous sodomy posted:I remember reading about Johnson and Curze coming to blows at one point but I don't recall this. When did it happen? quote:I read that in Betrayer. Angron literally pulps a general-woman's head in his fist when asked who he really is. I love the scene ADB painted as this old general of the Nucerian army goes through a mental checklist of her ancient history: Like someone said when it came out "ADB got literature in my bolter-porn"
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Jul 25, 2014 14:53
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VanSandman posted:ADB used to and probably still does post to /tg/ over on 4chan (as well as a few other 40k specific forums) and the hivemind over there has decided Bjorn is, in fact, the oldest and the grumpiest. As best I can tell, ADB just ran with it. He does post at bolter&chainsword and another forum whose name escapes me now. He shows incredible restraint dealing with the shitlords there. A shockingly large number of them hate his work (mainly for not fellating their idea of how awesome their chapter of choice should be) and aren't at all shy about getting really abusive about it. There is already a storm of insipid whining and hate forming for Black Legion 2 or 3 , and the first one isn't even out yet.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:58
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He got in kind of a flame war with one of those bullshit rumormonger types (I think it was ghost21 or something) when the guy namedropped ADB at which point ADB posted to say that never happened and he has no clue who the guy is, only for the rumormonger to start getting all defensive and nasty about it. He's more active than any other BL writers on forums I think.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:59
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SRM posted:He got in kind of a flame war with one of those bullshit rumormonger types (I think it was ghost21 or something) when the guy namedropped ADB at which point ADB posted to say that never happened and he has no clue who the guy is, only for the rumormonger to start getting all defensive and nasty about it. He's more active than any other BL writers on forums I think. The best part (the only good part) was then a bunch of other HH authors popped in to say they had no idea who the gently caress this guy was saying he'd been at the meetings. I'm glad for the opportunities to interact with authors I like, and there is a good argument for it as a marketing strategy, but man do I doubt it is worth the abuse he gets from assholes
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Jul 25, 2014 15:09
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VanSandman posted:ADB used to and probably still does post to /tg/ over on 4chan (as well as a few other 40k specific forums) and the hivemind over there has decided Bjorn is, in fact, the oldest and the grumpiest. As best I can tell, ADB just ran with it. Yeah ADB seems to chill at /tg/ now and then and it may be me but I think he enjoys posting there than the other forums. And yes Bjorn is the grumpiest and any other book that states otherwise is considered heresy
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Jul 25, 2014 15:26
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Fried Chicken posted:i don't think it is in a novel or short story, it is just general background fluff. It's in one of the books they wound eachother so badly their honour guard have to carry them both of planet.
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Jul 25, 2014 15:49
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Sandweed posted:It's in one of the books they wound eachother so badly their honour guard have to carry them both of planet. Pretty sure that is his fight with the Lion
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Jul 25, 2014 15:53
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Angron and Russ fight as well
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Jul 25, 2014 16:55
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vigorous sodomy posted:Perturabo was a space communist? It's suggested that he was more of a Classical idealist and that his dream city was more or less an idealized Classical-era Athens. The Iron Warriors became yet another legion to get some vague Greek overtones, probably due to the name of their homeworld.
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Jul 25, 2014 17:01
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It's a wonder that Angry Man wasn't one of the Primarchs that got his poo poo expunged along with the 2nd and 11th. It's like The Emperor met him after beaming his rear end up from his last stand and thought he'd make for a fun pet project. Then after discovering he couldn't undo the Nails without making his son brain dead figured he'd make the best of a lovely situation and give him the entire War Hounds legion to gently caress with. If the kind of bullshit that went on with the World Eaters and Night Lords doesn't get your name and your legion wiped out of Imperial records for all goddamn time, then what the hell DOES?!
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Jul 25, 2014 17:23
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Magnus, Lorgar, and Angron all get told in the Horus Heresy books that the Emperor, Malcador, and certain primarchs had seriously discussed expunging them, and Sanguinius lived in fear that he would also be on that list.
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Jul 25, 2014 17:30
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AndyElusive posted:It's a wonder that Angry Man wasn't one of the Primarchs that got his poo poo expunged along with the 2nd and 11th. Yet at the same time its makes you wonder what the hell did the 2nd and the 11th do to become expunged.
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Jul 25, 2014 17:33
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I seriously wish they'd do something with the 2nd and 11th now because of that. The only way those two were killed now compared to Kurze and Angron is if one or both were raised solely by Xenos like the Eldar, maybe another by the Orks, or even some other Xenos race who were completely and utterly wiped out by the Space Wolves?
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Jul 25, 2014 17:37
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Vadoc posted:I seriously wish they'd do something with the 2nd and 11th now because of that. The only way those two were killed now compared to Kurze and Angron is if one or both were raised solely by Xenos like the Eldar, maybe another by the Orks, or even some other Xenos race who were completely and utterly wiped out by the Space Wolves? They're not going to. GW has been pretty clear that the 2nd and 11th are going to be one of the big mysteries of the setting. We know they were pals with Lorgar and it's alluded that Leman Russ was the one who took them down, and the Ultramarines may have assimilated the survivors, but that's about all. ADB said he had to beg and plead with GW to include as much mention of them in The First Heretic as he did.
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Jul 25, 2014 17:42
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