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kiwid posted:Using a red wire works. It all makes sense now that it's hooked up. I wonder how the original managed to do it without red wire though. I got the setup working based on the design but it seems more effective to handle outside bounds instead. Combinator 1: "Is liquid < 500?" (under threshold) then output red to light and combinator 3; Combinator 2: "Is liquid > 2000?" (into safe zone) then output green to light and combinator 3; Combinator 3: "Are neither combinator 1 nor combinator 2 outputting signals?" (we're between threshold and safe zone) then output yellow to light. The problem arises when the signals from the front of combinator 3 (the one checking for 'no signal' is looped back into its own input. I'm not sure the best way to sanitize that, if not through using different color wires. The original arrangement may in fact have relied on light-color priority.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:54
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Either it relies on that ordering or it always ensures only 1 signal reaches the light. I'd have to check the special signals again to see if there's a way to avoid the flickering while still using their wiring scheme. But a perfect copy isn't necessary, as long as you get the desired behavior. Also, contents > upper limit is not the safe zone, because you're at risk of filling the tank and backing up your whole oil processing system.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:02
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Solumin posted:Either it relies on that ordering or it always ensures only 1 signal reaches the light. Fair enough! I was thinking in terms of not running out, but if we're talking oil production, you're definitely right.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:10
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Ignoranus posted:Fair enough! I was thinking in terms of not running out, but if we're talking oil production, you're definitely right. Thinking about it more, it depends if you want to know how the tank is doing individually or as part of the whole. By itself, more full is better, so green for full makes sense. But as a component of the whole oil processing pipeline, completely full is not good, so yellow makes sense. The third option is to measure the rate of change of the tank's contents and output red if it's falling, yellow if it's rising and green if it's relatively stable.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:23
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I've played around with different styles of differentiating circuits and none work well. The good ones require extensive use of counters which gets complex and overuse slows UPS very quickly, even on a 6700K. I ended up using only four. One each for iron ore, copper ore, crude, petroleum, and green circuits. Everything downstream of that had nice and simple logic latches to startup or shutdown when needed.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:31
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what's the difference between red and green wire?
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Mar 17, 2017 18:35
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little munchkin posted:what's the difference between red and green wire? They're functionally identical but signals don't cross from red to green and vice versa, so you can have two separate networks that physically overlap without mixing.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:38
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This is definitely the best setup: http://imgur.com/a/BWEZ5
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Mar 17, 2017 18:42
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kiwid posted:This is definitely the best setup: http://imgur.com/a/BWEZ5 Are you presenting this as a different setup or agreeing with me? It looks like you've arrived at the same pattern that I was describing, but I could be missing something.
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Mar 17, 2017 18:58
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Circuits are really cool but kinda tricky and severe headache inducing with complicated stuff. I tried to set up a secure rail crossing with gates and while it turned out to be very safe it was only because of the gates across the tracks closing and nearby trains smashing into them. Fortunately I had the perfect solution to fix it, doing nothing as a nearby roboport kept repairing the damage. 
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Mar 17, 2017 19:02
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Poil posted:Circuits are really cool but kinda tricky and severe headache inducing with complicated stuff. I tried to set up a secure rail crossing with gates and while it turned out to be very safe it was only because of the gates across the tracks closing and nearby trains smashing into them. Fortunately I had the perfect solution to fix it, doing nothing as a nearby roboport kept repairing the damage. My favorite rail crossing setup is one that is just gates laid across the track itself - not on the players' path - because the gates will automatically open when a train is nearby and pathing through them. I guess you can turn on/off rail signals using circuits but it does some odd things to the pathfinding or something.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:04
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Ignoranus posted:Are you presenting this as a different setup or agreeing with me? It looks like you've arrived at the same pattern that I was describing, but I could be missing something. Agreeing.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:26
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kiwid posted:Agreeing. Huzzah, I got something right for once! 
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Mar 17, 2017 19:31
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Ignoranus posted:My favorite rail crossing setup is one that is just gates laid across the track itself - not on the players' path - because the gates will automatically open when a train is nearby and pathing through them. I guess you can turn on/off rail signals using circuits but it does some odd things to the pathfinding or something. or...  When the Player approaches either gate, the gate outputs signal G which causes the signal on the entry to the crossing to close.  When a train approaches the crossing, the entrance signal turns yellow, and when it is yellow or red its output signal blocks the gates, preventing the player from running in while a train is coming.   I have the signal output the red color signal for both non-green states which tie into the completely cosmetic lights.
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Mar 17, 2017 20:13
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Will a train going at full speed actually stop if a signal right in front of it suddenly changes due to some circuit condition?
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Mar 17, 2017 23:07
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ShadowHawk posted:Will a train going at full speed actually stop if a signal right in front of it suddenly changes due to some circuit condition? No, but if its right in front of it then it will be in the intersection before you are, even if you ignore it completely and keep running.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:22
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ShadowHawk posted:Will a train going at full speed actually stop if a signal right in front of it suddenly changes due to some circuit condition? 
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Mar 17, 2017 23:29
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I think the signal goes yellow once a train is past the point of no stopping?
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Mar 17, 2017 23:29
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I'm pretty sure trains reserve the block they're in and the next block. The circuit conditions on signals explicitly say that the train won't stop if the signal changes while the train has the block reserved, if I'm remembering it correctly. If you set up your signals with any semblance of sanity, there should be enough room for the train to stop if the signal 2 blocks ahead suddenly changes. I think.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:32
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Solumin posted:If you set up your signals with any semblance of sanity
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Mar 17, 2017 23:39
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I have never managed to get trains to work. To the point where they saved me effort I mean. I just went nuts with five wide blue transport belt networks all over the map. Trains are cool for sure but I found it a headache to make new stops and expand the networks to new sources of materials.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:53
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Catberry posted:I have never managed to get trains to work. To the point where they saved me effort I mean. I just went nuts with five wide blue transport belt networks all over the map. Trains are cool for sure but I found it a headache to make new stops and expand the networks to new sources of materials. You need to use blueprints for maximum train efficiency. If you just stamp out stations and track sections it's way more efficient and also TRAINS.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:55
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Catberry posted:I have never managed to get trains to work. To the point where they saved me effort I mean. I just went nuts with five wide blue transport belt networks all over the map. Trains are cool for sure but I found it a headache to make new stops and expand the networks to new sources of materials. You should really try again - they are extremely useful! Keep it very, very simple your first time (ie ignore all of this posting about automated gating). Generally, when I start a railroad, I look at my map and see which general direction has the most useful resources, which is usually oil. All you need to do is set up a "loop" so that you have 2 stations, with the long distance between the stations just being 2 parallel tracks. Then you just program the train to go from Station 1 --> Station 2 and it will run forever. I stay organized from the very beginning by giving my stations very simple names that are numbered based on how many new stations I could add later. For example: N-00-Hub (main base station on the north side), N-40-Oil (this is a northern oil station with about 40 other possible stations between it and the hub). If I decide later I need a station immediately before N-40-Oil I can just create N-39-Stone and the train automation will be easy to set up and understand. Another organization tip is to guess which direction important resources will be coming from via train. For example, in my current game, I am using my west bound train to deliver iron-- that means I have my furnaces oriented on the west side of the base. Trains are great!
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Mar 18, 2017 00:04
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Catberry posted:I have never managed to get trains to work. To the point where they saved me effort I mean. I just went nuts with five wide blue transport belt networks all over the map. Trains are cool for sure but I found it a headache to make new stops and expand the networks to new sources of materials. Use FARL.
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Mar 18, 2017 00:09
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Solumin posted:I'm pretty sure trains reserve the block they're in and the next block. Even better. Trains constantly track the point where they'd be able to come to a stop if they slammed on the brakes, and factor this into all signal decisions.
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Mar 18, 2017 00:25
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I love trains
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Mar 18, 2017 00:28
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Trains are amazing and excellent and fun to operate once you get a system going. The easiest suggestion I have for minimizing conflicts is to dedicate each rail to one-way traffic. Have the trains return on a different rail. And any time you have an intersection, fork, or merge, use chain signals at the entrance to the intersection and regular signals at the exit.
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Mar 18, 2017 00:39
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Circuits, logistics networks, beacons & modules, and trains are all great and made even more awesome because you can beat the vanilla game without ever touching them. Then you come back a couple months later and say, "this time I'm going to do it with robots!"
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Mar 18, 2017 00:40
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RyokoTK posted:Trains are amazing and excellent and fun to operate once you get a system going. I should probably follow this advice, I tried to do a two-rail multi-directional rail line where all the trains could get on or off in either direction and pick their own rail, but the signals for that are just too complicated, and eventually it would always lead to some kinda traffic jam. Although admittedly a lot of my problems are probably because I always forget to take into account the length of my trains when I build intersections, so I end up with a train sitting at a red light, while the rear end is blocking the previous block, and that always causes issues.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:09
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Oh yeah, the other thing that made it easier for me was using a standard train length for every route. My train lines are always the locomotive plus two wagons; that's still a lot of materials and it keeps everything relatively compact and fast.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:12
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super fart shooter posted:Although admittedly a lot of my problems are probably because I always forget to take into account the length of my trains when I build intersections, so I end up with a train sitting at a red light, while the rear end is blocking the previous block, and that always causes issues. Chain signals, son
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Mar 18, 2017 01:23
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super fart shooter posted:I should probably follow this advice, I tried to do a two-rail multi-directional rail line where all the trains could get on or off in either direction and pick their own rail, but the signals for that are just too complicated, and eventually it would always lead to some kinda traffic jam. Although admittedly a lot of my problems are probably because I always forget to take into account the length of my trains when I build intersections, so I end up with a train sitting at a red light, while the rear end is blocking the previous block, and that always causes issues. Two rail multi directional is impossible. Even in reality it is rarely done.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:30
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It's so much easier to just do one way rails that there isn't a point to do anything else unless you want to melt your brain. Rails are incredibly cheap to build and you have infinite operating space so who cares!
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Mar 18, 2017 01:31
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I've only been playing Factorio for couple months, so for my first very small, very simple 3-4 train setup I found this older reddit post to be fairly helpful getting started. I then decided to try and put together a much larger station than I would possibly ever use for my first game, and I was messing with signals off and on all the way up until I decided to abandon this game and start a new one.  I think it's largely functional, though I've got a feeling the loop intersection sitting where it's at would cause an issue if I ever had more than a dozen trains running.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:43
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Poil posted:Um, is there a guideline for that? Asking for a friend. There's two situations to consider: signals along a stretch of unbroken track and signals at an intersection. The first case is the simplest: the spacing of your signals determines how densely your trains will be on the tracks. If all of your signals are 1 cargo wagon-length apart, a train with 2 cargo wagons will take up 3 blocks minimum, 1 for the train and 1 for each car. (Or really 4 blocks plus any space it needs to slow down.) If each block is instead 20 wagon-lengths long, a train with 2 cargo wagons will have reserved the block it's in, plus the next block if it needs the space to slow down. Because blocks can only be reserved by 1 train, having overly large blocks means your trains will be more space out. This isn't a huge issue, really -- maybe there's tiny efficiency/throughput gains to be made by making smaller blocks, but it doesn't really matter. Just make sure long stretches of track are broken up by signals, and you'll be fine. The second case, using signals at intersections, is more complex. You have one goal: Only one train is ever in the intersection at a time. That is, if a train enters the intersection, the tracks it must cross will be empty and will remain empty. To be honest, it's not the hardest thing in the game to get a handle on, especially if you use a guide to get started. Once you've constructed a few intersections, you start to see the pattern of signals and see how the whole assembly works together to make a functional intersection. For a more detailed guide, I recommend this: http://guide.factorio.com/10-trains.html For examples of intersections, check out this album: http://imgur.com/a/CxXxd Moddington posted:Even better. Trains constantly track the point where they'd be able to come to a stop if they slammed on the brakes, and factor this into all signal decisions. This is really good to know and I have incorporated it into the advice above!! Catberry posted:I have never managed to get trains to work. To the point where they saved me effort I mean. I just went nuts with five wide blue transport belt networks all over the map. Trains are cool for sure but I found it a headache to make new stops and expand the networks to new sources of materials. I'm wondering how you set up your rail networks. The easiest way is to have a main trunk that stations peel off of. Here's an example:  The rail at the bottom is the "main trunk", where any through traffic goes. The upper rail is for the station. Trains that stop at the station just pull off the main trunk, stop, and when ready to go wait for the signal ahead of them to be green so they can safely re-enter the main trunk. So adding new stations is easy. Unless you mean it's a headache to do all that for a new station, then get the inserters and things you need to load/unload a train, then add the stop to the train schedule... that's definitely a pain, but blueprints can help.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:50
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Onean posted:I've only been playing Factorio for couple months, so for my first very small, very simple 3-4 train setup I found this older reddit post to be fairly helpful getting started. I agree about removing the circle - I also like to add chain signals to the (vertical part of the) incoming branch between each of the (horizontal) stacker lanes, so that in theory, at least, it goes faster. The other detail is that it's helpful to try to place the actual unloading stations and stacker in such a way that you can add more capacity by building onto it instead of redesigning - so, like, having another lane that they converge into after unloading there, so another station can just be bolted on. FAKE EDIT: I spotted one signalling change you could make: the signals after the stations, where the three lanes converge into one, should be chain signals instead of regular signals. That way, a train won't get into that little one-lane section unless it can actually completely enter the main highway. Also, if I don't miss my understanding of things, with the signalling as it stands all of the (currently-blue) stacker chain signals will turn red whenever a train is in that one-lane section. I'd probably swap the bottom-left-area chain signals for regular signals, that would resolve the problem completely. ACTUAL EDIT for some train signal stuff: Chain signals go at the beginnings of 'contested areas' (intersections and such) and regular signals go after those areas. Ignoranus fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 02:12
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Yeah, I'm about to work on a full train station in my second factory now that I've got robots up and running. I completely ignored the factory aspect of bots in my first factory, only using them for de/construction, and I'm looking forward to setting up a bot-based sorting station since a bunch of the ore spots around my factory are overlapping multiple ore types. Thanks for the tips!
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Mar 18, 2017 02:47
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M_Gargantua posted:Two rail multi directional is impossible. Even in reality it is rarely done.
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Mar 18, 2017 04:02
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Even then, I feel like I'd rather have four rails (two in each direction) just to be sure. But trains in this game stop on a loving done compared to irl trains so unless you have a massive amount of trains, or really short pull-offs for stops, I can't see that being an issue.
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Mar 18, 2017 04:08
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Yea, my old rocket/minute builds used to have 20-50 1-car trains running (before the train manager window). 4-lane highways worked wonders, but it was always "funny" when a traffic jam happened for some reason and all 50 trains backed up (usually a train hitting a behemoth or two and stopping/getting eaten, leaving a dead car). Nowadays that you can say "stop/go as you're empty/full" and use Stack Inserters to pack belts, a single three-car train station (in near-constant use) almost provides more ore than I can handle, which is a crapload easier than trying to get a 8-10 station railyard working.
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Mar 18, 2017 04:20
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