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How about this: No minimum wage. $15? No. $7.75? No. You get only what you negotiate for. In exchange, we have a basic guaranteed income of $15/hour, adjusted up as needed per region. Take the onus of survival away from the employment arrangement.
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Oct 3, 2018 19:41
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DrNutt posted:I hate those things for revealing how insanely petty people can be when they want their num nums and they want them now. it's me. i want my nums nums. especially when i'm stressed out, and forget to thaw out the chicken breast and think about that while i'm driving by the fast-food chain.... maybe i drive by 2 or more on the way home in congested traffic at 5pm. 'oh just this one time.... right?' that line is just enough signal to reset whatever lizard instinct towards delayed-gratification, as i can say to myself 'why the gently caress are you waiting to be served food shittier than what you have at home? are you really this lazy?'. i can't imagine these large companies haven't studied this type of psychology endlessly. like that whole reasoning behind mcdonald's using the color red and yellow to signal your unconscious mind. here's the first google link i could find regarding something as simple as color being a subconscious signaling mechanism abused by marketeers. you (the royal you obviously) may think you are above this, but so what? there's millions who aren't. i'm sure there's a much, much better source than this but i tried googling for like ~5 minutes to find the specific article i read connected to a book about how advertising/marketing research money is spent discovering this poo poo. https://medium.com/@ashley_howell/understanding-colour-psychology-for-restaurants-brands-dbb7ffbcecae
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Oct 3, 2018 19:47
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Golbez posted:How about this: No minimum wage. $15? No. $7.75? No. You get only what you negotiate for. Sounds like a hell of a deal for businesses. I mean, it'd save Walmart at least 5 billion a year alone, given that's what they estimated it would cost to bring up their workers to $15 an hour. I'm all for taxes paying for social services, but subsidizing labor like that is just going to accelerate wealth condensing in the upper echelons unless we are going to start actually forcing business to pay the equivalent in taxes.
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Oct 3, 2018 20:04
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Sounds like a hell of a deal for businesses. I mean, it'd save Walmart at least 5 billion a year alone, given that's what they estimated it would cost to bring up their workers to $15 an hour. You'd need a big stick to hit the businesses with to prevent all wages <$15/hr just becoming $0.01/hr because there is no difference to the employee.
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Oct 3, 2018 20:08
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Yup. Almost like there's a huge disparity of power in negotiating wages in late-stage capitalism. 
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Oct 3, 2018 20:11
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Yup. Almost like there's a huge disparity of power in negotiating wages in late-stage capitalism. Is it really that much greater a disparity than has existed in the past prior to the 1900's?
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Oct 3, 2018 20:13
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Depends on where in the world we're talking, but 'compares favorably to open debt slavery or serfdom' is not a ringing endorsement.
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Oct 3, 2018 20:15
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baquerd posted:Is it really that much greater a disparity than has existed in the past prior to the 1900's? IMO the disparity in power nowadays is way more due to indoctrination. like people still have the technical ability to just... not show up for work. but workers nowadays live in an entirely alien, 21st century media landscape that shapes people motivations & desires. i'm sure someone can articulate this better than me but i just wanted to express that the language of 'power disparity' can send the discussion into smuggo territory pretty quickly without taking that into account. oh and there's way more people now, and basically an entire population of ghost-unemployed that are scraping by due to various means-tested assistance programs. so if there was some crazy unionization action attempted, employers could just wait for applications from people who are required by law to send out applications less they lose their benefits. edit: i can't imagine this ever happening. because a labor movement that massive encompassing the number of jobs necessary just seems impossible to fathom. edit: for reference, the various U-X's. to make the economy look fantastic every administration just focuses on the U-3 i believe. https://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 20:23
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Golbez posted:How about this: No minimum wage. $15? No. $7.75? No. You get only what you negotiate for. How the hell would we ever pay for something like that? That's $31,200 per person, or over $7.3 trillion if you apply this to everyone over 18. Not to mention the amount of people who would just straight up leave the workforce and survive on the government benefit alone.
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Oct 3, 2018 21:39
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Bird in a Blender posted:How the hell would we ever pay for something like that? That's $31,200 per person, or over $7.3 trillion if you apply this to everyone over 18. Not to mention the amount of people who would just straight up leave the workforce and survive on the government benefit alone. Easy, we expropriate the ill-gotten gains of the top 20% richest Americans as stimulus and socialize the future value created by formerly private enterprise so as to benefit all, equally by taxing the pre-shared profits of worker owned firms to provide basic necessities such as education, housing, and healthcare with the remainder being UBI
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Oct 3, 2018 21:45
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baquerd posted:This is an interesting take. What is the real impact though? Obviously, for a small town in isolation, jobs have been lost. Just as obviously, across the nation, employment by the chain is increased. Can we draw conclusions about overall employment numbers of retail employees based on this though? Are these jobs being taken from competing businesses in some fashion, possibly mitigating or even reversing the overall job growth at a national level? Mcdonalds specifically being a huge chain is a net negative on humanity, I'm sure. The larger point is that if you replace jobs it can lead to more jobs if the replaced jobs were a bottleneck in the operation of the company.
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Oct 3, 2018 21:45
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Bird in a Blender posted:How the hell would we ever pay for something like that? That's $31,200 per person, or over $7.3 trillion if you apply this to everyone over 18. Not to mention the amount of people who would just straight up leave the workforce and survive on the government benefit alone. Oh no, not that, anything but that. Whatever could we do with all those stay-at-home parents, volunteers, artists, and students, if they aren't justifying the continuance of their existence in front of a fryolator?
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Oct 3, 2018 21:54
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baquerd posted:You'd need a big stick to hit the businesses with to prevent all wages <$15/hr just becoming $0.01/hr because there is no difference to the employee. Why? If they want to pay $0.01/hour, let them. Why would anyone take that? Why would they work somewhere for a sub-1% increase in their income? Once they no longer *have* to take lovely jobs, the pay will have to rise to a level where people will *want* to. Bonus: automation no longer fucks over workers!
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Oct 3, 2018 21:56
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Golbez posted:Why? If they want to pay $0.01/hour, let them. Why would anyone take that? Why would they work somewhere for a sub-1% increase in their income? It's not the lovely jobs that would pay that, except to undocumented immigrants. It's the remotely desirable ones.
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Oct 3, 2018 22:00
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Golbez posted:Why? If they want to pay $0.01/hour, let them. Why would anyone take that? Why would they work somewhere for a sub-1% increase in their income? My interpretation of what you said was that the government pays everyone the difference between their wage and $15/hr, but now I'm thinking you are saying that the government pays an extra $15/hr? Edit: the core of the issue I have with your proposal is that it is tied to hours worked for some company. This is utterly prone to exploitation by all sides involved. UBI cannot be tied to performance, there be dragons (and bureaucracy). baquerd fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 22:53
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Seeing the devolution of late-stage capitalism has really made me see something that I had never seen before. I've been increasingly sceptical of, then outright venomous towards, capitalism for a long time, but just recently I've started to see the cracks in the very concept of money. I don't mean the idea of fait currency - I'm not some closet racist END THE FED!! Ron Paul supporter - but just money in general. As another goon pointed out to me, money works very well with scarce resources, but is terrible when things are in abundance. Most of the developed world easily has the food to feed everyone and the shelter to house everyone, but simply doesn't care to. Notice that I said most... I am fully aware of the housing shortage in my native UK due to, you guessed it, government cuts and a lack of private investment in creating affordable housing because it doesn't have a high enough ROI. In any event, a society can have an abundance of practical resources but if all of the money, which has no practical value, just exchange value, is concentrated among a small portion of the population, people will starve despite an overproduction of food. For example, say that there's some rich fuckwad who only eats very posh food like lobster, caviar, and wine that costs thousands per bottle. Even if that prick is a huge glutton, he can only consume so much and certainly can't deprive of food by eating everything himself a rather poor person who eats macaroni cheese, breakfast cereal, ham sandwiches and a bit of fast food. But, if that same rich douchebag employs that poor person and keeps the vast majority of the value generated by the labour of his workers and pays this poor bugger a sub-living wage, he'll still struggle to feed himself despite a glut of food and a practical limit to how much people can eat in a day or a sitting. When one resource, even one with no practical value apart from maybe being used as a bad form of toilet roll, is the universal exchange medium and it's concentrated amongst the very few, need can exist despite abundance. While I appreciate legit concerns about paying for a GMI and personally feel that it's trying to plaster over a system that can't sustain itself, the simple fact is that the developed world has, for the most part, the ability to provide a dignified existence to its citizens and simply doesn't because a very small group of sociopaths has it all and always wants more. When there is a surplus of food and a surplus of housing and people are still hungry and homeless, there's no excuse for it and I'm sick and bloody tired of people trying to defend the indefensible.
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Oct 3, 2018 23:07
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That's still just a capitalism problem rather than an inherent problem with money
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Oct 3, 2018 23:16
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im depressed lol posted:IMO the disparity in power nowadays is way more due to indoctrination. like people still have the technical ability to just... not show up for work. I do not follow how this is so. Perhaps 1900 man could leave lovely factory all he wanted, but still he would need to eat and sleep and there weren't many better option. im depressed lol posted:edit: for reference, the various U-X's. to make the economy look fantastic every administration just focuses on the U-3 i believe. I do not see problem with use of that U3? In general way more people are forced to be employed or looking for work in these times than there should be. Because of low wages, high expenses, unreliability of job. Even the framing of population as "labor force" i feel it is bad and out of date. We do not live in world that need mass grunt labor in the fields and workhouses anymore. JustJeff88 posted:As another goon pointed out to me, money works very well with scarce resources, but is terrible when things are in abundance. This is such bullshit, unless you mean Star Trek singularity abundance where everyone has free device that can construct 99% of thing you could ever want or need.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:12
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:I do not follow how this is so. Perhaps 1900 man could leave lovely factory all he wanted, but still he would need to eat and sleep and there weren't many better option. the 1900s man was also way more amenable to the idea of unionization and collective action, as it's 1900 and the 20th century's various indoctrination campaigns coached in an effort to fight communism have not taken a hold of the public's psyche. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:I do not see problem with use of that U3? In general way more people are forced to be employed or looking for work in these times than there should be. Because of low wages, high expenses, unreliability of job. Even the framing of population as "labor force" i feel it is bad and out of date. We do not live in world that need mass grunt labor in the fields and workhouses anymore. the problem.... is exactly what you said. it side-steps the issue by ignoring people who have been unemployed for more than... what is 18 months? so it seems like there is not much of an employment issue, in the post you were responding to: an entire population of ghost-unemployed that are scraping by due to various means-tested assistance programs. so if there was some crazy unionization action attempted, employers could just wait for applications from people who are required by law to send out applications less they lose their benefits. edit: i can't imagine this ever happening. because a labor movement that massive encompassing the number of jobs necessary just seems impossible to fathom. 'means-tested' vs. 'non-means-tested' is a result of an american interpretation of fairness, which typically comes from a desire to make people suffer the ways they're familiar with rather than saying 'say, i deserve that too'. as to get the assistance package to pass in a statehouse, a politician has to be able to say to his constituency "AND NO ONE IS GOING TO CHEAT THEIR WAY OUT OF THIS, IF YOU RECEIVE ASSISTANCE YOU HAVE TO APPLY FOR WORK" to get the political will to pass anything at all. but, again, this creates a pool of potential labor that is dependent upon applying for jobs.... which could be jobs vacated by striking employees. and of course they don't have to apply for the job, but then their means-tested benefits are rescinded. i hope that's easy to follow and if i'm wrong about this i'd like to know. Edit: VVVVVVVVVVVVV this. THIS im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 00:30
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baquerd posted:My interpretation of what you said was that the government pays everyone the difference between their wage and $15/hr, but now I'm thinking you are saying that the government pays an extra $15/hr? No? The opposite, I want it to be guaranteed regardless of employment. Where did I say it was conditional? Did I use the wrong term between basic and guaranteed, because I know they have different meanings.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:34
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QuarkJets posted:That's still just a capitalism problem rather than an inherent problem with money if you split straws endlessly you're not going to solve anything. money as a technology needs to be examined for what it is supposed to do, what it is actually, and how it can be improved. as an exercise, when you wake up tomorrow... write down every time throughout the day you use a metaphor/simile with money. we can't even come up with solutions for climate change without invoking the language. it's so ingrained to our vocabulary e.g. carbon budget. you may think this is something easy to parse... obvious, but this concept is beyond-difficult to explain to people who have lived their entire lives basically understanding money equates to success/housing/food/status. etc. and these are the people with whom you must convince, in a manner they understand and actually makes sense to them, without resulting to ad hominem attacks as you high-five another internet socialist over how indoctrinated the average person is. "yes i will listen to your words regarding destroying what i consider to be the foundation of my existence." the woman says as she has put up with going to a job she hates for 30 years, terrified of leaving due to employer-tied health insurance and not being able to afford her daughters medication without it. she is going to totally buy into a radical disassembly of everything she knows and what sustains her current way of life. after all, she has all the time in the world to understand this. is this fiction what everyone who is aware of the problem (money as technology), thinks will work? like is there just general ignorance among leftists, who refuse to acknowledge we live in a world that has demonized collective action in the interests of the west in the hyper-polarized, black-or-white cold war? the echoes of that propaganda endlessly reverberate in 2018 still despite declarations of the west having 'won' almost 30 years ago. to 'win' that war the west painted the enemy in the worst possible light, and you can say this was evil/reprehensible whatever... but their actions were the actions they took in what they believed to be the interests of the united states and the 'free' world. because there were subversive elements being funded by the soviet union to shake up the social order in the united states. just as the united states responded in kind. acknowledgement of the past does not condone it. if you blame the problems of the world on capitalism as your boogeyman, you'll just get the problems imposed by soviet communism as a response. i don't have an answer to this. but it's a problem, got dang it bobby.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:34
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baquerd posted:I'm trying to explain this behavior, do you have other possibilities to add to the below? It’s none of those. They recently expanded their cafe menu to include items that require more prep work than the hot dogs and pizza slices (like cheeseburgers for instance) and so as a result, the cashiers who are some of the same labor who prepares the food have to leave the register to put the order together. They can’t add more bodies behind the counter without renovating the cafe to be 2x bigger than it is. As a further result, lines started piling up at the cafe and it became a logistical challenge to physically get your purchase out of the store if you wanted to skip the cafe. Also note that the lines are full of people who have staged their cart somewhere nearby which furthers the congestion. Now all of that is solved and the same # of people are employed as before.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:36
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im depressed lol posted:if you blame the problems of the world on capitalism as your boogeyman, you'll just get the problems imposed by soviet communism as a response. i don't have an answer to this. but it's a problem, got dang it bobby. Definitely the only two options, USSR or capitalism.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:38
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OwlFancier posted:Definitely the only two options, USSR or capitalism. More correctly, capitalism or capitalism
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Oct 4, 2018 00:39
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OwlFancier posted:Definitely the only two options, USSR or capitalism. no grey allowed in discussion. edit: upon re-reading my phrasing could be interpreted as saying this acceptable discourse. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE DISCOURSE. my meaning is: "if you just shorthand say 'capitalism is bad', people without an understanding of alternatives will black&white think 'you are soviet'" which i hoped was cleared from the context of the previous paraphraphs. im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 00:41
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HEY NONG MAN posted:It’s none of those. They could also sell food cards at the checkout that sends it over to the cafe so they have a 2-3 minute headstart on prep before you're done checking out. Like laminated ones like ice UPCs in grocery store or whatever, but then people would forget poo poo or want to change something, nevermind, just set up kiosks all over the store and you pick up a tracking bracelt when you come in and they just track you down when your food in ready in whatever isle you're in.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:42
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My absolute favorite thing about eating at that cafe is that they just cram a bunch of tiny picnic tables together and say “have at it”. You’re elbow to elbow with whoever is hungry.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:44
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im depressed lol posted:exactly. that's the crux. the polarization. the black&white thinking. I mean, "capitalism is the problem" does not imply "USSR is the solution" and hasn't for a long time, if ever. There are plenty of different proposed solutions to the problems of capitalism but that's not really a reason to misidentify the problem.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:45
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This dude is fundamentally assuming that left wing concepts are too complicated to the point where his own example of a lady who is exploited won't naturally begin to resent the situation and be open to alternatives, which is mostly how it happens sans chud-brain Is he really saying that leftists should give up because there's push back because we have it super easy compared to activists of the past, who were literally hunted and killed/jailed If the world that he paints is correct then leftist messages wouldn't be resonating with people, but they are, so something is wrong with your post
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Oct 4, 2018 00:45
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The working class, famously incapable of grasping critiques of the thing they're intimately familiar with; their work environment and relationship with their employer.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:47
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Phi230 posted:This dude is fundamentally assuming that left wing concepts are too complicated to the point where his own example of a lady who is exploited won't naturally begin to resent the situation and be open to alternatives, which is mostly how it happens sans chud-brain edit: upon re-reading my phrasing could be interpreted as saying this acceptable discourse. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE DISCOURSE. my meaning is: "if you just shorthand say 'capitalism is bad', people without an understanding of alternatives will black&white think 'you are soviet'" which i hoped was cleared from the context of the previous paragraphs, describing the cold war. OwlFancier posted:I mean, "capitalism is the problem" does not imply "USSR is the solution" and hasn't for a long time, if ever. There are plenty of different proposed solutions to the problems of capitalism but that's not really a reason to misidentify the problem. the problem is black and white discourse and the lack of nuance. of course there are a million ways the world could operate. but try getting the average person to name more than one. and the only example they'll give you is communism vs. capitalism. im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 00:49
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I mean if you go around trying to reinforce that notion possibly but reactionary old farts who buy 50 year old US propaganda probably aren't the target demographic for left wing agitprop.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:52
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OwlFancier posted:I mean if you go around trying to reinforce that notion possibly but reactionary old farts who buy 50 year old US propaganda probably aren't the target demographic for left wing agitprop. my intent is to frame this in a historical context, and why americans are very much this-or-that. obviously a child isn't going to be dissuaded from socialism because of a red-scare movie from the 50s. but the child is growing up in a media landscape informed by this. so of course it's relevant.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:56
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im depressed lol posted:the problem is black and white discourse and the lack of nuance. of course there are a million ways the world could operate. but try getting the average person to name more than one. and the only example they'll give you is communism vs. capitalism. What is this weird place you live filled with "average people"? If you ask that question you'll get countless answers. I would suggest that a very large plurality if not outright majority don't have a technical understanding of either of those concepts much less jump to them as their go to idea of world shaping ideas. And within the people who do, I very much doubt that a lot of people born in the last 40 years will assume communism = the USSR, the USSR hasn't existed in the better part of 30 years and even then leftist thought has been concerned with quite different things than how do do USSR2.0. im depressed lol posted:my intent is to frame this in a historical context, and why americans are very much this-or-that. obviously a child isn't going to be dissuaded from socialism because of a red-scare movie from the 50s. People are growing up and have been living for a long time with the effects of a capital-dominated society and that has very material effects on their life, working and otherwise. Hollering about the USSR is completely loving stupid to dissuade people living with poo poo pay and poo poo working environments and poo poo healthcare and poo poo everything else, when the USSR hasn't existed in their lifetimes, and the people giving them alternatives aren't even beginning to suggest that it's at all relevant to their situation. The modern left: "Hey you know unionization and collective effort could help turn the tables on your employer and get you better conditions, because they won't give you it out of kindness! You've got a lot in common with your fellow workers." You: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SOVIETS????? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 00:57
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OwlFancier posted:
you are aware i am not promoting capitalism or the ussr, and that you are doing exactly what i said is the problem? right?
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Oct 4, 2018 01:03
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im depressed lol posted:you are aware i am not promoting capitalism or the ussr, and that you are doing exactly what i said is the problem? right? You're really not making a lot of sense either way to be honest.
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Oct 4, 2018 01:06
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Phi230 posted:This dude is fundamentally assuming that left wing concepts are too complicated to the point where his own example of a lady who is exploited won't naturally begin to resent the situation and be open to alternatives, which is mostly how it happens sans chud-brain donald trump is the president of the united states and bernie sanders is not. bernie sanders should be president. i hope you just read my post quickly and assume i am a capitalist shill. i am encouraging discourse be modified to fit the people i interact with, how they view the world. you may be in an echo chamber and not realize it.
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Oct 4, 2018 01:07
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Mate the whole point of modern leftist approaches is that they focus on people's relationship to their immediate environment, particularly workplace, and this is also the basis of the earliest Marxist critiques of capitalism which is why it's in many ways a step back to traditional labour organizing. You're arguing against something that hasn't been prominent for decades. Nobody thinks a top down USSR style reform is long term viable because they already showed it wasn't.
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Oct 4, 2018 01:11
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OwlFancier posted:Mate the whole point of modern leftist approaches is that they focus on people's relationship to their immediate environment, particularly workplace, and this is also the basis of the earliest Marxist critiques of capitalism which is why it's in many ways a step back to traditional labour organizing. I am extremely furious at the French Utopian Socialists of 1832
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Oct 4, 2018 01:12
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OwlFancier posted:You're really not making a lot of sense either way to be honest.
-i am horrible at posting OwlFancier posted:Mate the whole point of modern leftist approaches is that they focus on people's relationship to their immediate environment, particularly workplace, and this is also the basis of the earliest Marxist critiques of capitalism which is why it's in many ways a step back to traditional labour organizing. please re-read my post. i am saying that the demonized left, as sources as such fox news and various other right wingers demonize the left, give super-easy sound-bytes to their audience to retort to any suggestion of progressive thought. "sociallism? heh, communism didn't work out so for the russia  "
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Oct 4, 2018 01:12
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