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Prairie Bus posted:Alchemists is a great example of an app done well. The logic game has seven (I think) different reagents, each with its own secret chemical composition. Each reagent can be combined with another reagent to produce a result. In order for the game to work, something has to know what results from each potential combination, and that something has to be able to give out the information. It's entirely possible to do it with a human player, whose only job is to secretly look at combined reagents and compare them to a grid, but that would be a lovely, boring role. The app unobtrusively takes that role. It doesn't hide any fiddly or unintuitive rules, and it lets all the players focus on the actual game. Yeah, but the way I see it once you have done that what is the point of the board game? Why have a physical game instead of just letting players tap pictures of reagents on their phone? If you instead look at it as a app with cardboard integration, rather than a board game with app integration than it becomes really kind of dumb. I guess what turns me off the most is having a "black box" in the game rules. If a game requires an app to play (other then than just as a scoring supplement) there is nothing I can do to alter that app or home rule it. I can't look at the code like I can look at a games instruction booklet. I like to understand the entirety of the game. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 17:40
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psyer posted:Trying to determine whether to get Kingdom Builders or Castle of Burgundy. How is each game? Kingdom Builder is a much shorter game, which can help make up for the fact that the randomness is more likely to screw you over. Both games have ways to mitigate their randomness, but Kingdom Builder doesn't start you with any, which means a bad start can leave you literally lost in the desert. Castles is going to feel more similar from game to game, and it's a Feld game, so some people are going to knock it for being Point Salad. Castles gives everyone their own board, so your only interaction is buying things before other people can get to them, some people might prefer that to putting everything on a central board where blocking people is more obvious and aggressive.
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Apr 11, 2015 17:43
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:It kinda turns them into a strange halfway house that currently there isn't really a good term for. I don't think there needs to be one, mind you; it's a cool marriage of old and new that I can get behind. We lump card games in as 'board games', why can't we do the same for app-driven or app-integrated games? Either that or just call the whole lot 'table games' and it covers any kind of situation where you get a bunch of people around a table playing a thing.
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Apr 11, 2015 17:43
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Minature wargaming 
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Apr 11, 2015 17:44
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BeefyTaco posted:
I would never recommend RoboRally to anyone. It is a really neat idea in a horrible death spiral slog of a game. "But!" you say, stepping in to defend it, "It's fine if you only play with courses that are a single board! And it's fun to play spoiler, sitting near the start and blasting people!" Sure, maybe? If it feels ok to you to buy a game that you'll only play the shortest version of, and usually have to resort to kingmaking/dragging it out to have fun, then go right ahead! Otherwise, definitely do not go right ahead.
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Apr 11, 2015 17:51
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thespaceinvader posted:Dice rollers for things which come with custom dice, but nowhere near enough of them (I'm looking at you, Descent 2e). But combat in Eclipse only lasts for precisely one missile volley; there's not that much dice rolling! 
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Apr 11, 2015 17:59
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homullus posted:I would never recommend RoboRally to anyone. It is a really neat idea in a horrible death spiral slog of a game. "But!" you say, stepping in to defend it, "It's fine if you only play with courses that are a single board! And it's fun to play spoiler, sitting near the start and blasting people!" Sure, maybe? If it feels ok to you to buy a game that you'll only play the shortest version of, and usually have to resort to kingmaking/dragging it out to have fun, then go right ahead! Otherwise, definitely do not go right ahead. Yeah, I used to like Roborally long ago but it really hasn't aged well. It's pretty rare to play a game that doesn't end with a runaway leader.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:04
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quote:Yeah, but the way I see it once you have done that what is the point of the board game? If, as before, your point in playing a board game is to get some "non-screen time" or something.. then I guess obviously an app driven board game misses the point. But many people just want to play an interesting game, face to face with people, and don't care too much what physical parts are involved - and apps may make certain game ideas viable that weren't before. I can imagine lots of game ideas that could be made better by having easy to manage timers, information that is consistent but hidden from all players and parceled out in a managed way, automation of fiddly upkeep, and visualization of complex/changing data. There's potential downfalls, certainly: 1. Lack of transparency on rules. Many video games have bad design that rely on hidden mechanisms to work, or have an effectively opaque burden of rules that limits how much tactical decision making a human can do. There will be a temptation for bad designers to bring video game style crappy design into boardgames. 2. Lack of customizability. If you're relying on players to fix your crappy design, they may be less able to do so if parts are frozen within the app. That said, a well designed app could well actually facilitate customization and expansion (since bits are easier to change than words on cards). 3. Fiddling. If there's non-app information the app needs to work, you might end up doing a bunch of data entry, or seeing technical issues with fancier mechanisms (eg. if the app tries to scan board state with a camera or whatever, that might end up being flakey or not working after a few years of tech updates). There's lots of potential elements with good and bad properties that get debated. Random sources (like dice) get debated all the time, but having random sources in the design space makes games more interesting. Some people think dexterity elements ruin the whole point of games; they're usually not my favorite, but I've enjoyed them and I'm glad they exist. Integrating electronic components is just one more tool that game designers can use for good or evil.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:08
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homullus posted:I would never recommend RoboRally to anyone. It is a really neat idea in a horrible death spiral slog of a game. "But!" you say, stepping in to defend it, "It's fine if you only play with courses that are a single board! And it's fun to play spoiler, sitting near the start and blasting people!" Sure, maybe? If it feels ok to you to buy a game that you'll only play the shortest version of, and usually have to resort to kingmaking/dragging it out to have fun, then go right ahead! Otherwise, definitely do not go right ahead. I find myself generally open-minded to games, like I have no real beefs with Dead of Winter or Arkham Horror and actually enjoy the occasional game of Cosmic Encounter. But I honestly have no clue how anyone enjoys RoboRally. Pretty much every game I played ends up being "This is taking way too long, let's just end it on this map." It's just too tedious and takes forever to accomplish anything in that game.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:09
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homullus posted:I would never recommend RoboRally to anyone. It is a really neat idea in a horrible death spiral slog of a game. "But!" you say, stepping in to defend it, "It's fine if you only play with courses that are a single board! And it's fun to play spoiler, sitting near the start and blasting people!" Sure, maybe? If it feels ok to you to buy a game that you'll only play the shortest version of, and usually have to resort to kingmaking/dragging it out to have fun, then go right ahead! Otherwise, definitely do not go right ahead. Yeah, I enjoy RoboRally but it's more of a sandbox than a game. Like, you can have fun with shooting and programming actions and trying to get where you want to go then everyone just decides to stop playing when they've had enough (usually 30 minutes to an hour).
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Apr 11, 2015 18:13
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Funny story about RoboRally. I was one of the original playtesters and I HATED IT (still do). I told them it was terrible! Well of course they still published it anyway, and you can tell you have the first edition because I'm thanked in the rulebook. That was the last time I playtested a game because clearly I was not always able to see potential appeal of games that I didn't like. It was a lesson for me.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:21
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I'm teaching Archipelago for the first time tonight. Do any veterans have advice for easily over looked/confusing rules that they've experienced in their own play sessions that I should get out in front of?
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Apr 11, 2015 18:21
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Shes Not Impressed posted:I'm teaching Archipelago for the first time tonight. Do any veterans have advice for easily over looked/confusing rules that they've experienced in their own play sessions that I should get out in front of? The main thing that tripped me up the first time through was that a Transaction action on the marketplace normally only covers a single unit of goods. You can't clean out/flood the market in one go. I eventually came across an evolution card that made this more obvious. Also remember that during a crisis, you can't use goods on the Domestic market to satisfy an Export crisis, or vice versa. This is clear in the rules and somehow I missed it.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:59
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Thanks for all the help, everyone. Sounds like I dodged a bullet on RoboRally. I waited too long on Trajan unfortunately, so looking at the others I think I may take a chance on Libertalia.
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Apr 11, 2015 19:02
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Shes Not Impressed posted:I'm teaching Archipelago for the first time tonight. Do any veterans have advice for easily over looked/confusing rules that they've experienced in their own play sessions that I should get out in front of? Make sure people trade with each other more than they trade with the market. Using the market is slow and expensive, so have people make deals with each other. Also, make people aware that there is an objective that wins if the natives revolt. This basically stops people from playing the revolt track to the edge for the sake of personal gain, like with the Slavery card.
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Apr 11, 2015 19:18
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Rutibex posted:Yeah, but the way I see it once you have done that what is the point of the board game? Why have a physical game instead of just letting players tap pictures of reagents on their phone? If you instead look at it as a app with cardboard integration, rather than a board game with app integration than it becomes really kind of dumb. Uh, Alchemists's deduction grip app basically is a highly-evolved scoring app. Or, more accurately, it's taking a game that would need an unpaid referee/scorekeeper/GM and automating the function. And if it bothers you that much, you can forego the app and play with a human referee. The game comes with instructions for doing just that. The rules architecture is entirely transparent. There's no black box. X-COM, on the other hand, bothered me entirely because the rules architecture revolves around a black box. Fantasy Flight and its representatives have specifically stated that they have no intention of releasing the rules logic that governs phase order/appearance rates/data obfuscation. (Apparently, they want the freedom to patch these rules without the players being aware, so that the alien strategies can evolve sight-unseen.) I'd probably be a lot more torn over this if X-COM wasn't a boring dice game hiding under a mountain of chrome.
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Apr 11, 2015 19:29
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Shes Not Impressed posted:I'm teaching Archipelago for the first time tonight. Do any veterans have advice for easily over looked/confusing rules that they've experienced in their own play sessions that I should get out in front of? Definitely do explanation -- Turn 0 -- more explanation; it breaks up the explanation phase. It's tempting to skip phases or do them out of order, but they're labeled on the market boards for a reason. I screwed this up last time I taught the game (oops): The Transaction action uses an action, and allows you to buy or sell one cube from either the domestic or foreign market. Each Market or Port you control lets you pay 1f to buy or sell two cubes on the domestic or foreign market (respectively) without ever using an action. If you control a Temple, not only does somebody engaged within never rebel, but they can also stand up any rebels in their area for free. You can of course negotiate a rate higher than "free" for standing up others' workers, since it is a crisis phase action.
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Apr 11, 2015 19:34
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Thanks everyone! I also underestimated how much table space this game takes up.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:15
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It's a wonderful game, I should play it today...
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Apr 11, 2015 20:17
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How's Formula D? Looking for something light that can be played on holiday in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with 6 people and a lot of beer.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:17
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quote:How's Formula D? Looking for something light that can be played on holiday in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with 6 people and a lot of beer. We got it a while ago because it seemed like a well respected classic that we should try. We got through a few games before selling, but it was boring from game 1. There's some good ideas, and it's fun rolling a big dice, but it takes far too long for a game that pretty much hangs on a single mechanic.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:21
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Quote-Unquote posted:How's Formula D? Looking for something light that can be played on holiday in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with 6 people and a lot of beer. I'd recommend Camel (C)up for lighter fare. It has both racing and betting, which appeals to a lot of people.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:22
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Quote-Unquote posted:How's Formula D? Looking for something light that can be played on holiday in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with 6 people and a lot of beer. It's a dressed up roll and move game with a few cool ideas.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:22
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ETB posted:I'd recommend Camel (C)up for lighter fare. It has both racing and betting, which appeals to a lot of people. Yeah, Camel Up is a better game for a similar length and genre. Formula D is... dull, in my experience. It didn't offer a lot of strategy.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:24
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I don't mind roll-to-move (and the gear shift rules look pretty fun) but if it's as one-dimensional as you guys make it sound I guess I'll see if I can borrow a copy to see what everyone thinks before splurging on it. Anything else that's fairly casual that works well with six players? Preferably something with some fun dick-each-other-over mechanics. We all like Talisman for mindless dice rolling and general dickery but that takes like an entire day to play and has like a million components (we have all the expansions, it's madness). Gonna take Galactica for pre-drunk gaming, though I find that works best with exactly five, and sadly Chaos in the Old World is out since that needs exactly four to be good. I think Galaxy Trucker only supports five (with the expansion) too.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:34
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Quote-Unquote posted:Anything else that's fairly casual that works well with six players? Preferably something with some fun dick-each-other-over mechanics. We all like Talisman for mindless dice rolling and general dickery but that takes like an entire day to play and has like a million components (we have all the expansions, it's madness). You might like Coup, it works with 6 and has plenty of "dick-each-other-over mechanics": https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup
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Apr 11, 2015 20:48
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Rutibex posted:You might like Coup, it works with 6 and has plenty of "dick-each-other-over mechanics": Looks cool, and it's cheap as hell so I'll probably grab this. Cheers!
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Apr 11, 2015 21:20
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Quote-Unquote posted:I don't mind roll-to-move (and the gear shift rules look pretty fun) but if it's as one-dimensional as you guys make it sound I guess I'll see if I can borrow a copy to see what everyone thinks before splurging on it. My big issue with Formula D is the playtime. 20 minutes per car may not sound like much, but that's still an hour and 40 minutes for a 5-player push-your-luck game with player elimination. It's especially bad when people start clambering for multiple cars per player. With the maximum number of cars, Formula D takes as long as the longest Euros.
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Apr 11, 2015 21:30
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So early Magic: I bought Magic the Gathering the first day I saw it and played it non stop for at least two years. At that time, the big thing was CompuServe, and I was the first 'judge' (although they weren't called that then) outside of WotC on CompuServe. I remember thinking that it was an amazing game where someone made a game but they couldn't explain exactly how it worked! And that was Magic. Revised was probably the first edition to have rules that made any kind of sense. The combat was poorly defined and the timing was 'use your intuition and hope'. I remember making the first real timing ruling. Timmy the Wizard could kill the Orcish Artillery, but that wouldn't stop an earlier activation of the Artillery. A lot of people were mad about that ruling, but it's stood to this day, otherwise the game goes into some kind of strange fourth dimension poo poo that no one could understand. The other big ruling (which was made by WotC) was that blocked creatures stayed blocked. This wasn't the case when the game released, but again it would take at least an app (which were unknown then) to try to resolve a combat where killing the blocker of a card could result in the card still doing combat damage. I don't keep up with it anymore, but maybe they finally figured out a way around that. The entire game blew up when WotC realized that 1) people could own multitudes of 'rare' cards and 2) there were at least two recursive decks that could not be beat. That was when they really worked hard at trying to fix the game and make it more understandable and more balanced. It was clear early that cards like Black Lotus were a mistake and that they would have to balance the cards using mechanics instead of rarity. This is where I think Dr. Garfield got out; I don't think he was interested in trying to fix his creation, since there was clearly going to be enough money in the game for WotC to hire people to fix it. Also WotC never imagined people buying cases of boxes at a time, and it took them three years to get to the point where they produced enough product to meet demand. It was totally crazy. I sold boxes I paid $100 for for three to fives times as much, there was so much demand for the game. As the game matured, and demand met, it was fairly clear that there were still many parts of the game that just didn't make sense. They got rid of interrupts and created the 'stack', both of which helped tremendously. This is where I moved on, basically because board games were getting a lot better at that time and they offered more varied play with less investment. I don't play anymore. As I mentioned before, I hate the online client, and I really feel Hearthstone is much better for my time and money.
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Apr 11, 2015 21:43
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Need help deciding between Libertalia and 7 Wonders. I have two gaming groups, one that at most has 2 other people (though usually ends up with just me and someone else) and the other group includes children under the age of 13. I was edging towards 7 Wonders simply for the fact that I already own Takenoko, Tokaido, and Hanabi. The groups seems to enjoy his work. However, both groups also enjoy cutthroat and hidden role games. Which game has more bang for my buck in replay value?
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Apr 11, 2015 21:48
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Trying to play Las Vegas with my 83 year old dad: As mentioned my dad has a Phd (in chemical physics from Caltech). What this means in terms of him being 83 is that he expects to know nearly anything presented to him, but his age prevents that, so he is frustrated a lot. He's angry for example, that he doesn't know exactly how the internet works, and kept asking that all week. ("We're clueless dad, just accept the internet as what it is"). We taught him Las Vegas. Note that he's never played a board game before. He was raised in Jim Crow Georgia, extremely poor. They were lucky to have a deck of cards and something like Monopoly was totally out of the question. He played Bridge for many years, so he's familiar with at least that. When we taught him Las Vegas he wanted to know why everyone's dice colors didn't change every turn. We as board gamers just kind of know that when you choose your player color you keep the same color throughout the game, but he didn't realize that. We spent five minutes explaining the first player card "Why do you need a first player card, doesn't everyone know who went first???" and he never did understand the white dice variant. "Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad and sometimes it doesn't matter. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever". Every time the white dice came out or had to be played, he wanted a new explanation. Despite all that, he really enjoyed it. We played it twice, and he would have played it again, but it was late. We told him that his tombstone would read "Here lies a man who never did understand the white dice".
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Apr 11, 2015 21:50
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ChikoDemono posted:Need help deciding between Libertalia and 7 Wonders. I have two gaming groups, one that at most has 2 other people (though usually ends up with just me and someone else) and the other group includes children under the age of 13. I was edging towards 7 Wonders simply for the fact that I already own Takenoko, Tokaido, and Hanabi. The groups seems to enjoy his work. However, both groups also enjoy cutthroat and hidden role games. Tough call. Based on what you've said, I'd go with Libertalia - 7 Wonders is more 'gentle' than Libertalia and it sounds like you've got a lot of gentle games already, and I think it's generally better to broaden your collection than keep it narrow. Plus every kid likes pirates more than ancient history. [EDIT] Maybe these will help you decide? 7 Wonders Libertalia bobvonunheil fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 22:18
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Thanks for response. I think I'll go with Libertalia based on what you said and those links.
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Apr 11, 2015 22:33
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I don't have Archipelago yet but is the War and Peace expansion difficult to find? I found a copy at my FLGS for $13, wondering if I should nab it.
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Apr 11, 2015 22:42
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Millions posted:I don't have Archipelago yet but is the War and Peace expansion difficult to find? I found a copy at my FLGS for $13, wondering if I should nab it. It's relatively hard to find, yeah. Only buy it if you plan to purchase the game, obviously
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Apr 11, 2015 22:52
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Quote-Unquote posted:How's Formula D? Looking for something light that can be played on holiday in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with 6 people and a lot of beer. Formula B (for boring) Borrow it if you like, but it is terrible. How it is played every year at Winter War (an Illinois game con) I'll never know.
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Apr 12, 2015 01:57
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Indolent Bastard posted:Formula B (for boring) Borrow it if you like, but it is terrible. How it is played every year at Winter War (an Illinois game con) I'll never know. All this talk about Formula D makes me sad that my favorite simple racing game, Top Race doesn't get a reprint, if not a super deluxe version.
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Apr 12, 2015 02:08
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Indolent Bastard posted:How it is played every year at Winter War (an Illinois game con) I'll never know. This is my guess:
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Apr 12, 2015 02:21
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Some Numbers posted:This is my guess: but it so isn't.
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Apr 12, 2015 02:35
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Lorini posted:Funny story about RoboRally. Lorini posted:So early Magic: Lorini posted:Trying to play Las Vegas with my 83 year old dad: Lorini, you continue to be the most interesting poster in this thread, and I thank you.
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