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The focus of the thread is distilled down to "don't go to law school", but I think what we mostly mean is "don't borrow any money to go to law school". The inflated cost of obtaining the degree is to large for the relative worth of it once it is obtained. If someone else is footing the bill, you eliminate possibly the #1 reason why obtaining a law degree is such a bad gamble. IBR also minimizes this risk (at least at the front end, nobody knows yet what they'll do about all those ten and twenty-five year forgiveness deals when tax time comes). So, outside the T14 it can still be a decent idea to attend law school, as long as someone else pays for it, and provided you know what being a lawyer really entails (you don't) and are truly committed to doing such work for the rest of your life (you aren't).
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Jan 24, 2011 15:38
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I agree with Defleshed. Debt load is a major part of the concern you should have when thinking about law school. For example, I'm in a really good place relative to most law students: I'm at Columbia, I have a scholarship that pays for one third of my total debt load, I have less than $20K of undergraduate debt and I have employment lined up for next summer which I feel decent (but not rock-solid!) about turning into a full-time gig. The thing is though that I'd like to impress on most people reading this thread is that your chances of having it as good as I do are really, really slim - almost every opportunity broke my way. So if you read that and thought "ew you're going to be ~160K in debt gross man" then I gotta tell you dear readers law school is almost certainly not for you.
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Jan 24, 2011 15:48
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I dunno, there's also the opportunity cost of losing 3 years of earning and advancement, especially if a JD sets you back and/or you hate being a lawyer. I mean that's a big part of the reason I didn't go to Cardozo on a full ride (also: would have had to take out loans just to live in NYC). I've been getting a lot of recruitment emails / letters from the mid-T14 (NYU, Michigan) because my (second) LSAT and GPA are high enough, but it's not worth it to me at this point. Then again, I like my current job, have career advancement opportunities, and was really only interested in law school in order to be a big gay academic writing big gay papers about gay bullshit, so ymmv.
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Jan 24, 2011 15:52
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Petey posted:I dunno, there's also the opportunity cost of losing 3 years of earning and advancement, especially if a JD sets you back and/or you hate being a lawyer. Ooh, another great point. I think most prospective would-be law students are fresh-out-of-undergrad liberal arts majors though, so this matters in their assessment.
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Jan 24, 2011 15:54
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Feces Starship posted:Ooh, another great point. I think most prospective would-be law students are fresh-out-of-undergrad liberal arts majors though, so this matters in their assessment. That's true. But so was I (which was part of the reason I was so desperate in this thread in version #9 or so). Very rarely does a day go by when I do not thank cthulhu that I did not go to Cardozo. This thread probably saved my life (for I would have taken it). Just to reinforce the debt point: The total cost of law school is: tuition + living expenses (rent, food, etc) + not getting paid / saving from another job + not getting 3 years of advancement at that job. Obviously if you have no job and no prospects for one the cost is limited to the first two factors; however, keep in mind that you may also have no job and no prospects for one after law school.
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Jan 24, 2011 16:02
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Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration.
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Jan 24, 2011 17:13
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Archilochos posted:Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration. The only two people on the thread that I know of at CLS are Feces and Prussian Advisor (Prussian transfered from somewhere else). I'm headed to CLS in the Fall.
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Jan 24, 2011 18:32
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Archilochos posted:Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration. What do you want to know?
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Jan 24, 2011 18:38
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Archilochos posted:Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration. Shoot dawg.
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Jan 24, 2011 18:55
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Starpluck fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Mar 15, 2012 |
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Jan 24, 2011 19:17
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My unsolicited advice is don't go into an undergrad pre-law program. Pick something that interests you and will be of use if you decide not to go to law school.
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Jan 24, 2011 19:20
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Starpluck posted:1-3 don't apply to me, I'm still in high-school. My honest-to-god advice: gtfo the thread and go drink beer/get laid
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Jan 24, 2011 19:20
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Starpluck fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Mar 15, 2012 |
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Jan 24, 2011 19:26
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Should have
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Jan 24, 2011 19:29
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Starpluck posted:
Ok, you're a high schooler. I'm about to give you the best advice ever for getting into law school: Take easy classes in college, and get a 4.0. A 4.0 GPA is more important than taking a hard major or hard classes, or playing intercollegiate sports, or being the President of the XXX society or whatever. Find the easy classes, and take them. Do everything you can to increase the chances of graduating with a 4.0. The reason that this is the best advice is because your GPA and your LSAT score are the two most important things that get you into law school, and it's much easier to control your GPA than your LSAT score. The LSAT is a tough test, it is tough to improve your score, it is tough to do well on it. But your GPA? You can get a 4.0 in art history, or underwater basket weaving, or sub-bridge fellatio, and you will get lumped right next to the people who majored in physics, organic chemistry, and engineering. So take easy classes. It's too bad that most people decide to go to law school once they're juniors or seniors in college, when it's too late to take easy classes and get a 4.0.  When my little brother went to college, I told him that if he had any interest in law school, he should not take physics, or chemistry, or calculus, or any engineering courses. Edit: This advice is terrible if you plan to do anything other than law school, because other grad schools will care about the difficulty of your major, and so will employers. quote:4. I've always seen it as the practical career I should be pursuing. The study of law has always been of interest to me as of a result, I already know much pertaining to this subject as well as participating in slightly related activities (Mock trials, MUN e.g). You don't know much pertaining to this subject at all, but that's ok - no one expects you to. While you are in college, start talking to lawyers to make sure that you understand what lawyers do, and why you want to be a lawyer. entris fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 19:33
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Alaemon posted:My unsolicited advice is don't go into an undergrad pre-law program. Pick something that interests you and will be of use if you decide not to go to law school.
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Jan 24, 2011 19:36
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gvibes posted:This is exactly right. Get a science degree so you don't find yourself locked out of patent work like me.
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Jan 24, 2011 19:45
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SWATJester posted:Get a science degree so you don't find yourself locked out of patent work like me. Yeah, I'd say that you should go to the dumbest school with the easiest engineering/CS/science program if you want a possibility of going into patents. My undergrad engineering school had a 3.2 as graduation with honors at the time and not even 10% of the students got that. It was fine for getting into other graduate schools, but law schools don't care too much about difficulty of the school or major.
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Jan 24, 2011 20:21
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Starpluck posted:4. I've always seen it as the practical career I should be pursuing. The study of law has always been of interest to me as of a result, I already know much pertaining to this subject as well as participating in slightly related activities (Mock trials, MUN e.g). It should be noted that law school and being a lawyer is almost nothing like mock trial, debate club, etc. I don't know what MUN is so I assume it also has nothing to do with law school. I suggest you do the following: Find some big, complicated, and boring case at your local courthouse. The more boring the better. Think contract dispute over Tonka Truck shipping, or a fight over a mortgage or whatever. There should be a heap of paperwork in the file (which is public record and you can request from the customer service desk). Pick a random 50 page Motion for Partial Summary Judgment Regarding Tax Lien Interest Start Date and read it in detail. After you have read this 50 page legal writing masterpiece, think if you want to be doing that every day for the rest of your life. Then if you still want to be a lawyer, follow entris' advice. Get a 4.0 and nail the LSAT and get a full scholarship to a T14. Do not do not do not do not major in "pre-law." Find something you genuinely enjoy, because if you enjoy the work you are more likely to get a 4.0. Finally, while in undergrad be sure to get laid a lot because once you are a lawyer you will be too depressed and probably too fat to get laid again.
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Jan 24, 2011 20:26
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Starpluck posted:I never realized I should of just been drinking my rear end off 24/7 instead of planning ahead of time, thanks for enlightening me. Haha you're a sensitive little bitch you'll do great in law school good luck!
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Jan 24, 2011 20:52
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Defleshed posted:Haha you're a sensitive little bitch you'll do great in law school good luck! gotta make it through college first, raging in gbs about how dumb those frat bros are
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Jan 24, 2011 21:23
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Holland Oats posted:Thanks for posting this, I'm going to try to remember it once I start dealing with real legal work. I'm normally not a big fan of super detailed notes in class but that'll need to change soon. Two things that don't get taught in law school but should are: 1. Constantly question your assumptions. Do you KNOW something is true, or are you making some crucial assumption somewhere? You can't assume you'll remember everything. You can't assume that a certain legal theory will work. You can't assume anything without at least thinking it through. 2. Produce a record. For everything. If it isn't written down, it didn't happen.
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Jan 24, 2011 21:23
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entris posted:Find the easy classes, and take them. Do everything you can to increase the chances of graduating with a 4.0. Trolled the whole drat school. Wish I found SA before I graduated.
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Jan 24, 2011 21:38
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Feces Starship posted:It's really hard to say. I've thought about it a lot however and if I had to synthesize everything I've learned (and heard via anecdote, so take with much salt!) down into a "guide," I would say: The money is really important. I went to a kinda T20 (we tend to be 20, but I think we are 21 this year -- UMN), am unemployed, but I'm not complete hosed because my debt = $0.00. Don't go into debt to go to law school unless it is HYS
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Jan 24, 2011 21:39
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Green Crayons posted:My pre-law adviser - the only one for the school at the time - told all of his students that they should take the most difficult classes possible because law schools take a hard look at the classes on your UG transcript and they would discount any "artificially" inflated GPAs. God drat, that is malicious. That ought to be an actionable offense.
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Jan 24, 2011 21:53
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Archilochos posted:Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration. I'm a CLS 1L.
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Jan 24, 2011 22:46
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2L. MechaFrogzilla is one as well. Morningside heights sucks. Look at the seamlessweb entries for 10027 (us) and for NYU.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:22
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Archilochos posted:Any current or past NYU/Columbia students around that might have some time to talk about their experiences? I haven't heard back from Columbia yet, but regardless of the decision it looks like there's a good chance I'll be heading to Manhattan next year. I know there used to be a list in the OP but it looks like it didn't survive the new thread iteration. Most lawyers I know who went to Columbia are kinda dbag-ish, to be honest. Then again, most lawyers in general are as well.
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Jan 25, 2011 00:16
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Holy poo poo, Daico is a god.
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Jan 25, 2011 00:30
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Starpluck posted:Not the thread, but rather deciding what to be since I've been preparing for it accordingly. I also think that stress impacts me more powerfully, yes I know what to prepare for if I do become a lawyer, but I refuse it to be detrimental during my career and being the sole reason why I shouldn't pursue it.
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Jan 25, 2011 01:10
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billion dollar bitch posted:2L. MechaFrogzilla is one as well. Morningside heights sucks. Look at the seamlessweb entries for 10027 (us) and for NYU. Disagree, Morningside Heights is awesome. That being said, don't go no jobs die alone. Starpluck posted:I never realized I should of just been drinking my rear end off 24/7 instead of planning ahead of time, thanks for enlightening me. Make time to have fun now. It will disappear later. Study abroad, gently caress a TA, do what you can to make the 4 years of college a good time. That being said, do not major in pre-law. Is that even a major anymore? My undergrad just had a lovely advisor who couldn't mail a dean's certification before January because of her blistering incompetence. Study something you like - it usually goes hand in hand with being good at it or at least being interested enough to do well in the classes. Don't think about law school until your junior year and don't go unless you really want to be a lawyer. Make sure you know what that entails. It has no relation to debate, MUN, mock trial, or any other form. Also, international human rights work is interesting like unicorns or interesting. It doesn't loving exist. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 01:11
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Starpluck posted:I never realized I should of just been drinking my rear end off 24/7 instead of planning ahead of time, thanks for enlightening me. you and your life are going to suck so much if you dont find some way to change this mindset
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Jan 25, 2011 02:01
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So I withdrew on Friday, returned my scholarship/loan disbursements today, and am marching blindly on. Hopefully not into a wall. I've got stage 2 of an interview (got through a friend; Thanks CSO lessons on networking!) on Thursday and a few other leads. I'm going to go back and study something worth my time. Edit: I'm gonna keep reading. For Ainsley.
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Jan 25, 2011 02:05
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Starpluck posted:1-3 don't apply to me, I'm still in high-school. lol
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Jan 25, 2011 02:05
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Daico posted:So I withdrew on Friday, returned my scholarship/loan disbursements today, and am marching blindly on. Hopefully not into a wall. I've got stage 2 of an interview (got through a friend; Thanks CSO lessons on networking!) on Thursday and a few other leads.
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Jan 25, 2011 02:11
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The Warszawa posted:Disagree, Morningside Heights is awesome. You must have been an undergrad here or something, but it sucks near the law school itself. Or maybe you're just comparing it to New Haven, which would (from what I've been told) make Flint, Michigan look like paradise...
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Jan 25, 2011 02:59
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billion dollar bitch posted:You must have been an undergrad here or something, but it sucks near the law school itself. Or maybe you're just comparing it to New Haven, which would (from what I've been told) make Flint, Michigan look like paradise... The truth is both. Though I lived near enough to the law school.
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Jan 25, 2011 03:17
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Daico posted:So I withdrew on Friday, returned my scholarship/loan disbursements today, and am marching blindly on. Hopefully not into a wall. I've got stage 2 of an interview (got through a friend; Thanks CSO lessons on networking!) on Thursday and a few other leads. 
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Jan 25, 2011 03:30
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billion dollar bitch posted:You must have been an undergrad here or something, but it sucks near the law school itself. Or maybe you're just comparing it to New Haven, which would (from what I've been told) make Flint, Michigan look like paradise... I'm honestly pretty neutral toward Morningside. I like the space, and the fact that it's a little quieter than down town (I live on Morningside Park). Also, I'm pretty close to the 125th St. ABCD station, which means I can get anywhere in the city pretty drat quickly. On the other hand, it DOES get pretty old going to the same bunch of restaurants or sandwich shops for lunch every day. Regardless, I'm glad to be here, instead of Ithaca or wherever the gently caress.
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Jan 25, 2011 03:32
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Starpluck posted:I never realized I should of just been drinking my rear end off 24/7 instead of planning ahead of time, thanks for enlightening me. Nah that's pretty good advice actually, if you've GOT WHAT IT TAKES to be an (employed) lawyer then you should have no problem cruising through undergrad and enjoying yourself. Anyways, you're still in High School and you're already thinking about Law School? That's gotta be a symptom of something horrible.
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Jan 25, 2011 04:01
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