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Ragnar34 posted:It was only a joke that Injuns are a bunch of thieving drunks, so we're supposed to ignore it. https://twitter.com/jtcoops/status/958141175516495872 In context the joke is totally benign. Do you have any better evidence of Peterson's supposed white nationalism?
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Jan 30, 2018 21:58
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Schmischmenjamin posted:https://twitter.com/jtcoops/status/958141175516495872 Uh, no, that doesn't make it any better
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Jan 30, 2018 22:00
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No, see this racist joke was only a racist joke.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:02
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Wow, that's a level of storytelling matched only by my lies and justifications when I was in elementary school.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:12
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even if all the other bad stuff wasn't true about him he's inarguably a global warming denier and that's enough reason to hate him having any kind of platform. and people who are global warming deniers tend not to just be cool guys outside of it. tends to be a constellation of beliefs attached.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:24
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Schmischmenjamin posted:He made a dumb joke. It takes more than that for me to tar someone as more racist than your average idiot. Yeah this is getting kind of sad. It sucks when someone you like/respect turns out to be a dumb piece of poo poo but it’s better to own up to it. I used to think, as a young teenager, that Penn Jillette was amazing and preaching truth to the idiots, mainly because of his Bullshit! series he had on Showtime. He’s fairly eloquent and presented things in a humorous, but intellectually couched, fashion. Turns out he’s just dead wrong about a lot of things and was pushing a lot of junk ideas (environmentalism is pointless/global warming is up for debate, second hand smoke isn’t carcinogenic, etc.). In hindsight he was just a blowhard who could speak to intellectual leaning, but not fully informed people effectively. Peterson seems to be of a similar vein, but actually worse. From the article you just posted: ”The Guardian” posted:Peterson, 55, is a psychology professor at the University of Toronto who shot into the headlines in 2016 after refusing to use gender-neutral pronouns at the university which new legislation, Bill C-16, compelled him legally to. Following this he was either hailed as a free-speech martyr or castigated as a transphobe. Demonstrations broke out on campus, and he has been the subject of a campaign of protest by trans activists. More controversy followed when he publicly defended James Damore, the sacked Google employee who suggested there were innate gender differences, as being no more than the scientific consensus. That whole thing is... pretty bad. For starters, he is a religious zealot who couches his pro-Christian kindergarten level “philosophy” as being an academic endeavor borne out by the facts of history and social sciences. Amazing coincidence that his “research” led him to the conclusion that Christianity saved the world and makes people better and that our collective abandonment of God has made everyone for the worse. The whole thing is complete bullshit when you look into him for more than two minutes and don’t assume that he is arguing honestly or even trying to argue in good faith. You’re attempted defenses of this asshat have had the opposite intended effect. I didn’t know much of anything about this guy beyond a couple headlines, and now I think, because of your sources and arguments, that he’s a grifter and a demagogue. Luckily I’m a nerd so I’ve read and taken classes into sociology, philosophy, and religion so his schtick didn’t work on me. For people who haven’t sunk hundreds of hours into academic reading, Peterson has a strong truthiness quality to his ramblings. For those who have he comes off as an uninformed blowhard, at best, and a bigot if you stop giving him so much leeway. Seriously take a step back from his academic jargon and look at what he himself has been saying. Peterson has been defending horrible people and horrible ideas. His argument that “The West” is the only place that ever figured out individual sovereignty is complete nonsense, and ties heavily into his promotion and defense of bigotry. tl:dr Peterson is a hack who is an Evangelical-esque Christian zealot trying to defend his racism, sexism, and xenophobia with nonsense written in academic jargon. Seriously that guardian article did not paint him in the light you thought it did.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:26
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Schmischmenjamin posted:https://twitter.com/jtcoops/status/958141175516495872 Are you Jordan Peterson?
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Jan 30, 2018 22:27
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peterson thinks atheists are using christian morals when they're against murder.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:peterson thinks atheists are using christian morals when they're against murder. Duh. No one has any reason not to kill people unless they fear eternal punishment for it. We possess no actual morals. This is totally a principle that that Jesus guy wanted to teach us.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:31
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RasperFat posted:You’re attempted defenses of this asshat have had the opposite intended effect. I didn’t know much of anything about this guy beyond a couple headlines, and now I think, because of your sources and arguments, that he’s a grifter and a demagogue. Bingo. Schmischmenjamin, thanks for effectively turning me off Peterson! Great job!
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Jan 30, 2018 22:32
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On top of all the other things already posted for why Peterson is dumb garbage, he’s overtly transphobic. Anybody defending Peterson at this point is willfully a dumbass or agrees with his garbage opinions.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:20
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Groovelord Neato posted:peterson thinks atheists are using christian morals when they're against murder. Why is it even Christian morals? Why not Islamic or Judaic morals?
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Jan 30, 2018 23:25
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RasperFat posted:Yeah this is getting kind of sad. It sucks when someone you like/respect turns out to be a dumb piece of poo poo but it’s better to own up to it. sounds about right. he is just obsticating his right leaning "cultural Christianity will save the west and go back to basics" bullshit with philosophical musings and misusing terms. i am not a philosophy major, but i have read enough ye old christian apologetic(good and bad) in history classes to know one when i see one.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:27
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RasperFat posted:Yeah this is getting kind of sad. It sucks when someone you like/respect turns out to be a dumb piece of poo poo but it’s better to own up to it. And man is that list growing long. Al Franken, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Dustin Hoffman...going back...Bill Clinton, Michael Jackson, Mick Jagger and Woody Allen. I find myself lately really having a hard time separating the person from their art (or athletic accomplishments) and notice that I struggle enjoying entertainment that I used to revel in because of the reality it conjures. I suppose it's growth on a certain level but I have to admit it hurts and, even weirder, I find myself wondering what kind of horrible poo poo is going to come out on people I really admire. I'm scared to like anybody and worry a lot about how these sorts of accusations will become weaponized. Can of worms for sure, but women CAN lie about this poo poo. I know from personal experience.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:29
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Lightning Knight posted:On top of all the other things already posted for why Peterson is dumb garbage, he’s overtly transphobic. yeah lying about a law "forcing" people to use preferred pronounces is how he got his following not any of this self actualization poo poo.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:30
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Mr Interweb posted:Why is it even Christian morals? Why not Islamic or Judaic morals? because he thinks christianty is better and it has led the west to enlightenment. alot of these guys jerk off to "cultural Christianity" because they miss the gilded age when all that poo poo was invented. yeah western art did come out of the church(patronage, subjects) but europe only flourished once humanism and then the enlightenment hit.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:30
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BiggerBoat posted:And man is that list growing long. thats why i am happy most of the people i admire/like are dead. its easier to separate their awfulness and the good poo poo to an extent. when you take history as major, you learn everyone is poo poo(either by our time or both ours and theres) to an extent. and you learn from both the bad and the good.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:33
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STAC Goat posted:Duh. No one has any reason not to kill people unless they fear eternal punishment for it. We possess no actual morals. This is totally a principle that that Jesus guy wanted to teach us. "I would totally rape and kill innocent people if it wasn't for the fact that I'm scared to suffer eternal torment" - a good person
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Jan 30, 2018 23:36
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BiggerBoat posted:And man is that list growing long. Michael Jackson was framed to hide all the real sex criminals in Hollywood.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:48
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I feel like my every post is read in the worst possible light, and it's starting to make me sad and frustrated, so I'm going to try to wrap this digression up if it's okay with all of you. I've been on both sides of enough "Guy We All Agree Is Wrong" pig-piles to know this particular internet forum script, and I recognize that we're not getting anywhere. I would love to talk more to any of you on an individual level if you PM me. RasperFat, I appreciate your gentle condescension. That sounds sarcastic but it's not. It was the kindest path available to you, and I thank you for taking it. Mr Interweb, Groovelord Neato, and STAC Knight, I would particularly love to talk more to you folks about Christianity in PMs if you're interested, or in a more appropriate thread. Groovelord Neato, you have one of the best usernames I've seen in 18 years of habitual forum browsing. I'm not trying to convince anyone to suck Jordan Peterson off as much as I do. My self-worth does not rest on whether or not anybody here agrees with me on one YouTube weirdo, nor does my respect for any of you as fellow human beings. I only hope to make you empathize, even for a moment, with the average self-hating basement-dwelling nazi-sympathizing nascent white supremacist /pol/ user who, detestable as his beliefs are, also deserves to be thought of as a fellow human being, and for whom Jordan Peterson might just provide a path away from groupthink extremism and toward individual flourishing. Try to imagine the hell this man is in, and listen to Jordan Peterson from that perspective. Or don't. It's fine. Anyway, back on topic, I was listening to my local Catholic radio station earlier and their news affiliate said something to the effect of "Tonight's state of the union will come straight from President Trump's heart." Obviously this is the typical SOTU pre-show, but it's part of a broader pattern I've seen. Christian Americans are splitting on Trump. Most of them tow the party line, but political call-in shows on this same station always have some rumblings about how the president is an obvious lying nihilist who believes in nothing bigger than himself. And I think that viewpoint (i.e., the truth) is going to gain popularity over time. Christians are desperate for any glimmer of hope that Trump is like them, and I for one believe his inevitable failure to continue deceiving them will be the moment American Christianity finally ends its decades-long love affair with the amoral right-wing. It's about time. They're not natural bedfellows. If we're lucky Trump will even speak out against them when they stop carrying that torch for him.
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Jan 30, 2018 23:49
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Schmischmenjamin posted:I only hope to make you empathize, even for a moment, with the average self-hating basement-dwelling nazi-sympathizing nascent white supremacist /pol/ user who, detestable as his beliefs are, also deserves to be thought of as a fellow human being  Won't someone think about the poor nazis I'm not going to empathize with people who are fundamentally dedicated to showing their own lack of empathy with every word they say. It's "tolerate my intolerance" all over again.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:03
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Schmischmenjamin posted:
its cool. but yeah i think you are right. i think we will see a split between believers(people like loving godparents who are super catholic and conservative(pro life and fiscal but pretty socially liberal on most other stuff) and the death cultists(who are either weird psychos or scammers and born again types) people like my god parents won't leave the party, but they hate both sides now and dislike trump and think he is rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:04
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Schmischmenjamin posted:https://twitter.com/jtcoops/status/958141175516495872 here's something that's completely benign: your posting
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Jan 31, 2018 00:06
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Schmischmenjamin posted:I feel like my every post is read in the worst possible light, and it's starting to make me sad and frustrated, so I'm going to try to wrap this digression up if it's okay with all of you. I've been on both sides of enough "Guy We All Agree Is Wrong" pig-piles to know this particular internet forum script, and I recognize that we're not getting anywhere. I would love to talk more to any of you on an individual level if you PM me. shut up jordan
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Jan 31, 2018 00:08
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WampaLord posted:
Do not tolerate their intolerance. Just don't try to argue against their intolerance as though it's a set of positions they've arrived at through rational thought. Recognize their intolerance as the mental health issue that it is. And don't try to rationalize your own refusal to show empathy to a fellow human being by saying "but they did it first." Empathize or disengage. Otherwise you're making things worse. If you want to make things worse go ahead. Phone posted:here's something that's completely benign: your posting thank you
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Jan 31, 2018 00:12
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most of them aren't mentally ill - they're assholes.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:most of them aren't mentally ill - they're assholes. same difference. They're all either paranoid, depressed, or addicted to rage. They're all somewhere on the spectrum between Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:19
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Schmischmenjamin posted:addicted to rage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTycpLXoN90
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Jan 31, 2018 00:21
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Schmischmenjamin posted:Do not tolerate their intolerance. Just don't try to argue against their intolerance as though it's a set of positions they've arrived at through rational thought. Recognize their intolerance as the mental health issue that it is. And don't try to rationalize your own refusal to show empathy to a fellow human being by saying "but they did it first." Empathize or disengage. Otherwise you're making things worse. If you want to make things worse go ahead. I wish them no particular ill will, in that they are humans and I'm not one for pointless suffering. But that doesn't mean I have to listen to their shithead opinions while thoughtfully nodding and going "You know what, all opinions must be respected, you do have some reasonable views about the Jewish Question after all"
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Jan 31, 2018 00:21
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BiggerBoat posted:And man is that list growing long. Judge actions, not people. Admire good accomplishments for their own sake - that was a great thing someone did - and likewise with transgressions - that was a terrible thing someone did.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:22
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WampaLord posted:I wish them no particular ill will, in that they are humans and I'm not one for pointless suffering. But that doesn't mean I have to listen to their shithead opinions while thoughtfully nodding and going "You know what, all opinions must be respected, you do have some reasonable views about the Jewish Question after all"
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Jan 31, 2018 00:25
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Schmischmenjamin posted:Who's making you listen to their shithead opinions? You, who came Kramering into this thread to preach Jordan Peterson like an rear end in a top hat and are now sermonizing at us to please consider the terrible situations of the nazi teens.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:26
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I mean... Teens are stupid. Lots of people change their minds later in life. Shaun & Jen guy put up a YouTube recently talking about how he was a buy-in on anti-feminist tropes and other such nonsense as a teen, and it was exactly in the style that Jordan Peterson appeals to - he was convinced he was smarter than everyone else.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:55
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a lot of these alt-right youtubers and tweeters are post-college age. there's no excuse a lot of us grew out of it.
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Jan 31, 2018 00:57
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WampaLord posted:You, who came Kramering into this thread to preach Jordan Peterson like an rear end in a top hat and are now sermonizing at us to please consider the terrible situations of the nazi teens. this dude Kramered in to defend the nazi punks and hasn't yet hosed off
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Jan 31, 2018 01:57
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I empathize with Nazi fuckbois and feel bad for them and they also should be punched until they either get over themselves or they’re too afraid to be Nazis in public. gently caress Nazis. Making them not Nazis is not the job of random strangers on the internet and it certainly isn’t the job of people Nazis want to kill. Also gently caress off with your “why won’t you just be reasonable on the internet about being nicer to Nazis, thread?” schtick, it’s loving goddamn annoying.
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Jan 31, 2018 02:00
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I do my best to empathize with everyone, so I do empathize with neo-Nazis. I wouldn’t be comfortable accepting violence against anyone I didn’t empathize with. I understand the alt-right and accept them as my equals, because we’re all humans trying to do what we think is best; it just happens that we disagree about what’s best. I am not inherently better than Dickie Spencer, and it’s great when he gets punched in the face. I didn’t know who this Jordan Peterson dude was before this, but given that his original claim to fame was apparently pitching a fit over pronouns I’m not super inclined to say I like his worldview.
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Jan 31, 2018 02:05
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i am inherently better than every nazi that ever lived, lives, or will live.
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Jan 31, 2018 02:06
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Schmischmenjamin posted:
Here is the part you are fundamentally failing to understand. Jordan Peterson is not providing a path away from groupthink- he is providing a path towards a specific groupthink that he has set up a grift operation to profit off of. That's it. You are quite correct about the people that Jordan Peterson is speaking to and the ways in which he is reaching his audience. What you are misunderstanding is both his motivations for doing so and the reasons most of his audience are listening to him. This is a con man working an emotional grift- he just so happens to have gussied his snakeoil up in the flowery language of academia. He is a reactionary telling people that the way forwards is to make everything they way they used to be back during a (largely fictionalized) golden age Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 02:36
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Dapper_Swindler posted:When you take history as major, you learn everyone is poo poo(either by our time or both ours and theres) to an extent. and you learn from both the bad and the good. Understood but any explanation that starts with "were all sinners" usually leads me to places I don't like. By that I mean conservative christians.
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Jan 31, 2018 02:46
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