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jBrereton posted:That's not how it works, they have to be dead. I've definitely had a mage lose a global they were holding because they got feebleminded. I tested this and everything!
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Feb 18, 2015 13:49
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What are some good research goals for Eriu? Should I shoot for alteration or evocation?
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Feb 18, 2015 14:04
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In disciple games: Do you get resources from a neighboring allied province if you have a fort? Can your ally enter your province and use your laboratory to manage magic items and gems? If I relinquish a province to an ally, will he get all the buildings I've constructed as well? Can an ally capable of blood sacrifice do so in a temple I own, even if I cannot use blood sacrifice?
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Feb 18, 2015 18:15
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The Bramble posted:In disciple games: No quote:Can your ally enter your province and use your laboratory to manage magic items and gems? quote:
quote:Can an ally capable of blood sacrifice do so in a temple I own, even if I cannot use blood sacrifice?
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Feb 18, 2015 18:35
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amuayse posted:What are some good research goals for Eriu? Should I shoot for alteration or evocation? Thunder Strike remains a midgame game breaker on anyone with A3 base mages. You only need Mistform from Alteration, at least at first, and then only if you have synergistic bless (N9) and intend to thug.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:37
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Illwinter posted:2015-02-18 23:25:29 +0100
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Feb 19, 2015 03:25
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So, what's up with thugs? I don't really understand the gameplay application of thugs, when to build them, or how to use them. (I kind of understand the gear and spells they use, at least?) I feel like this is a pretty important thing and hoped it'd come to me intuitively but I'm now at 80 hours of playtime against the AI and I still haven't really figured it out.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:38
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Mirthless posted:So, what's up with thugs? I don't really understand the gameplay application of thugs, when to build them, or how to use them. (I kind of understand the gear and spells they use, at least?) I feel like this is a pretty important thing and hoped it'd come to me intuitively but I'm now at 80 hours of playtime against the AI and I still haven't really figured it out.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:25
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you use them to grab land after you make your opponent go ai
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Feb 19, 2015 04:25
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Oh yeah and Lemuria can thug pretty drat well too. Just remember to not take too many tips from Desura when it comes to building thugs.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:28
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Mirthless posted:So, what's up with thugs? I don't really understand the gameplay application of thugs, when to build them, or how to use them. (I kind of understand the gear and spells they use, at least?) I feel like this is a pretty important thing and hoped it'd come to me intuitively but I'm now at 80 hours of playtime against the AI and I still haven't really figured it out. Thugs are almost purely a strategic map play. You use them to landgrab, to manipulate the strategic map around key points, to disrupt reinforcements recruitment and incomes, and to tie up enemy fighting resources with as little of your own as possible. In addition, you can gear thugs concurrently to producing your battle armies, since they rely on the gem economy and fort-commander production entirely, so you don't lose any force production to making them in the stage of the game where they're most useful. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 05:15
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With how much weaker thugs are in Dom4 as compared to 3, I prefer to use them as assassins with blood nations(heart of life/black heart is a great combo) and otherwise mostly ignore them. Killing a few commanders and preventing their forces from taking part in major battles can be game changing. Otherwise the gem investment just isn't worth it unless you've got ponymen or giants.
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Feb 19, 2015 06:41
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Mirthless posted:So, what's up with thugs? I don't really understand the gameplay application of thugs, when to build them, or how to use them. (I kind of understand the gear and spells they use, at least?) I feel like this is a pretty important thing and hoped it'd come to me intuitively but I'm now at 80 hours of playtime against the AI and I still haven't really figured it out. Thugs were a thing in Dom3, but these days the gems come to much better use casting globals, forging path boosters, fueling battlemagic/rituals, and summons. Sure, fantasy Barbies are fun, but big, painful, whole world/battle effects can do far more hurt without the afflictions or potentially losing all that expensive gear.
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Feb 19, 2015 06:42
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Mirthless posted:So, what's up with thugs? I don't really understand the gameplay application of thugs, when to build them, or how to use them. (I kind of understand the gear and spells they use, at least?) I feel like this is a pretty important thing and hoped it'd come to me intuitively but I'm now at 80 hours of playtime against the AI and I still haven't really figured it out. Not every nation has access to thugs, if you are not a pony nation or can't get bane lords don't bother. (People suggested Sleepers but they are garbage) How I thug out my bane lords: a) a shield with a good effect for dealing with being surrounded by poo poo units ->Vine shield > Charcoal shield > The Awe shield (Fire/Earth) > The something sculptata b) fire/frost brand optional, but highly recommended) Boots of flying This costs 12D + ((5F + 5E)/5W )+ 10N gems, so 30-ish gems for a decent thug. Of different types, so if you won an early war and have 2-nations worth of gems, it should be affordable to pump some out. If you are ponymans, the equipment is similar, but you cast mistform before charging into the enemy ranks. You use them to take lands from your enemy, which are guarded by PD only, fly around with a couple of thugs around his lands and watch his income plummet. It is also highly demoralizing to lose lands rapidly and might cause some players to go AI, meta-winning the war. Or fly them alongside your armies to secure more lands so you don't have to split your doomstack. Thugging is not irreplacable. Very effective PD raiding can be done with an air mage casting summon Air Elemental/Living Air, huge FLYING TRAMPLERS. And they're ethereal, so almost unkillable for mundane troops. I'd say there are many other effective ways to raid an enemy's provinces, so don't fret if you don't have thugs. Splitting your army is also fine. There are tons of other ways to accomplish this (Swarm spam/ some skelespammers) so thugs might not always be the cheapest/research efficient way to achieve raiding for your nation. To get a 'grasp' of what thugging is, start a SP game with only humans and indie provinces. Take helheim/vanheim/other ponyman with like a N9E4 bless, or N9E10, take trash scales. Research alt-3 and const-6. Craft a vine shield and a brand, see how many indie provinces your Van/Ponyman can take before he dies with those equipped and (mistform)(blessing)(hold)(hold)(hold) Attack. I think you should be able to even take on an AI's army with ease with this script and a brand+vine shield, since I doubt the AI mages will randomly cast something to deal with your thugs. M_Bison fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 10:16
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There is no easy (read not trading for boosters/empowerment) way to get Bane Lords without access to Death 3, right?
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 11:46
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The ultimate thug is a randomly recruited indie scout that just scoops up empty provinces on his own because your opponents don't read turn messages because there are 30 of them and they are fighting a real war on the other side of the world.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:17
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Fat Samurai posted:There is no easy (read not trading for boosters/empowerment) way to get Bane Lords without access to Death 3, right? Remember you can splurge 45 Death gems to get from Death 2 to Death 3 in a pinch. As a very useful resource which I often check if I want to reach a certain path is: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/dom4-magic-path-booster-guide-by-telos I heard people recommending Sleepers, however I felt like they were a waste of gems on my part, especially having thugged them out and them still dying to PD. Bane lords on the other hand are total champs and can reliably clear PD with a brand+shield. EDIT: In hindsight, I used the sleeper UW, where he has a malus + UW indies are tough as nails, I think I should revisit sleepers EDIT2: I guess they work as thugs, however I prefer to spend my N gems elsewhere. I always see D gems as my "Bane lord gems" M_Bison fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 16:28
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Or a D2 guy can just spend 10 gems on a skull staff and BAM D3!
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Feb 19, 2015 17:09
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Neruz posted:Or a D2 guy can just spend 10 gems on a skull staff and BAM D3! Bane lords require D4, so that isn't enough. I just got an army destroyed in a game on Desura. It was sieging a fortress and ordered them to move away, into my territory, the same turn the relief army arrived. From what I think I know, that should have let my army move before the relief army arrived. Either I completely messed up my orders (which is quite possible) or there is something about movement and sieges I don't understand.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:47
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Fat Samurai posted:Bane lords require D4, so that isn't enough. Oh if you're trying to boost from D2 to D4 then you can also summon a Mound King and give him the skull stick. That is a bit higher up the conj tree though I'll grant.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:50
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Neruz posted:Oh if you're trying to boost from D2 to D4 then you can also summon a Mound King and give him the skull stick. That is a bit higher up the conj tree though I'll grant. Mound Fiend, I think you mean.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:01
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fool_of_sound posted:Mound Fiend, I think you mean. Yes I do.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:03
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Neruz posted:Oh if you're trying to boost from D2 to D4 then you can also summon a Mound King and give him the skull stick. That is a bit higher up the conj tree though I'll grant. Yeah, that is what I meant by "easily". It seems too much of an investment if you're not going for it already just to play with thugs.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:07
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The interesting thing about thugging or strategies that emulate thugging (horror raiding, mage-and-gems raiding, army splits, glamour raiding), is that they are never and in fact cannot (due to cost factors) be designed to fight seriously against armies or against purpose-built defenses. If you have to calculate how your thug will perform in a particular fight, you're probably in an untenable situation and need to rethink your thug use. There are a handful of exceptions, like Mistform N9 ponies against smaller purely mundane armies, but for the most part the thug should stomp every opposition you want to fight (which is 99% PD, honestly) and lose horribly to every opposition you don't. That's why I say the real battle occurs on the strategic map level, not the tactical fight level.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:16
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If I can spam bane lords I can probably also summon longdead horse who are cheap, require no gear, are quite good at raiding and don't feed my enemy items when they get killed. 40 longdead horse can take low to moderate pd without any problems whatsoever and maybe attrition a few guys per province until the other guy deploys something to stop them. Just put one horsie front and center on hold attack with the rest on flanks on attack rear. PD will rush into the one horsie while the side squads rush in and often kill commanders, generating a route. Raiding with thugs is something I generally do when 1) I have a lot of gems and strong thug chassis available 2) I salvage gear from killing someone else's thugs 3) I need specific resist thugs or counter thugs to kill something scary that the other guy has or 4) I am going for flying or stealthed raiders in particular, which is far harder to pull off with troops in most situations and far far more difficult to stop. I find it hard to justify even things like Skratti thugs most of the time since 10 or so garmhirdings/heatpigs/fearwolves can accomplish the same goal and again, don't make me sad when they get killed and don't feed my enemy items. You can gear skratti with nothing but slaves and pearls if you want to conserve N for fearwolves (which you do usually), but with those same resources I can probably set up a lesser horror sender which in my opinion is a FAR more effective use of resources and can also replicate the raiding functionality by sending horrors and taking the province with a scout. However, if the horror send fails, I lose nothing but the 9 slave investment and possibly a scout. Experienced players are extremely adept at killing raiders in either thug or troop form with small numbers of mages deployed defensively and will probably do so. Doesn't mean you shouldn't raid, but don't waste resources on them and spend as little as possible to apply effective raiding pressure.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:32
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Yeah a big reason why pony thugs are so great is due to the fact they are stealthy.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:00
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amuayse posted:Yeah a big reason why pony thugs are so great is due to the fact they are stealthy. Even with pony thugs I usually don't spend a lot to gear them. 2 ponymen in the same square with an appropriate bless can clear anything short of kitfox pd without items most of the time. The recent cav changes make defense tanking with mistform a lot more reliable. Don't even need N9. Those Fs are precious and probably going into lanterns unless I luck into a good income. E's are probably going into hammers, boosters and earthquake traps. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 20:01
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Boing posted:I've definitely had a mage lose a global they were holding because they got feebleminded. I tested this and everything!
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Feb 19, 2015 20:35
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Say, hypothetically, that I'm playing LA Ctis, and the fates have seen fit to give one of my Sauromancers some useful path combination, like F1S1E1D3. He has also been diseased, because I can't have nice things. If he casts Twiceborn, what happens when he dies? Does he keep his paths? Does he keep his items? Does it work if he dies from the disease, or only if he perishes in battle? Where does he turn up when it happens? On the battlefield again, in the capital, the same province? Will he still have the disease, or any other afflictions that it gives him? That sort of thing.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:40
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The_Final_Stand posted:Say, hypothetically, that I'm playing LA Ctis, and the fates have seen fit to give one of my Sauromancers some useful path combination, like F1S1E1D3. He has also been diseased, because I can't have nice things. Twiceborn works as long as he dies in your dominion from normal hp loss. Drowning etc does not trigger it. He keeps paths and pops up in the cap. If you are going to twiceborn do it when he is near death. Nothing worse than twiceborning an important mage and then he gets feebleminded by disease before he kicks the bucket since twiceborn does not heal. Keeping disease doesn't matter because once he goes undead it no longer does anything. All equipment and held globals or things like domes drop. EDIT: and if you are lucky he will come back with +1D. It's like 10% though so don't bank on it.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:57
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KO stated that Muuch will get upgraded to MM2. Toads are now slightly less bad.
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Feb 20, 2015 03:55
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What about every mage that MA Agartha has 
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Feb 20, 2015 11:53
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Boing posted:What about every mage that MA Agartha has Be happy with statues and great elementals!
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Feb 20, 2015 13:44
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Boing posted:What about every mage that MA Agartha has Give a mound king a crown of command, gosh
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Feb 20, 2015 14:38
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Do indies are about their commanders leadership? If I assassinate all the leaders except a wizard or something with 10 leadership, and then attack that province when it has 70 indies but just that one commander, what will happen?
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Feb 21, 2015 00:39
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if you kill all of the commanders the indies will automatically rout when your army shows up, but you have to make sure you get all of them. a mage with even 1 point of leadership can still keep a hundred militia in the fight
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Feb 21, 2015 01:01
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Samog posted:if you kill all of the commanders the indies will automatically rout when your army shows up, but you have to make sure you get all of them. a mage with even 1 point of leadership can still keep a hundred militia in the fight Thanks, that what I was afraid of.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:29
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quote:2015-02-21 00:38:48 +0100 "Flying raiders needed 10000 patrollers to get caught" So, I suppose it's finally fixed now? He doesn't specify the fix, but I suppose flying raiders will be still harder to catch than ground based raiders, just no 100x times harder.
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Feb 21, 2015 10:16
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When should I ever recruit broadsword or axe over cheap spear infantry? Except against skeles.
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Feb 21, 2015 17:35
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The Bramble posted:Thanks, that what I was afraid of. I'm pretty sure even something like, say, a golemn with zero leadership will keep an infinite number of infantry in the fight. As long as there's a commander on the field.
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Feb 21, 2015 18:06
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