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Tavore keeping Blistig alive as a witness to Aren while simultaneously having him part of a deliberately unwitnessed army is the part that always bugged me about Blistig and Tavore. If he lives to spread the word of the Chain of Dogs and Aren then he'll tell the Nah'ruk/Crystal Desert/Crippled God tale as well. (I suppose you can say that he's too oblivious to be an effective witness but c'mon.)
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Oct 4, 2018 17:37
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Man, remember when we all liked Blistig in, like, Book 2?
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Oct 5, 2018 00:31
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Yup, it's why his "gently caress'em" attitude toward the Snake made me mad as heck. Related, the Snake is one of those things that's honestly affected me more and more as time has passed. It just comes together so, so well and culminates in so many little moments that just wreck me. Fiddler giving water to the dead baby and Badalle's reaction to that. Fiddler backtracking their path and seeing the remains left behind. "You cannot wage war against indifferance." The soldiers burying the ones that made it, only to still pass away, marking the sites with their own little charms. Hanavat allowing Rutt to hold her newborn. gently caress I love this series. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 5, 2018 |
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Oct 5, 2018 02:42
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There are some really powerful moments. Hanavat and Rutt teared me up thinking about, another favourite is when Tavore asks if the statute of her will be beautiful, really ties in to how Unwomanly face of war tells us of women/girl soldiers struggling to maintain their gender identity as lose their hair, menstruation &c. When Karsa holds the dying leper, which iirc was written by Erikson to process his father dying. When Mother Dark understands Anomanders sacrifice, or when the remaining Andii rally to aid in the final battle of Kharkanas. Clack Holy poo poo this is some good fiction
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Oct 5, 2018 09:31
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Man with Hat posted:I read it as he does literally nothing but complain and get drunk and tell his soldiers they're all gonna die for nothing while the other fists pick up the slack for like three books. Except when he has marines killed for water he tried to steal for himself (which is already gone) in the desert and stabs Pores. Oh yeah, by that point he's irredeemable, but even by Bonehunters/Reapers Gale he's getting slagged off, and I never quite got what distinguished him from other assholes like Kindly. zokie posted:There are some really powerful moments. Hanavat and Rutt teared me up thinking about, another favourite is when Tavore asks if the statute of her will be beautiful, really ties in to how Unwomanly face of war tells us of women/girl soldiers struggling to maintain their gender identity as lose their hair, menstruation &c. Even better the dying leper is Munug, the prick who made the Crippled God's corrupted deck of dragons back in MoI Edit: Oh, and to combine both strands of this - Faradan Sort and Beak. I love how Faradan starts off seeming like a vindictive hardass (although her punishments are no worse than anything Whiskyjack dished out) and then we slowly see her sympathetic caring side. Beak could have so easily been an awful idiot-savant/Forest Gump parody, but the way he slowly comes out of his shell and becomes more confident just be being around people who treat him like an actual equal is absolutely heartbreaking. Strom Cuzewon fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Oct 5, 2018 |
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Oct 5, 2018 11:56
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kingturnip posted:I think Tavore says it's because he's one of the only people to have actual first-hand knowledge of the Chain of Dogs (albeit from the walls of Aren). If he dies, who's there to remember it?, given that it's not clear whether Tavore knows that Duiker is alive. Huh. Yeah, she does say that but to me it never explained why he got to stay a fist. However, what you say is true, he would've been mega murdered if he wasn't a fist (there's actually a bunch of marines that stop themselves just because he is a fist and it would be mutinous against Tavore to stab her fist). So that explains it, thanks! Man with Hat fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Oct 5, 2018 |
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Oct 5, 2018 12:48
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I just finished my reread of Deadhouse Gates after finishing the main series years ago, and this time I'm left with two pressing questions about Pormqual/Aren. Why was Pormqual still in charge a year after Laseen orchestrated a massive purge of the nobility? Given how ineffectual and downright stupid other members of the nobility are portrayed, it seems obvious that he's one of them as well. Yet Laseen didn't depose him, and for that matter lets all the other nobility in Seven Cities retain their power. More importantly, after Gardens of the Moon showed how Malazan soldiers had a lax attitude towards officers being assassinated, why didn't Pormqual get assassinated - if not at the beginning of the rebellion then when the Chain of Dogs reached Aren? That in particular doesn't fit with any of what had been established about Malazan soldiers over the last book. Erikson didn't even come up with some justification when Kalam was interrogating Laseen at the end. It feels like a contrived way to lead to Coltaine/Duiker's deaths.
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Oct 5, 2018 21:57
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Lasseen didn't do her purge to eliminate dead weight or make the empire stronger, it was to eliminate anyone who didn't support her regency
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Oct 5, 2018 22:09
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It's also quite hinted at that Laseen just isn't all that good at this whole "running an empire" thing, long before The Bonehunters makes it painfully obvious.
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Oct 5, 2018 22:43
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How were Dancer's Lament and Deadhouse Landing?
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Oct 6, 2018 03:23
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Surprisingly not terrible
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Oct 6, 2018 03:40
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Oh Snapple! posted:How were Dancer's Lament and Deadhouse Landing? Good books. ICE has a great voice for Dancer and Kelenved.
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Oct 6, 2018 03:51
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pile of brown posted:Lasseen didn't do her purge to eliminate dead weight or make the empire stronger, it was to eliminate anyone who didn't support her regency IIRC her primary reason was to gain support from the populace. She pinned the recent military disasters on nobleborn officers and was able to seize their assets. Laseen just took advantage of the situation and was also able to quietly eliminate her critics. It's also worth noting that Tavore was partly responsible for the purge we see in DG. In order to prove her loyalty to Laseen, she had to pubicly sever her ties to her family and her nobleborn class. Oh and in House of Chains we learn that the Talons (or a small remnant of them) supported among the nobility and that's how they were able to worm themselves back into positions of power so quickly after the purge.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:49
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Mr Hootington posted:Good books. ICE has a great voice for Dancer and Kelenved. I found Kellanved a little too manic pixie dream wizard, but Dancer's constant frustration is great, and all the stuff with Silk and the other wizards is probably ICE's more successful juggling of multiple characters.
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Oct 6, 2018 18:27
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dwarf74 posted:Man, remember when we all liked Blistig in, like, Book 2?
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Oct 6, 2018 20:13
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I found Kellanved a little too manic pixie dream wizard, but Dancer's constant frustration is great, and all the stuff with Silk and the other wizards is probably ICE's more successful juggling of multiple characters. I thought it jives with how erikson wrote kellanved. He is an eccentric guy who is kinda all over the place.
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Oct 6, 2018 21:26
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Oh Snapple! posted:How were Dancer's Lament and Deadhouse Landing? I like the Malazan Empire books as fun side-stories where you get to see some of the places the marines never got to, but the books also suffered a lot from the influences of the main series. ICE's writing takes huge cues from Erikson's style and while ICE got better at writing in the "Malazan" style as he went, a lot of his books' problems stem from him imitating Erikson without enough of the craft that went into it. For example ICE had a lot of scenes with "mysterious characters" whose identity would be blatantly ambiguous, missing that Erikson almost always identified his characters when they showed up, even if their full significance might not be revealed until later, or kept their identities ambiguous because it was part of the plot (the Crusts). ICE often just kept characters unidentified and then you were supposed to go "oh that's Topper." On top of that the Erikson books set such a high bar of expectations that I don't think ICE was ever going to meet. Assail for all its problems was all the more disappointing because all us fans had a badass mental image of what the book would be from Memories of Ice, in the same way we've all got a dream idea of what the Karsa trilogy will be like. The prequels feel a lot more like ICE isn't trying as hard to keep pace with Erikson or prove he can fit in with the main series. His focus on Dancer and Wu means he gets to characterize them more and build the main cast around them, there aren't as many side-stories that are completely disconnected from the rest of the plot. The stakes of the story are a lot lower since we all know what eventually happens anyway, so the plotting is relaxed and takes its time rather than rushing to a conclusion. ICE also has more room to move around the characters without the constraints of Erikson's parallel series. I was worried he'd ruin some of the mystery behind Kellanved/Dancer and the early Malazan Empire but so far I think he's been very true to the characters while still adding a lot of worthwhile moments to their backstories.
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Oct 7, 2018 02:27
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Finishing up Toll the Hounds now, and I think it's the weakest book by far so far. Some of the story lines are good, but others were just not very interesting. Are the last few books better?
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Oct 8, 2018 15:16
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Dust of Dreams is brutal and confusing but cranks to 11. Crippled God is really good. Honestly I feel like Reaper's Gale is the peak but see the ride through.
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Oct 8, 2018 22:19
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Is the Yedan Derryg stuff in Dust of Dreams? That's a real underrated part of the saga. Edit: Nm it's in the Crippled God. Tokelau All Star fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Oct 8, 2018 |
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Oct 8, 2018 22:55
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Tokelau All Star posted:Is the Yedan Derryg stuff in Dust of Dreams? That's a real underrated part of the saga. And in Fall of Light. I really like the flash forwards and the birth of the Shore.
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Oct 9, 2018 01:22
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Sjonkel posted:Finishing up Toll the Hounds now, and I think it's the weakest book by far so far. Some of the story lines are good, but others were just not very interesting. Are the last few books better? Bear in mind that Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God are basically one book split in two so that you don't sprain your wrist from the act of reading it. Taken as a single book, yes, it is very good. The finale of Toll The Hounds is clearly important for what comes afterwards. That said, I barely skimmed the Harllo sections on my re-read - I think the themes of 'the corruption of the young' work better in House of Chains (with Bidithal's gang of female genital mutilation girls) - and Stonny's role is so one-note it could be an entirely new character once Gruntle leaves. Likewise, Crokus' role - once he's delivered Scillara and Barathol - is fairly pointless, since we've seen enough of him since GOTM to know that he's outgrown Darujhistan without needing to see him finding it out for himself. I like the Nom-Nom bits - those were fun. And - sad though it was - the storyline of K'rul's Bar was good. And, of course, the finale is superb - I think it has The Crippled God beat in terms of  but TCG's finale is something like 250 pages long, so it's more epic.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:15
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kingturnip posted:Bear in mind that Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God are basically one book split in two so that you don't sprain your wrist from the act of reading it. Taken as a single book, yes, it is very good. On my reread most of Toll the Hounds was just me anxiously waiting for what I knew was to come in the end because it has some of the best moments. Harllo finally getting his mom after all that poo poo The spiteful T'lan Imass going for revenge against Raest without so much as managing to be slightly bothersome Cutter "duelling" one of the people I hated the most in all the books The guild of assassins loosing pretty much all of their power because they're hired to kill some tavern keepers Lady Envy or Lady Spite (I can't remember which) being genuinely afraid of a bard The first time we see Hood, and what happens when the lord of death hangs out around mortals It also had my biggest "HOLY poo poo" moment when I read it the first time. Rake unceremoniously just lobbing the head off of Death
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Oct 10, 2018 10:04
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I'm reading Toll the Hounds at the moment (on my third attempt, both other times I just burnt out on the series at this point, this time I started with it) so must resist scrolling over those spoilers. I'm currently recovering from an illness and stuggle to concentrate for any length of time so I've been reading in bite size chunks, as a result I'm digging the vignette style of a lot of it, especially the Darujhistan stuff. I'm even enjoying the continuing adventures of Clip and co. Neither of these were aspects of the bigger story I was particularly keen to get back to but I'm finding slow and steady and giving myself time to actually absorb it all is making it a log more engaging, On the downside it's going to take me several months to plow through it at this rate. I'm not looking forward to the heavily telegraphed child endangerment that I suspect is on the way. I really struggle to with that 
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Oct 10, 2018 10:15
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It's the best book in the series
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Oct 10, 2018 10:44
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:It's the best book in the series Apparently a minority opinion, but look forward to finding out if it holds for me. From what I've read between the lines/spoilers it's a slow boil leading to one hell of a convergeance. Something I've enjoyed in other books, including those that some don't rate as highly as the more spectacular volumes in the series. Of course the more I read of TtH, especially with so many old characters we haven't seen in a few books gradually showing up, the more I just want to go back to the beginning and start all over again... but I'm comitted to finishing the series now. Will probably reread the whole thing straight after though.
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Oct 10, 2018 11:35
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10% left in Crippled God. The assault on the Spire is one hell of an unforgettable chapter.
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Oct 10, 2018 14:42
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Ben Nerevarine posted:10% left in Crippled God. The assault on the Spire is one hell of an unforgettable chapter. Gesler going down while punching an Assail so hard her shoulder breaks is such a Gesler thing to do. Stormy's death is just terrible to read (I mean that in a good way)
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Oct 10, 2018 14:51
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Gravy Jones posted:Apparently a minority opinion, but look forward to finding out if it holds for me. From what I've read between the lines/spoilers it's a slow boil leading to one hell of a convergeance. Something I've enjoyed in other books, including those that some don't rate as highly as the more spectacular volumes in the series. Of course the more I read of TtH, especially with so many old characters we haven't seen in a few books gradually showing up, the more I just want to go back to the beginning and start all over again... but I'm comitted to finishing the series now. Will probably reread the whole thing straight after though. I'm still not a fan of this book; the Darujhistan stories are the weakest part of the series in my opinion. But the Andii stuff works perfectly once you're aware of the story behind the myth.
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Oct 10, 2018 15:24
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The Crippled God is the convergence of all convergences.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:34
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Jag'hut, T'lan Imass, K'Chain Che'Malle, Forkrul Assail, oh my!
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Oct 10, 2018 19:37
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anilEhilated posted:Thing about TtH is that it becomes a lot better once you've read Forge of Darkness. I actually use the Daru plot to try and explain Erikson's unusual plotting style. Namely, the bit where a man is having an affair with a noblewoman. She asks him to murder her husband so they can be together. He refuses, and ends the relationship. Later, he murders her husband for unrelated reasons It's pretty fantastic, and I love how Malazan is a massive pileup of a billion different plots smashing into each other, and it gives us wonderful moments like TtH in which nobody has any idea what's going on. But all the misdirection can get exhausting
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Oct 10, 2018 20:55
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Just over halfway through Stonewielder, and I'm genuinely impressed by how much better than RotCG it is - I actually know/care about all these characters! I can tell who is on what side and why they're fighting! The battle on the bridge is frantic and compelling! While he's definitely got better at balancing all the different viewpoints, I think a lot of the success comes from having pretty much half the number of characters as RotCG, and without the multi-sided civil war within a civil war within an invasion. Also Suth seeing Kyle as some badass Guardsman when his PoV is still as lost as confused as ever is hilarious.
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Oct 12, 2018 13:06
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Just over halfway through Stonewielder, and I'm genuinely impressed by how much better than RotCG it is - I actually know/care about all these characters! I can tell who is on what side and why they're fighting! The battle on the bridge is frantic and compelling! If you haven't read all the ICE books do not read this spoiler about Kyle it is hilarious that he becomes a near ascendent by doing nothing.
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Oct 13, 2018 00:04
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Finished The Crippled God. It will take me weeks to digest all that I just read. I laughed, I cried, and I have no idea what to read now.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:06
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Ben Nerevarine posted:I have no idea what to read now. Gardens of the Moon, obviously.
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Oct 13, 2018 19:11
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I too am just over halfway through Stonewielder and enjoying it. It's definitely better than RotCG, which is obviously better than NoK. I quite like how the change of viewpoint gives us different views of viewpoint characters from earlier in the book, most notably Greymane and Kyle. It definitely feels more focused than RotCG and I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing how the story strands play out (and inevitably converge). After that it's Orb, Sceptre, Throne and then on with the final two books in the main series. I am loving M:BotF a great deal, but for various reasons it's taking me years to read, which means I'm often forgetting details from earlier, although I do occasionally read the excellent re-read articles on Tor to combat this. I really want to re-read them afterwards, as it's clear that this would be a rewarding experience, but Christ, I don't know if there's enough time left in my life given the backlog of other books I have, fantasy and non. I really want to give the Gormenghast trilogy a go; I have the recent Beren and Luthien release sitting there; got the Dark Tower series last Christmas; my wife recently read Kingkiller Chronicles and won't shut up about it and I admit it does sound good; then there are the P.G. Wodehouse books I recently got, various historical novels, plus Dune and Rendezvous with Rama plus various others I can't recall. But by god Malazan is one of the best fantasy series I've read and I think by hook or by crook I must give it another read through before I pop my clogs. It has filled the ASoiaF-shaped hole in my life (still haven't read Dance with Dragons) and then some.
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Oct 18, 2018 12:02
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:I too am just over halfway through Stonewielder and enjoying it. It's definitely better than RotCG, which is obviously better than NoK. I quite like how the change of viewpoint gives us different views of viewpoint characters from earlier in the book, most notably Greymane and Kyle. It definitely feels more focused than RotCG and I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing how the story strands play out (and inevitably converge). I'm really enjoying the re-read, I'm not stressing out over trying to figure out all the little details and can just enjoy the story and the characters for what they are. Kingkiller is pretentious garbage (read Earthsea instead) and Rama starts out as really dry engineering sci-fi, turns into weird sex politics, and then ends in absolute nonsense (read Dune instead - it has much better weird sex and nonsense)
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Oct 18, 2018 12:38
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm really enjoying the re-read, I'm not stressing out over trying to figure out all the little details and can just enjoy the story and the characters for what they are. Yeah, one issue I currently have is constantly straining my memory to place certain characters/references to things from several books ago. I love the detail and lack of spoon-feeding, but it does also cause a tiny amount of stress too when I feel I'm not getting the full benefit due to not remembering something too well (albeit it's partly my fault for taking so long to get through the series). I'm looking forward to coming at them from the other way around when do re-read them, having those "aha" moments, with lines and events making more sense as part of the bigger picture with the benefit of hindsight. Read the Earthsea quartet years ago and really enjoyed them. I do like the sound of Kingkiller though, but am doubting it's as good as my wife reckons. Interesting to hear your highly negative view, as they seem generally quite well-regarded, although I can't say I've exactly read tons of reviews now I think of it. Would definitely prioritise Dune over Rama, due to its status and it just sounds cool. I think the Gormenghast trilogy has to come high up my priority list, as again I love the sound of it and it's unfinished business from my teens, when I struggled to really get into it. I may end up reading some of the other Malazan stories after finishing TCG, but I may also want a break from the world and to dip into something else for a bit.
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Oct 18, 2018 13:26
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Kingkiller is decent but overrated. The first book has some good bits but also plenty of places where you could see it was someone's first book. The second one builds more on Rothfuss' weaknesses than strengths. The third one looks like it will never be written at this point, since Rothfuss seems more interested in being a Celebrity Author than in publishing books.
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Oct 18, 2018 15:45
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