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its been around for 20+ years so its not a startup thankfully. I would run screaming from that lol
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May 27, 2023 16:38
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leper khan posted:lifestyle business Money comes up with the cutest names for deviants
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May 29, 2023 13:44
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I don't usually post here but I had a small success that I credit this thread for. I'm in the EU looking for work so there's less wiggle room for salary, and I have no job to use as leverage right now. I just had a first interview for an interesting customer support role that would be fully remote, use my skills, but still give me room to grow. Towards the end of the call, the HR person asked me what my salary range was. I managed to quickly redirect it to a question about their salary range instead, which he responded to. And I'm glad he did — I was underestimating their bottom by about 5-10k! Whether or not I get the job, it's a little thing that worked in my favor. Fingers crossed for the rest.
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May 31, 2023 13:03
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Sweet. Chalk up another thread W
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Jun 1, 2023 20:08
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I just got a random ping to a job that matches my skills, but this is what I got about salary when I asked first:recruiter posted:Good morning, "it's open but we may also tell you to gently caress off". Do I just toss something reasonably in range?
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Jun 6, 2023 14:45
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notwithoutmyanus posted:I just got a random ping to a job that matches my skills, but this is what I got about salary when I asked first: You give them the  number. Or tell them no.
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Jun 6, 2023 14:54
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notwithoutmyanus posted:I just got a random ping to a job that matches my skills, but this is what I got about salary when I asked first: I'd hold off and get more info before tossing anything out. That's an external recruiter so they are just interested in getting you placed, but they're not who you are actually negotiating with. Your best bet would be to hold off on any conversation around compensation right now. I'd probably even be tongue and cheek and reply back with something like "Oh, that's great. I actually operate the same way. They can posit any target compensation and it will factor into whether I take the job!" If you do end up needing to send out a number, go high and have them negotiate you down. The recruiter isn't your friend in salary negotiations.
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Jun 6, 2023 14:56
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also how to best factor corp to corp versus W-2? just add on top for the salary expectations whatever would be the TCO?
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Jun 6, 2023 15:49
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notwithoutmyanus posted:also how to best factor corp to corp versus W-2? just add on top for the salary expectations whatever would be the TCO? If you're not sure you should probably just do W-2. Personally I wouldn't go through the effort of standing up my own corp for a single job unless it was absolutely a dream situation.
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Jun 6, 2023 15:57
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Just for the sake of documenting progress on a negotiation… I’ve been involved in an interview process for an associate partner role at a big consulting firm since January. Went through various rounds and basically landed on being a good fit for the role (and vise versa) back in April. Since then they’re been fairly silent as they work to get the position approved. I spoke with them recently and those approvals are finally done and I’ll be getting an offer in the next couple days. We’ve talked money twice. The first time was in interview #3, with the managing partner, who wanted to know my expectations. I deflected, talked about needing to see a comprehensive offer to respond to, as non-financial comp is not at all equal across firms, and I’ve previously lived that. That deflection was accepted and we moved on to another round with the partner who’d be my boss. I got feedback from someone in the interview that they hadn’t expected that response and to validate that I knew my number. I do, obviously, so I just said I did and we moved on. I was again pushed for a range in the most recent call once the position was approved. Deflected the same way, this person wasn’t as pushy about it and seemed to expect that I would respond that way. The glassdoor posting for this position base is 195-260 with like 20 responses. I’ve anecdotally heard a lower floor than that. Even the bottom of the range would be a nice bump for me, and above what me throwing out a number would have resulted in. I’ll see the offer soon and know whether or not my approach has been successful, but no matter what happens here I’m pleased with myself. I’ve really internalized the advice from this thread and it was actually really easy to just say “no I’m not giving you that information” in these conversations. I know that even once the offer is in front of me, there will still be a negotiation, and I think that part will be the tricky part for me, especially if I like the offer right off the bat. It helps that I have a good job I like, this is definitely a career accelerator move, not me trying to leave a toxic environment or anything like that.
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Jun 8, 2023 18:59
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Well I biffed up by not reading this thread before starting my job search since my current employment has turned into a nightmare. I’ve foolishly given salaries I’m expecting in my first couple initial interviews. But the fortunate thing is these companies are not high on my interest list. Two possibly three opportunities are more promising and I haven’t discussed salary yet with them. Thank you for this thread, it’s very informative!
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Jun 8, 2023 19:50
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I mean, you may end up with a good offer despite giving a salary. Sometimes it can even be useful to anchor high. But if your at a information disadvantage its usually better to push it off.
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Jun 8, 2023 20:09
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In my experience, a big part of becoming a better negotiator is training your emotional state to not get flustered when pressed on saying a number. I relate it to getting used to rejection when asking a girl out. If you don't practice putting yourself in that situation, you will always be nervous. For me the tipping point was when I was asked for my current salary at a screening call. I resisted a bit but thought if the company was asking in good faith, they would be willing to disclose the range for the position if I disclosed. I told them what I was making, then asked them for the range. They said sorry that's confidential. Since then, I have never disclosed.
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Jun 8, 2023 20:14
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Good points, to be fair, I lied and said I was making the next pay rate above my current one for my field of work.
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Jun 8, 2023 20:36
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Don't lie about your current salary, just don't say it.
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Jun 8, 2023 22:32
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Good advice, just had an initial interview a few hours ago where I followed the thread advice and didn't disclose my current salary and got the interviewer to give a ball park rate more than I was hoping for for.
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Jun 9, 2023 01:08
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Mantle posted:In my experience, a big part of becoming a better negotiator is training your emotional state to not get flustered when pressed on saying a number. I relate it to getting used to rejection when asking a girl out. If you don't practice putting yourself in that situation, you will always be nervous. What a bunch of cocks, that must have been very hard to remain composed after they dropped that stinker.
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Jun 9, 2023 02:36
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Well after being unemployed for three months I found a good job at the county and the hiring manger is putting together an offer letter with HR. The problem is the pay range is listed as $27.34 - $36.56 and I really need $36 to make it work for me (even with the benefits which are good). It's a program coordinator position working with a lot of different public health entities, which I don't have a lot of experience in. I've been in food service for twenty years but I've been a manager for five years and have handled a bunch of projects and have a shiny new master's in business so hopefully, I can argue that should place me in the highest pay scale. Wish me luck I guess.
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Jun 13, 2023 22:52
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BBQ Dave posted:Well after being unemployed for three months I found a good job at the county and the hiring manger is putting together an offer letter with HR. The problem is the pay range is listed as $27.34 - $36.56 and I really need $36 to make it work for me (even with the benefits which are good). You know your worth and your years of experience and education can be substituted for unfamiliarity in certain aspects of the position. Be firm on how much you need to be payed to accept the offer.
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Jun 13, 2023 23:08
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Secret Machine posted:You know your worth and your years of experience and education can be substituted for unfamiliarity in certain aspects of the position. Be firm on how much you need to be payed to accept the offer. Thanks. They sent me an offer letter, really great medical benefits, but only 30 an hour…. 36 is within the pay range so I’m going to write back asking for that. The worst they can do is say no right?
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Jun 15, 2023 19:30
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Ask for 40, let them argue you down to 36 if that still works for you.
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Jun 15, 2023 19:42
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Arquinsiel posted:Ask for 40, let them argue you down to 36 if that still works for you. Unfortunately, the range is ironclad because it's a government union job, or that's what I was told. It's a good job I want with reasonable hours and I'd be doing good in my community. Here's what I'm going to send back to HR (probably in a couple of hours): HR person name - I'd like to make this work. Thank you for sending me an offer so quickly, I am excited to get to work with this team and begin work on the challenges discussed in the interview. The benefits look very good, but the pay calculates out to much less than I was making at my last two jobs. I would be happy to accept this position immediately at an hourly rate of $36.56, which is at the top of the range listed in the job description. This is an appropriate pay rate because considering my 20 years of professional experience combined with my recent MBA (GPA of 3.79), I am uniquely positioned to help our county with the issues we discussed. I can and will benefit the team beyond my responsibilities through this experience, delivering additional value other candidates would not be able to. Public presentation, process improvement and creative problem solving are specialities of mine which have been enhanced by my education as well. Finally, according to ZipRecruiter an average MBA graduate's salary in in our state comes out to $36.86 an hour, not including benefits. Is there any way we can bring me up to $36.56 an hour, which is almost the level of pay an average candidate with my qualifications might expect elsewhere? With gratitude, BBQ Dave
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Jun 15, 2023 21:57
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The last two paragraphs are entirely superfluous and will do more harm than help to your case. Just ask for the $36.56.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:02
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You don't need any reason to justify why you want more. Just say something like your acceptance is contingent on getting what you want, or reject the offer and thank them for their time if they can't meet you.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:04
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Eric the Mauve posted:The last two paragraphs are entirely superfluous and will do more harm than help to your case. Can you elaborate on why those two paragraphs would hurt OP? Is it because giving reasons invites counterargument and gives them possible excuses to say no, just a tone thing, something else?
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Jun 15, 2023 22:04
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Secret Machine posted:Well I biffed up by not reading this thread before starting my job search since my current employment has turned into a nightmare. Edit: Not foolish at all - but now you know! This thread taught me to just delay and/or stall giving out your desired salary or salary range, and withholding your current pay until they offer up something first. Q: So what is your target salary? A: Well, really, I'd like hear more about benefits first and consider the total package. Q: Ah, well [explains benefits]. Did you have a target number for salary? A: Possibly! Can you tell me about the PTO policy? Q: Sure, [explains]. So, for salary, what did you need to consider the position? A: I'm taking a few notes - is there a salary range for this position? And at this point, the recruiter is just kind of tired of asking and gives me the range and I've surrendered zero information and zero bargaining posture. This happened literally today. Red fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jun 15, 2023 |
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Jun 15, 2023 22:09
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Unsinkabear posted:Can you elaborate on why those two paragraphs would hurt OP? Is it because giving reasons invites counterargument and gives them possible excuses to say no, just a tone thing, something else? If you're explaining your ask, you're giving points that can be contended and argued. Nip that. Do not provide your counterparty any wiggle room to say "your numbers say this, but we do XXX" or "well you SAY you have these skills but we would like proof, how about we hire you at $Y and raise your salary at Z date?". You are not trying to win a debate, you are telling them what they need to do to have your employment. "I will be happy to accept at $X" is all the runway you should give them.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:12
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"This represents a pay cut from my last two (presumably similar) positions" isn't bad though. I'd personally keep that. Remove the "your benefits are great" line too. You're just bargaining against yourself for no reason.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:16
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Assuming the county is on a grade and step payscale, where $27.34 - $36.56 represents the range between step 1-10 for that jobs grade, there's 2 issues. It's almost unheard of someone coming in at step 10 which is the top of the payscale. Generally you see folks hitting the midpoint of the scale. I'm going to guess the offer they wrote you was step 4 or so on the scale. You might get them to come up to 31 or 32, but It's extremely unlikely they'll come up to the 36 you want. Also if you did get the job and you're at the last step, you wouldn't get a pay increase unless the ranges were adjusted. Now it's not because they don't want to. They probably aren't able to. There's no harm in asking, but their hands are probably tied by bureaucracy, there's a lot of bullshit that goes into hiring gov jobs.
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Jun 15, 2023 22:16
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Unsinkabear posted:Can you elaborate on why those two paragraphs would hurt OP? Is it because giving reasons invites counterargument and gives them possible excuses to say no, just a tone thing, something else? Already well answered, but since you asked me: (1) Giving reasons invites counterargument, yes; (2) It makes you come off as supplicative, saying pretty please I really really deserve it because X. Your position is much stronger if you come off as confident, a person who has many options to choose from, a person who obviously is a bargain at $36.56 per hour. I agree with Lockback that pointing out that you'd be taking a pay cut from your last two jobs is a good move, generally. Might not move the needle moving from private to government, though. Lower salary but better benefits relative to capitalistic pursuits is widely understood to be common.
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Jun 15, 2023 23:09
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Red posted:Edit: Not foolish at all - but now you know! Do you have a range? Yes. Please send me an offer and we’ll go from there.
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Jun 15, 2023 23:13
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Ok sent the first part only, thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Jun 16, 2023 00:49
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Might be getting a temp 1yr offer from an agency for 36/hr soon. The benefits that exist I'm not sure even meet the minimum coverage criteria of the ACA, so I have to imagine the company is on a pretty slim margin. Work seems interesting and gets me into a more technical field while still HR adjacent, but I'm also comfortable walking away. 38.50 a reasonable "offer me this and I'll sign today" number? It means my salary would be OBOOB on a calculator if I flipped it around towards you.
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Jun 16, 2023 04:19
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Jordan7hm posted:Do you have a range? That works, too. I legitimately want to understand the benefits structure, because things like unlimited PTO or your pay being tied to benefits selection are bullshit. But it's worked really well for me to just stall and happily delay until they pony up information first.
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Jun 16, 2023 04:46
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I just got my first "recruiter is trying to get me to agree to terms without showing me the offer" guy and I continue to be confused as hell about it. What does a recruiter have to gain by doing this? As long as I get hired they get paid, right? Is this a sign that the company might tell me to gently caress off if I reject the first offer (thus loving up the recruiter's bottom line)? Is there some other recruiter pay structure where they make more if I get paid worse?
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Jun 16, 2023 05:03
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Parallelwoody posted:Might be getting a temp 1yr offer from an agency for 36/hr soon. The benefits that exist I'm not sure even meet the minimum coverage criteria of the ACA, so I have to imagine the company is on a pretty slim margin. Work seems interesting and gets me into a more technical field while still HR adjacent, but I'm also comfortable walking away. 38.50 a reasonable "offer me this and I'll sign today" number? It means my salary would be OBOOB on a calculator if I flipped it around towards you. One of my first jobs was paid $13.37 an hour. I knew you were supposed to negotiate and chose not to because of that.
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Jun 16, 2023 15:42
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Corla Plankun posted:I just got my first "recruiter is trying to get me to agree to terms without showing me the offer" guy and I continue to be confused as hell about it. External recruiters (like most real estate agents) generally want volume. External recruiters usually get x% of your annual comp, so if you make more it's good for them...but if you make 10% more, and the negotiation causes the offer to fail 20% of the time, or even just delays signing by a month, it's a bad outcome for them.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:00
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And they get paid by the company. You're not the client. You're the product.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:10
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skipdogg posted:Assuming the county is on a grade and step payscale, where $27.34 - $36.56 represents the range between step 1-10 for that jobs grade, there's 2 issues. It's almost unheard of someone coming in at step 10 which is the top of the payscale. Generally you see folks hitting the midpoint of the scale. I'm going to guess the offer they wrote you was step 4 or so on the scale. You might get them to come up to 31 or 32, but It's extremely unlikely they'll come up to the 36 you want. Also if you did get the job and you're at the last step, you wouldn't get a pay increase unless the ranges were adjusted. Yep, right on the money. The director who wanted to hire me broke it down and said she requested I be brought in on pay level five but HR offered me at level two. She advised me to write them a letter arguing my specific qualifications as they pertain to the job. Might get me to 31 or 32. And that might work, medical would be $23 a paycheck for myself and my entire family, and I could really see myself doing this. I'll report back, thank you all.
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Jun 17, 2023 19:34
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Good luck!
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Jun 17, 2023 21:04
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