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deep dish peat moss posted:Into the Breach is a puzzle game with a tactics game skin. There's almost nothing tactical about it, it's pure deterministic puzzling out the objectively correct action to take. If you think it's the best entry in the tactics game genre it's highly likely that you don't actually like tactical RPGs. Almost all Tactical RPGs work in that exact same way practically-speaking The only difference is that it's hidden from you until you've reverse-engineered how the AI works. Oh sure, they are not fully deterministic like ItB (which is only deterministic on a single-turn basis anyways), but close enough as far as I'm concerned. Aramis fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 19:37
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ITB does have incomplete information though. You can see the attacks enemies are making this upcoming turn so it feels "deterministic" but in actuality the variation is just "what are they going to do the turn after that". There are a lot of situations where it's like "well I can do X which will work to counter the predicted move that I can see, but then if that other enemy does Y next turn then my mech will be out of position to counter that attack." Like if you just treat it as a pure deterministic puzzle where you only ever look at the current turn and never think ahead you'll struggle a lot on the harder difficulties. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 19:38
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Aramis posted:Almost all Tactical RPGs work in that exact same way. The only difference is that it's hidden from you until you've reverse-engineered how the AI works. Oh sure, they are not fully deterministic like ItB (which is only deterministic on a single-turn basis anyways), but close enough as far as I'm concerned.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:39
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Aramis posted:Tactics game tend to cause these kind of reactions because whenever you get your rear end handed to you, you can almost always identify what you could have done to prevent it, and odds are pretty good that you seriously considered doing that very thing. As you get better at anticipating enemy movements, they become a lot more palatable. The "see an enemy's movement range" feature is invariably your best friend. Into the Breach is a puzzle game pretending to be a tactics game. For a game to qualify as tactics game every turn must be at least 20 minutes of movement management, and after combat like 30 minutes of equipment/skill management. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 19:50
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A "tactical RPG" is just a turn-based RPG but you also choose where to move your dudes.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:52
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:ITB does have incomplete information though. You can see the attacks enemies are making this upcoming turn so it feels "deterministic" but in actuality the variation is just "what are they going to do the turn after that". An actual good tactical RPG like e.g. Battle Brothers is fundamentally different in that not only are the enemy actions unpredictable/permutable but so are the results of those actions. You know that a specific enemy unit will be able to reach your archer next turn if you don't move your shieldman into a specific position but then you weigh the benefits of taking that risk against other possible actions. Maybe that orc will decapitate your archer in a single swing, maybe it won't. Is that risk worth taking a chance at the enemy archer as opposed to blocking the orc's movement? You have to weigh that risk against other possible risks, and you can't know ahead of time exactly what will happen on that next turn. Predetermined outcomes are the antithesis of a good strategy game imo. They're about a constant tug-of-war and tension between success and failure, where ITB is just making rote decisions about how to achieve victory. Not saying it's a bad game and I can say why people like it but in the context of actual strategy games it's a predictable snooze. e: And for the record FFT and Fire Emblem wouldn't even be on my list of top 10 strategy/tactics games/series. They're fantasy soldier pokemon games and that's cool and fun but there's very little strategy in them because of how predictable everything is. Fire Emblem is similarly to ITB a puzzle game about figuring out the correct route to take through a mission in order to not lose anyone, and I like it, but it's not a strategy game. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 19:53
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NikkolasKing posted:But stuff like Fire Emblem or FF Tactics are entirely different beasts. I've heard people explaining the "math" of FF Tactics battles and I am like...okay, I just won't be playing that, then. I'll stick to my turn-based or ostensibly turn-based ATB JRPGs, thank you very much. Similarly, I was very relieved when the SMT Devil Survivor games just turned out to be turn-based battles with a field element. That was fine. the only math you need to know about final fantasy tactics is that barehanded attacks with the special monk passive use the formula [phys attack^2] * [2*(brave/100)] (possibly [3*(br/100)])
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Nov 29, 2023 19:54
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Did they ever figure out how to do an FFT type tactics game but against other players? Could that be fun or are crafted mission puzzles designed to be beaten fundamental to the genre?
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Nov 29, 2023 20:15
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Khanstant posted:Did they ever figure out how to do an FFT type tactics game but against other players? Could that be fun or are crafted mission puzzles designed to be beaten fundamental to the genre? Dofus or Wakfu were pvp games weren't they? It's been ages though, could be wrong
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Nov 29, 2023 20:52
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jokes posted:FFTA, FFTA2, and FFT are all 3 extremely different games and each of them are excellent in their own way.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:01
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Vadun posted:Dofus or Wakfu were pvp games weren't they? It's been ages though, could be wrong Duelyst is a tactics/card game. I remember there was another online tactics/card game ages a go but I don't remember it's called. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 21:04
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FFT and ITB are not strategy or puzzle games, they're action platformers in revserse. The top three strategy RPGs are Puzzle Fighters, Breath of Fire II, and RoboCop for the Game Boy.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:17
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You can get away with playing ITB as a move-to-move puzzle on lower difficulties, but at higher difficulties positioning your units for future turns to avoid being put in "unsolvable puzzles" becomes necessary. At that point it's definitely a strategic game (although maybe more like chess than your traditional hidden information TBS games).
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Nov 29, 2023 21:52
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"Thinking ahead" does not make something not-a-puzzle-game. That's a core mechanic of puzzle games.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:57
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This is my hill, it was made for me.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:00
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dang I thought I was in the roguelike thread for a second
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Nov 29, 2023 22:00
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none of the games being discussed use vi-keys for directional movement so they can't possibly be roguelikes
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Nov 29, 2023 22:02
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https://www.theouterhaven.net/2021/10/diablo-ii-resurrected-review-ps4/quote:Just about everyone knows about Diablo II. It was the original hardcore rogue-like game long before the concept of rouge-like games even existed
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Nov 29, 2023 22:04
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 this person is the cheif enfrocer of what is and isn't a rougelike also Diablo II sucked
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Nov 29, 2023 22:07
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but what about the most important question: is rogue a roguelike?
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Nov 29, 2023 22:10
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lol "New Jerusalem". Talos Principle come on just give me puzzles thanks.
Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 22:10
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repiv posted:but what about the most important question: No metaprogression, no deckbuilding, no survival elements... don't think so, Tim.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:11
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ITB is like Solitaire and FFT is like MTG Limited. Breaking ITB is figuring out that the 8 of Clubs is drawing next; breaking FFT is Channel>Fireball Also the best Strategy RPG was Nobunaga's Ambition for the Gameboy (for realz) 
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Nov 29, 2023 22:11
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I played panzercorps 2 with the luck turned off and i didn't feel like it diminished from the strategy- the opponent's actions tended to provide enough chaos to keep the situation dynamic, though in that game there are a lot of both friendly and enemy units on either end compared to something like Into the Breach. But then again, i'm not into the puzzle characterization of some tactics games in the first place.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:20
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Gotham Knights is decent but there is no reason that it should not be running at 60 fps on console. Arkham Origins has some of the best boss fights in the whole series and definitely worthy of the Arkham name. The remake of Resident Evil 3 was more enjoyable for me than the original and it succeeded in actually making me like the characters. I really want them to put Carlos in more stuff now.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:24
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Diablo 2 isn't even the first roguelike Diablo. Diablo 1 had permadeath
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Nov 29, 2023 22:27
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jokes posted:Diablo 2 isn't even the first roguelike Diablo. Diablo 1 had permadeath It always makes me laugh just how completely forgotten the first diablo became. For so many people, the series started with 2. This is especially funny because buying the diablo 2 + lod combo pack also gave you the original with it, so it's not like the first game had a small reach or anything.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:13
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Devil Survivor 1 is the best tactics game, followed by Devil Survivor 2. They're also the best Persona games.Space Kablooey posted:I really dislike the "lol it's subject 101" take because it might well be someone's first contact with that subject, and i think that's pretty great. On the other hand an FPS that was philosophy 712 or something would probably be pretty amusing.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:20
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The Moon Monster posted:Devil Survivor 1 is the best tactics game, followed by Devil Survivor 2. They're also the best Persona games. That's Serious Sam, same devs as Talos Principle.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:28
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Why did the term roguelike stick around when the similarly terrible “doom clone” died an ignoble death in the late 90’s/early 2000’s?
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Nov 29, 2023 23:28
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FoolyCharged posted:It always makes me laugh just how completely forgotten the first diablo became. For so many people, the series started with 2. They're different genres. D2 is the start of the loot treadmill cookie clicker games and Diablo is an old spooky dungeon crawl to hell.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:31
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I thought meta progression makes it a roguelite, no?
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Nov 29, 2023 23:36
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credburn posted:I thought meta progression makes it a roguelite, no? Roguelite is a game that isn't a roguelike but still wants to attach the word "rogue" to itself for some reason. They pretty much all have meta progression though, yeah.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:47
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If you can go on a wiki and it tells u what a potion does, it's a roguelite. If you go on a wiki and it tells you a bunch of stuff you can do to relatively safely test what the potion isn't, it's a roguelike.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:52
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Khanstant posted:If you can go on a wiki and it tells u what a potion does, it's a roguelite. If you go on a wiki and it tells you a bunch of stuff you can do to relatively safely test what the potion isn't, it's a roguelike.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:53
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Wanna see a modern AAA reboot of Rogue.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:54
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George posted:Wanna see a modern AAA reboot of Rogue. Just think how sharply a modern monitor could display those ascii characters.
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Nov 30, 2023 00:02
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i liked Dungeons of Dredmor a lot too bad about Clockwork Empires, though, I had high hopes for that but it just didn't turn out that great and killed that company dead MrQwerty fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 00:05
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Roguelikes are a cool genre except Caves of Qud reached the zenith and no other roguelike will ever come close to what it achieves
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Nov 30, 2023 00:11
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MrQwerty posted:i liked Dungeons of Dredmor a lot Dredmor was so good, it nailed being easy to pick up but still having a lot of depth
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Nov 30, 2023 00:23
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