|
NikkolasKing posted:I understand the meaning just fine. It is divine sanction that Aragorn rule and all things must accord with God's will. But something like this so much more mundane than the other things I mentioned and I guess maybe that's why it irritates me. A king and their family can rule a land for thousands of years and then if the right oaf with the right blood shows up, welp, time to pack it in, they deserve the throne more even if they've never lived here or been responsible for it. What makes it more incoherent to me is that presumably over time "king" would begin to mean some kind of legendary quasi-divine figure and "steward" would mean "what we actually mean by king," but this is a problem partly explained by the longer Gondorian lifespans, and partly by not givin' a poo poo
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 09:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 15:33 |
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:So it goes without saying LOTR and The Sil are profoundly Christian works. When this manifests in stuff like The Ring represents Sin or it was divine providence that destroyed the Ring or Eru knew all along Melkor would turn evil, I don't care much. These are big philosophical/theological questions I don't feel like discussing when it comes to a work of fiction. That's Denethor being a snot, though. He's really into performative non-ostentation: look at the throne thing Nessus mentioned. Note that when he finds out an actual Heir of Isildur is heading south it's a big part of his NO, MINE! gently caress THIS! BURN IT ALL DOWN! breakdown; he says as much to Gandalf. He's got no particular belief in the divine right of kings himself, it's just handy for "kings left us in charge so I'm in charge" and he's perfectly happy wielding the power of a king without actually having the title. Aragorn has no internal political trouble taking over because Faramir's a devout Valarist and happy to hand over, but a different Steward could have made trouble on exactly the grounds you say.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 10:10
|
|
|
In addition to Aragorn's obvious personal qualities, I believe Faramir woke up to "Oh, this guy is the returned king," and as such, did not have much room to press his claims. He didn't exactly come out of it poorly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 10:28
|
|
|
The ten thousand years line is also pretty lol giving how kingship changed hands in numenor.maybe ol denethotr should have arranged a marriage between faramir and aragorn instead of going off the deep end.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 10:50
|
|
|
Nessus posted:In addition to Aragorn's obvious personal qualities, I believe Faramir woke up to "Oh, this guy is the returned king," and as such, did not have much room to press his claims. He didn't exactly come out of it poorly. Yeah, I was thinking "other Steward who hadn't nearly been incinerated by his dad and had to be called back to life by the True King so had a bit more room for political manoeuvring", but Faramir does give the impression he'd have been fine with the handover anyway. Antifa Poltergeist posted:The ten thousand years line is also pretty lol giving how kingship changed hands in numenor.maybe ol denethotr should have arranged a marriage between faramir and aragorn instead of going off the deep end. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 11:13
|
|
|
Antifa Poltergeist posted:.maybe ol denethotr should have arranged a marriage between faramir and aragorn instead of going off the deep end. When they said "Men of the West" they meant men, damnit
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 12:08
|
|
|
That reminds me that one of the little things I enjoyed most about Bored of the Rings was that they took "Steward" literally and made the kid who stepped up and took over for the king a "scullery slave"
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 13:10
|
|
|
Still trying to figure out what all this has to do with Christianity though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 13:18
|
|
|
I would assume the connection between the possibility of buff gay gondorians laying hands on each other for healing purposes and Christianity is evident. Its a Jesus metaphor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 13:23
|
|
|
This guy gets it:The Toast posted:Denethor the Steward of Gondor told Gandalf he wouldn’t bow to Aragorn, “last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.” (Denethor may have been Middle-earth’s Worst Dad Ever, but he had a point there: Aragorn came from royal stock, but the only thing his family had administered for a thousand years was a forlorn wilderness full of ruins, wolves, and trolls that talked like Victorian gutter urchins.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 13:44
|
|
|
Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Still trying to figure out what all this has to do with Christianity though. Divine Right of Kings, so Christianity-as-a-method-of-social-control shut up peasants God wants things this way.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 13:48
|
|
|
The Legendarium is very much focused on the idea of a Divine Plan and everything happening according to Eru's will. Some things just don't make logical sense - like sending one Hobbit to do the impossible (as per Tolkien himself, no one could have willingly thrown the Ring into Mt. Doom) but you have faith and do them anyway. It's why Saruman has always been my favorite villain. Greed and envy were always there but he only truly fell when he used the Palantir. Despair at the hopeless situation and task before them helped drive him to evil. Saruman has a mind of devices and reason and book-learning and in all scenarios based on those things, Sauron is invincible. There is no force in Middle-earth that can defeat him. And so Saruman came up with a new plan, a perfectly sensible plan. If Sauron's forces are unrivaled, and there is no way that any creature present could destroy the One Ring (as no creature is immune to Sin), it is better to take up the Ring and master it. Sauron's power would be broken and his menace finally put to an end. Very logical. I pity Saruman a lot, especially in some of the alternative ideas like when he was afraid of the Nazgul and went to confess everything to the captured Gandalf but Gandalf had already escaped so Saruman's pride and fear mastered him, just like it did when he was defeated and offered clemency. But anyway, I read it all as "God's will transcends even the minds of the Vala." He had dictated such and such would be so, and so it will be so. This bloodline is the rightful ruler, this Hobbit will destroy the Ring. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Nov 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 14:04
|
|
|
Technically, the Ring destroys itself, fulfilling Eru's prophecy that the works of the enemy will turn on themselves and redound to the greater glory of Eru.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 14:16
|
|
|
Normies will criticize LotR for its dialogue but in actual fact its dialogue owns hard. Go back to your Ken Follet novels lolquote:‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 19:05
|
|
|
His mad monologue at the pyre is one of the things I really really wanted to see properly done word for word in the movie.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 19:58
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:His mad monologue at the pyre is one of the things I really really wanted to see properly done word for word in the movie. I had some complaints about Rob Inglis's audiobooks but I did enjoy his rendition of that scene.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2020 20:44
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:His mad monologue at the pyre is one of the things I really really wanted to see properly done word for word in the movie. Denethor was done so badly in the movies. He's an intimidating figure in the books who can stand toe to toe with Gandalf or anyone and hold his own intellectually but in the movies he comes off as a dumb oaf. That scene of him eating the tomatoes grossly is so bad. Sean Bean's Boromir was good though and Faramir was fine other than beating the poo poo out of Gollum but that was a Peter Jackson choice not an actor one so it can be forgiven. I dunno if Denethor's actor could have portrayed book Denethor though in fairness to him he never got the chance to try.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 01:32
|
|
|
Of course it could always have been more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhvrK6CvMU
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 01:38
|
|
|
Don't Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor? It's not as if Denethor was going to be exiled. His day to day duties and position in the kingdom probably would have stayed mostly the same under a king.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 02:06
|
|
|
sunday at work posted:Don't Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor? It's not as if Denethor was going to be exiled. His day to day duties and position in the kingdom probably would have stayed mostly the same under a king. Well, in fairness to him, he was also driven crazy by using a Palantir and opening his mind to an evil demigod.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 02:26
|
|
|
sunday at work posted:Don't Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor? It's not as if Denethor was going to be exiled. His day to day duties and position in the kingdom probably would have stayed mostly the same under a king. Obviously they do, that's why the ruler of Gondor is called a steward. the first was literally the steward of the king. but as quoted above Denethor felt that in resuming that post he would be "the dotard chamberlain of an upstart." He didn't want to be an advisor, he wanted to rule, the thing he'd spent his whole life doing. quote:'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 02:26
|
|
|
Denethors reaction to Gandalf was extremely human and believable to me. The book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
sunday at work posted:Don't Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor? It's not as if Denethor was going to be exiled. His day to day duties and position in the kingdom probably would have stayed mostly the same under a king.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 02:41
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Denethors reaction to Gandalf was extremely human and believable to me. The book. Yeah it’s really good. He’s only just become convinced when we meet him that his nation and family are completely doomed and in comes this loving wizard telling him “I can save your nation and family with my incredibly complex scheme but you’re gonna have to get out of the way. By the way I already started my scheme, not asking your permission or anything, just a heads up”. It’s an incredible leap of faith Gandalf is asking him to make and he can’t do it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 03:02
|
|
|
It makes a bit more sense (tho the version we have makes sense ) when you consider the original plan was that there really wasn’t a connection between Aragorn (or a claim ) and Gondor and he was just yoloing for the crown.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 03:27
|
|
|
FWIW I think John Noble’s performance as Denethor in ROTK is great as far as what he was being asked to do by Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 03:33
|
|
|
sunday at work posted:Don't Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor? It's not as if Denethor was going to be exiled. His day to day duties and position in the kingdom probably would have stayed mostly the same under a king. Kings generally have a steward or chief advisor, but despite Denethor being CALLED steward, he is not actually that guy. He is functionally the king, and some other guy is HIS chief advisor. That other guy is also probably a better candidate for Aragorn's chief advisor, because that other guy is the guy who has actually been doing that thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 05:40
|
|
|
I think a key thing with Denethor is that he was completely honest in the flashback - he was not King, and his line was only standing in for the King. As long, that is, as the Return of The King was something that might happen in the long-off future and probably wouldn't be until he was long dead. It was only when he was faced with the reality of it that his devotion to the idea buckled. That this came at the point of his greatest despair does not help.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 06:45
|
|
|
Forgot to post my new LOTR paperbacks I bought yesterday. Somewhere along the way my old set got lost and all I had was the 50th anniversary single volume. I really like the looks of these. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 13:27
|
|
|
Mahoning posted:Forgot to post my new LOTR paperbacks I bought yesterday. Somewhere along the way my old set got lost and all I had was the 50th anniversary single volume. As time goes on, I like Tolkien's drawing style more and more...
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 13:59
|
|
|
I really love the 2nd edition Alan Lee covers to be honest.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 14:04
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:As time goes on, I like Tolkien's drawing style more and more... Same. It feels sorta like you gave a medieval illustrator a brief course in Renaissance techniques like perspective.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 17:44
|
|
|
Anyone has had a relative turn into a crazy by consuming conservative news/social media understands Denethor's character.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 20:15
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Anyone has had a relative turn into a crazy by consuming conservative news/social media understands Denethor's character. In the end he's basically a CSPAM doomposter: "Why do the fools fly? Better to die sooner than late. For die we must." "Soon all shall be burned. The West has failed. It shall all go up in a great fire, and all shall be ended. Ash! Ash and smoke blown away on the wind! " "Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance. Go then and labour in healing! Go forth and fight! Vanity. For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. [...] The West has failed."
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:In the end he's basically a CSPAM doomposter: lmao
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 22:07
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Anyone has had a relative turn into a crazy by consuming conservative news/social media understands Denethor's character. Ugh, yes. And "The Ring symbolises atomic weapons" is a good anachronistic theory, but the best is "the palantir symbolises social media."
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 22:42
|
|
|
I think there's even a semi-shady social media data mining company unironically called Palantir 
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 22:55
|
|
|
Sarumans “voice” is clearly radio and other mass media which was used by despots like FDR and Hitler to great effect Facebook is in the same line
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:Ugh, yes. I'm thinking of how the majority of people in America who watch the evening news think crime is skyrocketing when it has been on the decline for decades, and how they can't be convinced otherwise no matter what. The palantir showed the truth but it only showed the bad things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 15:33 |
|
|
webmeister posted:I think there's even a semi-shady social media data mining company unironically called Palantir I remember when Trump was either very close to being president, or shortly after he was elected, seeing a news article about him meeting with the CEO of a private defense contractor called Palantir. I laughed out loud at it, and then had to explain to my coworkers why it was funny.
|
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2020 00:18
|
|
