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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The centaur does 9,11+10 if it charges, and 9,11 in melee all other times. It's not incredibly frontloaded. I apologize, you're right, the centaur always does more damage than some characters' max HP, but I do think that the +10 is kind of a huge deal, because it brings the damage from insta-drop to insta-kill for squishy characters and to insta-drop for the tougher ones.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:41
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friendlyfire posted:Good. I enjoy games where player death is a common thing. I also enjoy games where it is not a thing. Maybe 5e is the former, though? You're arguing with a thread full of people who say things like this Babylon Astronaut posted:There is no acceptable threshold for critical failure. If you want to be comically terrible five percent of the time, play Rocky and Bullwinkle Party Game. Your perspective is almost fundamentally incompatible with the prevailing philosophy itt and neither side is going to budge an inch Surrender now and acquiesce to quick death (imagine a centaur charged you)
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Oct 14, 2014 22:41
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30.5 Days posted:I know it isn't what you said, or what you meant, but it's what you're doing. If you're rebalancing undead encounters based on the fact that your party had turn undead, that is what you are doing. Also worth mentioning is that the cleric as a class is probably the most poorly designed concept to come out of D&D. It is the only class you are expected to 100% always have in the party in most versions of the game, and does things that the other classes simply cannot. Keeping it as a class presents a trap option because all of the other classes are presented as an option to fill a slot while the Cleric is simply required no matter what. You can play 5th Edition without a Cleric, but if you do than almost every suggestion the game gives you of how to structure encounters or adventures is going to be useless without just hiring one.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:41
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friendlyfire posted:Thanks for all these cheap one-liners that I and everybody else really enjoys, please keep them coming. THATS WHAT YOUR MOM SAID! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 14, 2014 22:42
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Also even if the centaur is too high CR-wise, "signficant bonus damage on turn one" is almost always a terrible design, because there is no tactical response available to the players, you're just saying "gently caress you" for no particular reason. The system already has bonuses out of ambush built in, who looks at that and says, "oh but the penalty for missing a single group perception roll should be so much higher!"
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Oct 14, 2014 22:46
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Wait were people seriously arguing in favor of critical failures rolls?
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Oct 14, 2014 22:46
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cbirdsong posted:How can you know if you don't read them? "Memorize or cross-reference with a list of poorly-rated monsters from some forum" is not a terribly great answer, even though it is probably going to be the solution for 5e. I imagine that someone with more interest will create a more accurate list of monster CR that will fit on a single page of PDF, people will print it out and stick it in the back of the monstrous manual. That should suffice for most games. cbirdsong posted:If you did this in a game with a decent monster/encounter system and reasonable class balance, it would completely throw everything out of whack. Making big interlocking game systems work well together is hard, and if everything was working together smoothly, you'd have to be much, much more careful when throwing out these kind of sweeping house rules. I'm guessing the only reason this seems okay to you is because you're so used to weird labyrinthine piles of rules that somehow end up kinda working, like the non-4e versions of D&D, where class balance was mostly accomplished through people not wanting to be an rear end in a top hat who overshadows their friends, and encounter balance is managed by the DM fudging things when they go off the rails, and everyone still having a lot of fun because they're playing a game with their friends. I really appreciate your candid engagement. It's very atypical for this thread. I'm not averse to pencilling in rules changes, and would probably do so even if 5e was essentially perfect as written. In my view, a sub-powered class is one of the easiest things to fix because it is pretty easy to just make it better. I'm actually glad that 5e isn't some delicate web of perfectly tensioned steel webbing, where removing a single one will cause it to snarl impossibly. I like that there is room for nudging aspects of the rules one way or another. A boring class is more difficult, which is what the fighter is. I think that the fighter is probably designed to be kind of boring, both as a sop to grognards and to give new players an easy way to participate. That's not necessary for my games, but it might be a good idea for the hobby. Also: Only because you brought it up, I want to assert that my own games don't just "kinda work" or rely too much on peoples' tacit agreement to not out-shine each other. But I really have no aversion to house ruling and don't perceive it as damning to a rules system, especially d&d. I was the guy going through the 3e PHB with a sharpee the month after it came out.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:47
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Your perspective is almost fundamentally incompatible with the prevailing philosophy itt and neither side is going to budge an inch
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Oct 14, 2014 22:48
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Really Pants posted:You support 5e, it's too late to pretend you know what anyone else enjoys. I hate the hate in this subforum and see people that do enjoy it being constantly shouted down by the preponderance of 4e grogs that hang around here. I'd like to see more positive views represented here without being shat on. I don't really want to play 5e, at least as written, but I think TG is so deeply uncharitable about 5e that 5e players are hedged out and have to go to other forums to even talk about it.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:52
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Zombies' Downfall posted:You're arguing with a thread full of people who say things like this We are all goons. I can no more stop posting than they. Nobody was ever going to change their mind about elf games, especially since this is strangely the most enthusiastic 4e-grog community on the internet. Still, it would be nice if the 5e thread could actually be about 5e instead of endless poorly-disguised "why don't people just play 4e" posts.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:55
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friendlyfire posted:I hate the hate in this subforum and see people that do enjoy it being constantly shouted down by the preponderance of 4e grogs that hang around here. I'd like to see more positive views represented here without being shat on. I don't really want to play 5e, at least as written, but I think TG is so deeply uncharitable about 5e that 5e players are hedged out and have to go to other forums to even talk about it. People keep saying this, but the conversation is pretty varied when 5e players are willing to talk candidly about the system's problems and also its good parts. The problem is that 5e players for some reason feel the need to defend their e-honor about poo poo that is unmistakably bad, and then we get 5-10 page arguments about whether the intellect devourere is ACTUALLY that deadly like every three days, and then you come in at the end and ask the guy who got one-shot by the centaur "okay but what was your marching order" as thought that matters and yeah you're going to get ridiculed, that's ridiculous. Equally ridiculous "I prefer badly designed systems because they let me pretend to be a game designer and try to fix it whereas if the system is well-designed it's harder to not mess them up when you change something" and "okay but if the encounters aren't totally randomized difficulty, isn't that just boring?" poo poo is also going to get made fun of because that's insane. When people just come in here and talk about their games or whatever things go pretty smoothly.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:55
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friendlyfire posted:I hate the hate in this subforum and see people that do enjoy it being constantly shouted down by the preponderance of 4e grogs that hang around here. I'd like to see more positive views represented here without being shat on. I don't really want to play 5e, at least as written, but I think TG is so deeply uncharitable about 5e that 5e players are hedged out and have to go to other forums to even talk about it. Lots of people post here about playing or liking 5e without being shouted down. The key is to not spout old bullshit that everyone's sick and tired of refuting.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:56
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30.5 Days posted:Also even if the centaur is too high CR-wise, "signficant bonus damage on turn one" is almost always a terrible design, because there is no tactical response available to the players, you're just saying "gently caress you" for no particular reason. The system already has bonuses out of ambush built in, who looks at that and says, "oh but the penalty for missing a single group perception roll should be so much higher!" I think that having the players start on their back foot in some way can make for an interesting encounter in any edition of d&d. It certainly worked well for me in 4e! Really Pants posted:Lots of people post here about playing or liking 5e without being shouted down. The key is to not spout old bullshit that everyone's sick and tired of refuting. Funny, you don't seem sick of refuting it.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:57
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Yeah, those loving grognards with their insistence on well designed games that work, and not jumping back into a lovely non-system for encounter building that has never worked and is based on nothing but tummy feels.friendlyfire posted:We are all goons. I can no more stop posting than they. Nobody was ever going to change their mind about elf games, especially since this is strangely the most enthusiastic 4e-grog community on the internet. Still, it would be nice if the 5e thread could actually be about 5e instead of endless poorly-disguised "why don't people just play 4e" posts. No one is making these posts, you need to seriously work on your reading comprehension.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:58
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friendlyfire posted:I think that having the players start on their back foot in some way can make for an interesting encounter in any edition of d&d. It certainly worked well for me in 4e! That guy started out dead. Please explain where the fun is in that.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:59
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friendlyfire posted:I think that having the players start on their back foot in some way can make for an interesting encounter in any edition of d&d. It certainly worked well for me in 4e! I don't remember any mob having abilities that could only be used on the first turn of combat. Very few mobs even had unrechargeable abilities that were available on the first turn of combat.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:00
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friendlyfire posted:Funny, you don't seem sick of refuting it. And you don't care if it already has been. Oh well.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:03
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30.5 Days posted:People keep saying this, but the conversation is pretty varied when 5e players are willing to talk candidly about the system's problems and also its good parts. The problem is that 5e players for some reason feel the need to defend their e-honor about poo poo that is unmistakably bad, and then we get 5-10 page arguments about whether the intellect devourere is ACTUALLY that deadly like every three days, and then you come in at the end and ask the guy who got one-shot by the centaur "okay but what was your marching order" as thought that matters and yeah you're going to get ridiculed, that's ridiculous. Equally ridiculous "I prefer badly designed systems because they let me pretend to be a game designer and try to fix it whereas if the system is well-designed it's harder to not mess them up when you change something" and "okay but if the encounters aren't totally randomized difficulty, isn't that just boring?" poo poo is also going to get made fun of because that's insane. When people just come in here and talk about their games or whatever things go pretty smoothly. I don't know if you have grog goggles on (groggles?) but this is not a great space for actually liking 5e, and it never has been. It is profoundly negative almost all of the time. There are some brief periods of not-hate but it is not prevalent. Please don't pretend otherwise. Also, you are completely mischaracterizing me: I prefer well designed systems but am happy hammering down any nails that stick out. I can be like that without preferring badly designed systems. Nor have I espoused totally randomized difficulty, I just think that a purely mathematical system is always going to fall short in a game system that has this much flexibility.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:03
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Which playtest packet did you like the most?
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Oct 14, 2014 23:03
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Offhand, I can't think of any 5e critters with first turn only abilities.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:03
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friendlyfire posted:We are all goons. I can no more stop posting than they. Nobody was ever going to change their mind about elf games, especially since this is strangely the most enthusiastic 4e-grog community on the internet. Still, it would be nice if the 5e thread could actually be about 5e instead of endless poorly-disguised "why don't people just play 4e" posts. Really by my count the most common response is "why don't you play 3.X/PF/2e instead" since those are waaaaaaay closer to 5th than 4th is.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:04
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friendlyfire posted:I don't know if you have grog goggles on (groggles?) but this is not a great space for actually liking 5e, and it never has been. It is profoundly negative almost all of the time. There are some brief periods of not-hate but it is not prevalent. Please don't pretend otherwise. It's only not-prevelant because people cannot stop insisting that the ID is fine. Seriously, go back a few pages and see where this conversation started. Or just look at why it's continuing! quote:Also, you are completely mischaracterizing me: I prefer well designed systems but am happy hammering down any nails that stick out. I can be like that without preferring badly designed systems. Nor have I espoused totally randomized difficulty, I just think that a purely mathematical system is always going to fall short in a game system that has this much flexibility. Don't you play pathfinder?
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Oct 14, 2014 23:04
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quote:It's only not-prevelant because people cannot stop insisting that the ID is fine. Seriously, go back a few pages and see where this conversation started. Or just look at why it's continuing!
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Oct 14, 2014 23:06
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friendlyfire posted:I just think that a purely mathematical system is always going to fall short in a game system that has this much flexibility. What is a purely mathematical system and how is it different from uhhhh I guess an impurely mathematically system? I dunno whatever you'd call whatever game you're arguing in favor of.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:07
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Really Pants posted:That guy started out dead. Please explain where the fun is in that.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:08
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Really Pants posted:That guy started out dead. Please explain where the fun is in that. That isn't, especially. A player being at 0 hp could be, though, as a tactical challenge. That's what I meant. One could very easily obviate this issue by just not using the Instant Death rule, something I espouse in all editions of D&D.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:08
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People who have no intention of playing the game like to use the intellect devourer as something that is unfairly derided as a bullshit save or die and troll 5e players into thinking it is ok to have to write half of the book.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:08
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friendlyfire posted:I'm actually glad that 5e isn't some delicate web of perfectly tensioned steel webbing, where removing a single one will cause it to snarl impossibly. I like that there is room for nudging aspects of the rules one way or another. It's much easier to do this on top of a robust system. Huge chunks of Fate Core describe ways you can safely extend and bend the system around to get the kind of game you want while still making sure you don't break it. There's a section in Dungeon World about how to safely add new mechanics, with notes on how to do it well. Less dramatically, 13th Age has little sidebars about tweaks to the core rules you can make, and how that will affect the system in practice. 5e may have some of this in the DMG, but even if it does, it's actively hostile to this kind of hacking because it's so poorly thought out. A robust core makes modification it easier, not harder. friendlyfire posted:A boring class is more difficult, which is what the fighter is. I think that the fighter is probably designed to be kind of boring, both as a sop to grognards and to give new players an easy way to participate. That's not necessary for my games, but it might be a good idea for the hobby. Separately, I'm not sure "play this boring guy who hits stuff, while this guy over here bends reality to his will" is the best way to get new people into the hobby.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Offhand, I can't think of any 5e critters with first turn only abilities. You can't think of the two I just named, centaur and doppleganger? I mean I guess the centaur could take a buttload of AOO's or the players could not group up and the DM could go for the TPK, and back off after every charge, then start the next turn by full-moving away and then charging back into the players. But this would either result in instant death if the players are grouped or TPK if they're not. At least that's a tactical choice. The doppleganger, though? It pops out of stealth/disguise, bounces 24 damage, and then what? How's he get that bonus 10 ever again for the rest of the fight?
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Oct 14, 2014 23:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:why does the ID keep coming up? It's fine as written you just gotta change the CR from 2 to something like "X: Where X is the number of characters in the party with Int <12 times party level."
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Oct 14, 2014 23:11
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30.5 Days posted:Don't you play pathfinder? No. Why would I want to play a game system where the designers intentionally avoided fixing even the most obvious problems, as a deliberate part of their sales strategy to calve off a big chunk of 3e grogs? I loving hate pathfinder. That's why I'm so interested in 5e: I am hoping that it will cause game groups to move away from pathfinder in general. I think I am setting myself up for disappointment, though.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:11
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friendlyfire posted:Why would I want to play a game system where the designers intentionally avoided fixing even the most obvious problems, as a deliberate part of their sales strategy to calve off a big chunk of 3e grogs? I loving hate pathfinder. That's why I'm so interested in 5e Hey guess what
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Oct 14, 2014 23:12
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:why does the ID keep coming up? Because people keep saying things like this: TheDeadlyShoe posted:Where do you get that 'it just murders all the players'? The IDs are chumps
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Oct 14, 2014 23:13
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Misandu posted:What is a purely mathematical system and how is it different from uhhhh I guess an impurely mathematically system? I dunno whatever you'd call whatever game you're arguing in favor of. I mean that assuming a single numerical value to a monster's difficulty without qualification will never be a perfect way of assessing or portraying how dangerous it is. 4e comes closer than 5e to this impossible goal, however, because of how predictable and holistic the mathematical underpinnings of that system are. Really Pants posted:Hey guess what Yes, yes, very funny, but a lot of the complaints about 5e's "problems" are preferences, not problems. As an exampple, I don't like caster supremacy, but clearly a lot of people do, at least in practice. But would you seriously espouse Pathfinder over 5e? Because I think it is head and loving shoulders over that steaming pile of poo poo. friendlyfire fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:15
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:why does the ID keep coming up? I think the complaints about the horrible terror that is the Intellect Devourer are a subtle warning from those whose brains they've already consumed that we might be next. EDIT: and before Pants can rejoinder: OH YEAH WELL YOUD NEED A BRAIN FOR THAT TO HAPPEN polisurgist fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:17
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The centaur charge bonus isn't a first turn ability, i mean it has a longbow even. The way 5e rules play the centaur could charge 30 feet, hit the player of its choice, then move 20 feet away behind some cover. It would trigger a reaction attack if it did not down its target but thats okay. In any case, it definitely has the move speed to pull off mobile combat. Even if it has to take another reaction hit it might prefer to conduct as many charge attacks as it can pull off, assuming it is suicide centaur to begin with. I'll grant the doppelganger. Generally though the 5e critters don't have that sort of thing. quote:Where do you get that 'it just murders all the players'? The IDs are chumps and oh, the only reason that came up is because people brought up the ID for an example combat. surprising, no? TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:17
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:IDs are pretty easy to kill for a level 13 party! Are you going to argue otherwise? Oh my god, we're going to argue about it again. How can people claim that it's the 4th ed people who are driving this argument?
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Oct 14, 2014 23:19
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:and oh, the only reason that came up is because people brought up the ID for an example combat. surprising, no? Because someone claimed that people couldn't make an unbalanced 13th level combat!!
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Oct 14, 2014 23:20
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So we made an example combat, that contained 3 IDs, because people cannot stop bringing up IDs, because your brains have been devoured. or 18 IDs depending on how you look at it! TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:22
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The DMG went to the printers today. Someone finally turned in their homework.
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