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al-azad posted:The best argument for how I feel about table talk involved a game of Mare Nostrum. It’s a real fragile game where you can win turn 1 if nobody is paying attention which results in a lot of clever ways to manipulate your position openly or secretly. That just sounds like people weren't actually paying attention to the totality of the game state, which seems like an equally hollow victory to me.
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Jan 22, 2020 03:28
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I played Brass: Birmingham for the first time last weekend. I liked it. I think I'll try to play again soon. Any common tips for new players?
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Jan 22, 2020 03:33
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Lampsacus posted:In line with the current discussion of players verbally coercing others to do their bidding, the absolute worst I've come across was a friend who wouldn't shut up. He wouldn't stop telling you that your move is suboptimal and then goad you with "NO. You must tell me why this move is better than the move I propose and then the game can continue." He would move players pieces back if he thought there was a better move. He would cite forum posts on boardgamegeek and demand everybody min/max according to his understanding of the game. Even in social deduction games like resistance he kept saying stuff like "actually statistically you should vote this. all feelings don't count, only voting records track." oh yeah he would record everybody's vote for sending ppl on missions. What's worse is he'd bring along a friend who was very similar and would agree with him. I guess they're off somewhere now, playing chess with AI aids and having aneurysms. Gah!!
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Jan 22, 2020 03:36
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taser rates posted:That just sounds like people weren't actually paying attention to the totality of the game state, which seems like an equally hollow victory to me. Every victory is hollow until your mind is powerful enough to defeat god
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Jan 22, 2020 03:37
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18xx is the best also for table talk because nobody can read the board state and everyone just makes train noises all game
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Jan 22, 2020 03:45
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CommonShore posted:18xx is the best also for table talk because nobody can read the board state and everyone just makes train noises all game Choo choo, motherfucker
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Jan 22, 2020 03:47
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silvergoose posted:Choo choo, motherfucker :beatboxes the theme to thomas the tank engine:
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Jan 22, 2020 03:55
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Lampsacus posted:In line with the current discussion of players verbally coercing others to do their bidding, the absolute worst I've come across was a friend who wouldn't shut up. He wouldn't stop telling you that your move is suboptimal and then goad you with "NO. You must tell me why this move is better than the move I propose and then the game can continue." He would move players pieces back if he thought there was a better move. He would cite forum posts on boardgamegeek and demand everybody min/max according to his understanding of the game. Even in social deduction games like resistance he kept saying stuff like "actually statistically you should vote this. all feelings don't count, only voting records track." oh yeah he would record everybody's vote for sending ppl on missions. What's worse is he'd bring along a friend who was very similar and would agree with him. I guess they're off somewhere now, playing chess with AI aids and having aneurysms. An excellent example of why I stopped hosting public meetups. Geezus.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:00
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Yoshi Wins posted:I played Brass: Birmingham for the first time last weekend. I liked it. I think I'll try to play again soon. I think it's important to stress that taking out a loan is not just something you do if you're stuck, as is sometimes the case in games. Loans are a great way to slingshot yourself into serious map presence, and they're basically necessary if you want to win the game. Make it clear that it's normal to take out a loan three or even four times over the course of the game. Make sure everyone knows the difference between your network and connected-- specifically, your network is based on your personal buildings and connections, and limits where you can build with industry cards (but not location cards), whereas connected uses everyone's connections, and affects selling and the movement of coal. Also, make sure everyone knows that the ONLY times you ever get points are at the end of each era. Finally, make sure everyone actually plays a card whenever they take an action. For most of the actions, the identity of the card doesn't matter, you can just throw anything out, which often leads people in my group to forget to do it. I don't think we've had a single game yet where there wasn't some issue over a player having some extra cards in their hand at the end of an era. Just make a small ritual out of adding two cards to the discard after you're done with each turn. Full disclosure, I've only played the Lancashire version.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:18
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I can't imagine someone telling me the best moves, newbie or not, unless this is specifically a teaching game. They'd get one polite warning, one impolite admonition, and then I'd just get up and leave since they want to play my side too anyway.Lampsacus posted:In line with the current discussion of players verbally coercing others to do their bidding, the absolute worst I've come across was a friend who wouldn't shut up. He wouldn't stop telling you that your move is suboptimal and then goad you with "NO. You must tell me why this move is better than the move I propose and then the game can continue." He would move players pieces back if he thought there was a better move. He would cite forum posts on boardgamegeek and demand everybody min/max according to his understanding of the game. Even in social deduction games like resistance he kept saying stuff like "actually statistically you should vote this. all feelings don't count, only voting records track." oh yeah he would record everybody's vote for sending ppl on missions. What's worse is he'd bring along a friend who was very similar and would agree with him. I guess they're off somewhere now, playing chess with AI aids and having aneurysms. ...I'll just say thank gently caress I never played with that guy.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:22
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I'll tolerate a limited amount of strategic whining but I don't do it. In heavy interaction games I'll say things like "david's gonna win, look at him." But I'm not gonna be the guy who goes "really??" when you attack me. I do know guys who say stuff like that but most of them have a specific tone that suggests they're being light-hearted. Basically are you being light-hearted and are you communicating a sense of chill while you're complaining or backstabbing or pointing out that I have more victory pylons or whatever? You're fine if you are. Some people will actually try to ACT and be be dramatic to manipulate people into doing different actions and that's over the line for me. We're here to play board games, not to celebrate the holidays with our families.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:36
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One of the most unpleasant experiences I've had playing a game was playing Puerto Rico for the first time with two people who had hundreds of plays. I knew I had no chance, but every move I tried to make was met with "don't do that, do this instead". Worse, they couldn't explain beyond instinct why what they were doing was good for them when I asked. It felt like getting mentally beat up. Despite it being a good game, I have a strong aversion to playing it now.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:47
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Krazyface posted:I think it's important to stress that taking out a loan is not just something you do if you're stuck, as is sometimes the case in games. Loans are a great way to slingshot yourself into serious map presence, and they're basically necessary if you want to win the game. Make it clear that it's normal to take out a loan three or even four times over the course of the game. Holy poo poo, really? We've played only three times but the most loans I've seen taken out by a player is two (usually it's one). It's a game where everyone gets the same number of actions and turns, so taking a loan you don't need to take I think is a big handicap because it burns a turn you could otherwise use to make points, but maybe we're too cautious?
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Jan 22, 2020 05:15
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If you're only taking one loan a game you're probably spending too many other actions on money-generating stuff that isn't so hot for points.
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Jan 22, 2020 05:29
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If I may ask, what kind of point totals do you get? Our last game was 4p; ending ~150 with a 7 point spread between the three leaders while the newbie trailed by about 20.
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Jan 22, 2020 05:35
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Yoshi Wins posted:I played Brass: Birmingham for the first time last weekend. I liked it. I think I'll try to play again soon. It's almost always a good idea to take a loan on your first or second turn. Wild cards should only ever be taken as a last resort, but they aren't as bad a choice as they are in Brass Lancs. Laying down as many links as possible toward the end of an age usually pays off in Brum (Lancs has much tougher route restrictions). Plan to have very quick access to coal at the beginning of the Rail Age.
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Jan 22, 2020 06:11
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Impermanent posted:I'll tolerate a limited amount of strategic whining but I don't do it. In heavy interaction games I'll say things like "david's gonna win, look at him." But I'm not gonna be the guy who goes "really??" when you attack me. I do know guys who say stuff like that but most of them have a specific tone that suggests they're being light-hearted. Joking while whining is the best way to do it. I can tolerate a little bit of negativity too, but I can definitely imagine a point where the whiner's goal is to make people specifically feel bad for slighting them, and that's not cool.
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Jan 22, 2020 06:14
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Thanks for the tips, folks!
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Jan 22, 2020 06:28
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My MLK gaming involved The Mind, Crossing, and Mansions of Madness, 2nd Edition. Also involved not playing Firefly with the next table over, which was the right choice. The Mind and Crossing are both excellent filler games, in their own very different ways. Crossing is exactly the right kind of dumb fun that you can explain in ten seconds and finish in ten minutes, and The Mind is a really odd co-op game of Chicken. Getting to try out Mansions of Madness was a blast, even with just the introductory scenario. I ran the app on my tablet, and cast it to the TV in the room, which really helped with usability, everyone could just tell me what they wanted to do. The app lets you get away with shockingly little rules overhead, for how much STUFF and SYSTEMS the game has, and the game moves really fast, even when something happens like everyone having to make a horror check. I can definitely see myself tracking down the expansions(and an extra set of dice) after my main group has gone through all the scenarios in the base box.
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Jan 22, 2020 06:39
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Jabor posted:If you're only taking one loan a game you're probably spending too many other actions on money-generating stuff that isn't so hot for points. Are you talking about loan actions, or loan amounts? Keep in mind that Brass: Lanc has the ability to take loans for 10/20/30 pounds, but Brass: Birm can only take a 30 pound loan, and that Brim doesn't award VPs for left over money at the end. I'm assuming the advice is to take 30 pounds in loans, not 90 to 120. Ubik_Lives fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 07:14
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CommonShore posted:18xx is the best also for table talk because nobody can read the board state and everyone just makes train noises all game silvergoose posted:Choo choo, motherfucker CommonShore posted::beatboxes the theme to thomas the tank engine: Wow I didn’t know you two were in my 18xx group
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Jan 22, 2020 07:14
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Ubik_Lives posted:Are you talking about loan actions, or loan amounts? Keep in mind that Brass: Lanc has the ability to take loans for 10/20/30 pounds, but Brass: Birm can only take a 30 pound loan, and that Brim doesn't award VPs for left over money at the end. I'm assuming the advice is to take 30 pounds in loans, not 90 to 120. Never take a loan for less than 30, that's just a wasted action. Taking 4 30 pound loan actions in a game is not crazy, 3 loan actions is fairly common.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:33
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Ubik_Lives posted:Are you talking about loan actions, or loan amounts? Keep in mind that Brass: Lanc has the ability to take loans for 10/20/30 pounds, but Brass: Birm can only take a 30 pound loan, and that Brim doesn't award VPs for left over money at the end. I'm assuming the advice is to take 30 pounds in loans, not 90 to 120. Why would you ever take a less than 30 pound loan?
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Jan 22, 2020 08:33
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What are the key differences between first and second edition of Pax Pamir? I can get the first one cheap.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:44
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Pretty stark. 2E includes elements of the expansion but trims a lot of stuff at the same time. It's more of a sequel than a 2.0 really, if that makes sense. Here's Cole's words on it: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2042772/designer-diary-why-make-second-edition
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Jan 22, 2020 08:58
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Fat Samurai posted:What are the key differences between first and second edition of Pax Pamir? I can get the first one cheap. The victory conditions are quite different, with 1E's being more complex and harder to track. 2E also makes a lot of smaller changes, incorporates some of the content from the Khyber Knives expansion, and has much nicer components. They are quite different while still being broadly the same game.
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Jan 22, 2020 09:01
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PaxPam 1E may be the least comprehensible Pax, and 2E is definitely the most. Night and day difference between the two.
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Jan 22, 2020 09:56
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Also I played Brass Brum yesterday and the host kept up a constant chorus of "and did you discard to 6, and then draw two more" and it was pretty much always warranted.
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Jan 22, 2020 10:32
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taser rates posted:That just sounds like people weren't actually paying attention to the totality of the game state, which seems like an equally hollow victory to me. You can't be 100% aware of the situation unless a game is a perfect information abstract, and even then it's only objectively true in a 2-player game. The more players you introduced the fuzzier the logic gets between players. The only correct action in this scenario is to abstain, just not play the game, but a good multiplayer game forces every decision to make a meaningful impact on the game state. This is to say the my opponents made the right choice: exclude me from the trade. That leaves the problem of 3 other players needing to decide the best distribution of resources among themselves. One of them was in the 2nd best position to win but that information was obfuscated through their manipulation. Once you see the error it's too late to counter it.
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Jan 22, 2020 10:34
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Yoshi Wins posted:I played Brass: Birmingham for the first time last weekend. I liked it. I think I'll try to play again soon. Remember the C3I3B3 "rule of fuel": closest connected coal, iron is independent, beer's a bit of both. If you're talking strategy, then you want to network to the places where people are shipping from. Income is nowhere near as good as cash right now, even if in the long term it will make you more money. Taking the loan action may seem like a waste of half a turn, but it is an action that costs no money - which means you will act earlier on the next turn. The Loan/Ship combo is amazing for this as it both gives you cash to spend while you're first to act and restores the lost income before you receive any penalty. I always try to build a coal mine of at least level 2 during the Canal Era, so that it is available for immediate use in the Rail Era. You can do this quite late, but if you do it early and other players use your coal then you smile, score your mine twice and build the next level mine with the money they just gave you.
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Jan 22, 2020 10:38
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Thanks. I'll probably wait for a reprint, then. I think there was one planned for early 2020? Got excited reading the Oath articles, but decided that it wasn't good solo or 2 players, which is most of my gaming.
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Jan 22, 2020 11:10
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Fat Samurai posted:Thanks. I'll probably wait for a reprint, then. I think there was one planned for early 2020? Got excited reading the Oath articles, but decided that it wasn't good solo or 2 players, which is most of my gaming. Last I heard the reprint would be offered as an add-on in the KS campaign for John Company 2nd Ed. Think it's due to launch sometime around March? Good news is since its a straight reprint they're saying it'll ship sometime late Summer.
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Jan 22, 2020 11:53
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Fat Samurai posted:Thanks. I'll probably wait for a reprint, then. I think there was one planned for early 2020? Got excited reading the Oath articles, but decided that it wasn't good solo or 2 players, which is most of my gaming. I'm currently backing Oath but I'm wavering on whether to keep it or drop it since I shouldn't really get all 3. I think JoCo and PaxPam are likely to be better games but I imagine Oath will be an easier sell to friends.
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Jan 22, 2020 12:18
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Lampsacus posted:He would move players pieces back if he thought there was a better move. This, this is justification for murder.
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Jan 22, 2020 12:44
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Lord Of Texas posted:This, this is justification for murder. That's too extreme I think, just cut his hands off.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:00
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Mr. Squishy posted:Also I played Brass Brum yesterday and the host kept up a constant chorus of "and did you discard to 6, and then draw two more" and it was pretty much always warranted. This is what I do in a lot of games. "And that card goes here, and discard, and make sure you get that income coin." repeat every single turn
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Jan 22, 2020 13:24
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It's stories like the moving other people's pieces guy that remind me I'm pretty lucky to have a solid group of people to play with who would never do something like that. Whenever I start thinking people are being a bit Draconian with their table standards I remember that people like that exist and it blows my mind every time.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:25
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Redundant posted:I remember that people like that exist and it blows my mind every time. Either I'm abnormally lucky with my gaming partner selection, or those people have working survival instincts.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:29
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Touching people's pieces is verboten. We like to analyze every move like an anime fight scene but touching pieces without express permission is like sticking your fingers in someone's food.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:33
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I had a guy at a public meetup blow up on me because I hadn't explicitly told him that you could do the same move twice in T&E (having given him no indication that this was not allowed before). He asked me to ask someone else to adjudicate the rule for me.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:50
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