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Captain Oblivious posted:Important to remember that pig lasers only work on the early to mid stages of tempering. Once you're so far gone that you don't have your original body anymore, you're un-piglaserable. yeah like you can't de-temper those pirates who got turned into pirates of the caribbean 2 dudes so you can't de-temper a voidsent
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Nov 2, 2021 19:18
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Lord_Magmar posted:By that same token, a lot of Voidsent are pretty feral too, the ones who show intelligence and such tend to be implied to be old and powerful (Diablo, Scathatch, The Cloud of Darkness who literally was able to make deals with the Emperor of Allag). Actually that last detail might be the real kibosh on the Cloud being an Ascian depending on if the Ascians could continue to rejoin to the Source if it was over-run by the World of Darkness. It's Igeyohrm who canonically was responsible for the World of Darkness (that and, it's implied, the fact that the people of the Thirteenth were less prone to unite to save their world and instead individually tried to go it alone with Big drat Heroism which just wasn't enough), but given that Igeyorhm wasn't Unsundered it's entirely possible that the Cloud is also Igeyohrm. The voidsent we see who are sapient are usually more powerful, although the feral voidsent like bombs and lesser ahrimans are kind of weird anyways given they're also clearly an invasive species on the Source with an independent breeding population.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:21
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Lord_Magmar posted:By that same token, a lot of Voidsent are pretty feral too, the ones who show intelligence and such tend to be implied to be old and powerful (Diablo, Scathatch, The Cloud of Darkness who literally was able to make deals with the Emperor of Allag). Actually that last detail might be the real kibosh on the Cloud being an Ascian depending on if the Ascians could continue to rejoin to the Source if it was over-run by the World of Darkness. nah there's plenty of low - mid tier voidsent talking poo poo and saying stuff like 'I shall devour your soul, mortal!!', they might be dicks but they are sapient
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Nov 2, 2021 19:22
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multijoe posted:nah there's plenty of low - mid tier voidsent talking poo poo and saying stuff like 'I shall devour your soul, mortal!!', they might be dicks but they are sapient Thus back to my whole "voidsent are chuuni", 'cause most of 'em are clearly trying too hard.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:23
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Jetrauben posted:It's Igeyohrm who canonically was responsible for the World of Darkness (that and, it's implied, the fact that the people of the Thirteenth were less prone to unite to save their world and instead individually tried to go it alone with Big drat Heroism which just wasn't enough), but given that Igeyorhm wasn't Unsundered it's entirely possible that the Cloud is also Igeyohrm. That’s what I figure. Mitron outright says they’ll just find another sundered share of Mitron instead of freeing him from Eden. Cloud of Darkness being a shard of Igeyorhm would even add to Lahabrea’s whole motivation to constantly be actively working towards the rejoinings compared to Emet and Elidibus taking breaks. Seeing as he’d have permanently lost a part of what is implied to have been a romantic partner. Maybe Darkness just makes you super dramatic in general, look at how Gaia is for example. Or the Ascians in general really are super hammy when they want to be.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:28
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Can you un-temper an Ascian if you throw enough aether at the pig?
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Nov 2, 2021 19:30
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Presumably, but the only three tempered Ascians are dead. And it would probably be ingenuous to call Elidibus tempered.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:31
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Lord_Magmar posted:That’s what I figure. Mitron outright says they’ll just find another sundered share of Mitron instead of freeing him from Eden. Cloud of Darkness being a shard of Igeyorhm would even add to Lahabrea’s whole motivation to constantly be actively working towards the rejoinings compared to Emet and Elidibus taking breaks. Seeing as he’d have permanently lost a part of what is implied to have been a romantic partner. If the metaphysics of light and dark are that light is stillness and dark is chaotic abundance it makes sense that dark-tempered creatures would have larger than life personalities ruled by their passions anyway to hell with fixing the thirteenth, every high fantasy setting needs a hosed up demon dimension and the voidsent are always good to have around as some uncomplicated baddies, if we went around permanently fixing every single problem we'd drain all the fun right out the setting
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Nov 2, 2021 19:37
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FuturePastNow posted:Can you un-temper an Ascian if you throw enough aether at the pig? One of the more common fanfic plots on Ao3 involves untempering Emet-Selch instead of killing him via the light axe. Basically rebalancing him violently with the light to counteract Zodiark’s darkness. Not that this is like any sort of proof, but if you can un-temper Tiamat you can probably un-temper Lahabrea and Emet-Selch. Given the way she acts about her tempering seems very similar to Emet-Selch’s comments about it.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:38
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multijoe posted:If the metaphysics of light and dark are that light is stillness and dark is chaotic abundance it makes sense that dark-tempered creatures would have larger than life personalities ruled by their passions could have an extremely hosed up demon dimension beyond the stars
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Nov 2, 2021 19:38
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I don't think they are really tempered, they have the full power echo thing.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:39
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So technically, you could awaken every shard of an ascian and have a council of the same dude like how Organization XIII had a council of Xehenorts, right?
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Nov 2, 2021 19:40
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Mordiceius posted:So technically, you could awaken every shard of an ascian and have a council of the same dude like how Organization XIII had a council of Xehenorts, right? I like where you're going with this
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Nov 2, 2021 19:40
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Lord_Magmar posted:One of the more common fanfic plots on Ao3 involves untempering Emet-Selch instead of killing him via the light axe. Basically rebalancing him violently with the light to counteract Zodiark’s darkness. You probably just can't smash a bunch of light into someone to untemper them. Even with astral tempering, like Tiamat, she's unbalanced toward umbral. That's one of the key facets of tempering. brand engager posted:I don't think they are really tempered, they have the full power echo thing. The echo never did provide full immunity to tempering, just the ability to resist or even influence your own will on something.
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Nov 2, 2021 19:41
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Countblanc posted:Probably too meta to be a satisfying answer, but I assume the reason some people are past the point of pig is that it makes tempering still have a risk or be a danger. It's this. Anything else is reverse engineering a reason to justify retaining an element of risk.
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Nov 2, 2021 20:37
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Vitamean posted:could have an extremely hosed up demon dimension beyond the stars Plus it's hardly like fixing the Thirteenth wipes out the voidsent on it, or even necessarily that the Thirteenth fixed - which naturally has a strong alignment towards Darkness just as the First is natively strongly aligned towards Light - means it'll stop producing cool edgelords. Some of them will just be on our side. Heck it's not implausible there already are voidsent who are comparatively cool and they're just kind of chilling on their own plane. (Scathach was a threat, but she didn't come off as especially conquer-the-world; honestly, I can't really blame her or the other voidsent enslaved by Mhach for saying "gently caress this using us as batteries thing" and killing their captors, a thing that Cait Sith never quite answers for.) Now that I think about it, Unulkhai is a kid and doesn't seem to have much physical presence, and could presumably be justified the same way the Scions on the First are as an aetheric entity, but is Cylva walking around in some woman's corpse? (Is she honestly borderline a succubus in all but physical form? What makes voidsent what they are, species wise?) Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Nov 2, 2021 |
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Nov 2, 2021 20:40
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Presumably, but the only three tempered Ascians are dead. And it would probably be ingenuous to call Elidibus tempered. Are you sure only those three were tempered? Because the very last scene of 2.0 is a whole room full of them going on about their one true god Zodiark
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Nov 2, 2021 20:57
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You know, in a world that most people turned into an evil eye monster or a literal devil, Cloud of Darkness was pretty lucky to just become a big lady
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Nov 2, 2021 20:58
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FuturePastNow posted:Are you sure only those three were tempered? Because the very last scene of 2.0 is a whole room full of them going on about their one true god Zodiark They were the only three tempered that we met. By the time we met Fandaniel, Igehorym or Mitron, or hell, even Gaia, their new lives were not tempered. That said, the convocation members, with some of their old memories restored, are still in the Z fan club. Presumably all the summoners were tempered, but death is a cure. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Nov 2, 2021 |
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Nov 2, 2021 20:59
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Right, but if you're one of the unsundered assholes in charge, the first thing you're going to do with a new hire is induct them into the Zodiark fan club.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:08
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The unsundered can't temper them, and Zodiark is unavailable at the moment. It's just memories and propaganda.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:10
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This is probably just a coincidence, but I noticed that more powerful a primal/eikon is, the less blatant and obvious their tempered are regarding their loyalties. With the beast tribe primals, the tempered might was well be wearing sports jerseys. In comparison, Midas and Nael were able to keep the Empire from figuring out their condition (which wasn't that hard, tbf). And finally you have Emet Selch, who honestly doesn't need a slavish devotion to Crystal Dad to rationalize his actions.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:20
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I mean even the very first primal you encounter has a tempered person entirely capable of infiltrating their organization without being discovered.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:23
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I thought they were tempered by good ol' fashion coin
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Nov 2, 2021 21:26
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Blockhouse posted:yeah like you can't de-temper those pirates who got turned into pirates of the caribbean 2 dudes so you can't de-temper a voidsent We haven't shot them with enough pig lasers yet. More pigs, more lasers.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:31
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Hellioning posted:I mean even the very first primal you encounter has a tempered person entirely capable of infiltrating their organization without being discovered. Vitamean posted:I thought they were tempered by good ol' fashion coin Yeah we see him tied up at the Ifrit summoning experiencing face-eating coerl shock. Or are you talking about a different person?
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Nov 2, 2021 21:45
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Zomborgon posted:Gonna bring so many pigs to the Void, fix the place right up Cure the Void with swine flew.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:45
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FuturePastNow posted:We're going to find and make friends with the one voidsent that just has a strong compulsion to help other voidsent with their problems Turns out it's Frey and DRK was a secret Reaper.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:48
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The unsundered can't temper them, and Zodiark is unavailable at the moment. I agree. The Echo/Ancient Creationn Magic doesn't provide any special protection against being tempered by an unsundered primal, but the sundered primals probably aren't strong enough to force your aether into alignment with their aether. Unsundered Zodiark would definitely be able to do it. but it's actually a question whether a fully powered Bahamut or Shinryu could temper the WoL. We fought Bahamut while he was regenerating and Shinryu never tried to temper us because Zenos would not have been having that.
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Nov 2, 2021 21:49
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The unsundered can't temper them, and Zodiark is unavailable at the moment. Elidibus was some sort of weird primal, though. Wouldn't that be part of his job?
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Nov 2, 2021 21:50
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He's kind of a weird case because he's not entirely a primal. He's still Elidibus, who sacrificed himself to be the heart of a primal, and then ejected himself from said primal. He might be like the lunar primals - not able to temper others, be it that they're already tempered, or because of some other mechanism we haven't explored. Maybe it's more like Ysale, but a bit more extreme. Shiva could presumably temper others, but Ysale couldn't. Ysale didn't kill herself to summon Shiva, but there might be something there. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 2, 2021 |
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Nov 2, 2021 21:53
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Maybe. I don't know how it would work, but we definitely see other Ascians talking about their one true god, and that's usually the game's tell that someone is tempered. I can believe there are individuals like Fandaniel it didn't work on, but someone who is doing it for money or just faking it would be a potential liability.
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Nov 2, 2021 22:26
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FuturePastNow posted:Maybe. I don't know how it would work, but we definitely see other Ascians talking about their one true god, and that's usually the game's tell that someone is tempered. I can believe there are individuals like Fandaniel it didn't work on, but someone who is doing it for money or just faking it would be a potential liability. The memories in the soul crystals are from tempered people. So they are going to be a huge pro-Zodiark influence, even if the person it is applied to is technically untempered. Fandaniel's didn't work because his crystal, or at least the memories in his crystal, were corrupted.
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Nov 2, 2021 22:31
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If Elidibus could temper people, he's had plenty of opportunity to temper Urianger and other scions. Other beast tribes recognize the primal as what it is, and still worship their god anyways. Even in game faith doesn't equal tempering.
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Nov 2, 2021 22:39
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Shinryu does try to temper the WoL and Zenos, though, they just both no-sell it because honestly a stupid ragemurderdragon isn't exactly going to be very adept at mental war.
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Nov 3, 2021 00:12
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No he doesn't. He's completely locked down by that Omega stasis thing. And it's not a battle of mental fortitude. Ifrit, Titan and Leviathan are all kings of tempering. To say nothing of rage-elemental Bahamut. e: I guess he does try right before Zenos resonants him. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 00:16
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A useful thing to remember when thinking about tempering is that the whole story about it is one of religious extremism, not religion at all. Try to fit any question you have into that framework and you usually have your answer.
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Nov 3, 2021 00:24
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https://twitter.com/XArcticEchoV/status/1455688679595421698 It's a me, Zenos
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Nov 3, 2021 03:46
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sweet geek swag posted:The memories in the soul crystals are from tempered people. So they are going to be a huge pro-Zodiark influence, even if the person it is applied to is technically untempered. Fandaniel's didn't work because his crystal, or at least the memories in his crystal, were corrupted. also you have stuff like Mitron immediately ditching the Zodiark thing all together when Eden activates and just wanting to absorb his ex into himself and live there forever
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Nov 3, 2021 04:05
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Listening to some of the music ripped from the Media Tour. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpETgCy5hcQ Gosh this is such a good remix and I hope this means we'll get to meet three of Krile's friends.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:17
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