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Vermain posted:When Zenos is on the Garlean ship with Fandaniel in one of the post-MSQ cutscenes (possibly 5.1?), he mentions having been haunted by dreams of a burning city and the end of the world ever since he was young. This is from a while ago but I just hit this in my re-playthrough and something stuck out to me. It's the final cutscene of 5.2. quote:Zenos yae Galvus: That dream again... The bold part, Fandaniel speaks under his breath, and sounds genuinely surprised or impressed. But what is he implying? That Emet-Selch found a way to.. give a Garlean the Echo? We didn't see any involvement with him and the Resonant, but it's possible he kicked off the whole project before coming to the First. But even if it were that, Zenos is saying he's had these dreams even before all the Resonant stuff happened. Or maybe he's thinking he found a way to implant memories of the Final Days directly? Or something even more out there, like he found a way to pass Ascian-ness through the royal bloodline?
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Nov 10, 2021 15:50
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I always felt it was implied that being part Ascian is why Varis and Zenos were such absolute units.
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Nov 10, 2021 15:57
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They’re not part Ascian though. Physically they’re entirely Garlean.
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Nov 10, 2021 16:12
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:They’re not part Ascian though. Physically they’re entirely Garlean. They're also gigantic compared to normal Garleans, and Zenos has memories he should not have of Amaurot a place he has never been and had no Aether/Echo until long after his childhood where he dreamed them.
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Nov 10, 2021 16:19
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:They’re not part Ascian though. Physically they’re entirely Garlean. And Emet in his Solus body is the shortest of the three! Varis is the tallest, dude towers over even his monster of a son. So there was some mysterious tall lady in the picture who we haven't met 
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Nov 10, 2021 16:35
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Begemot posted:And Emet in his Solus body is the shortest of the three! Varis is the tallest, dude towers over even his monster of a son. So there was some mysterious tall lady in the picture who we haven't met Solus's wife wasn't. You know they say all Garleans are created equal, but you look at Varis and you look at Cid Garlond and you can see that statement is NOT TRUE! Varis is a genetic freak, and he's not normal.
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Nov 10, 2021 16:43
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TGLT posted:Solus's wife wasn't. You know they say all Garleans are created equal, but you look at Varis and you look at Cid Garlond and you can see that statement is NOT TRUE! Varis is a genetic freak, and he's not normal. lmao
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Nov 10, 2021 16:44
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Begemot posted:And Emet in his Solus body is the shortest of the three! Varis is the tallest, dude towers over even his monster of a son. So there was some mysterious tall lady in the picture who we haven't met Maybe the Imperial Palace during Solus' reign of foreign conquest was visited by a freakishly tall milkman or something 
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Nov 10, 2021 17:02
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It seems plausible that if Emet was setting out to found an imperial dynasty so that he could a. play house and b. control them later, he'd do some weird genetic poo poo. Even if he didn't put some genetic control program in them, making sure the ruling dynasty are large lads with good reflexes will reduce the odds of some jackass derailing the plan because they got lucky in a duel.
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Nov 10, 2021 17:04
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Nessus posted:It seems plausible that if Emet was setting out to found an imperial dynasty so that he could a. play house and b. control them later, he'd do some weird genetic poo poo. Even if he didn't put some genetic control program in them, making sure the ruling dynasty are large lads with good reflexes will reduce the odds of some jackass derailing the plan because they got lucky in a duel. Notably he almost felt, sad, when his eldest son died of illness even though he was huge and robust (bigger than Varis and Zenos even). Emet specifically liked that his sons were big and strong and closer to Ascian sized based on a side story.
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Nov 10, 2021 17:26
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Don't kill me or my large adult sons ever again
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Nov 10, 2021 18:44
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:You don't need faith to summon a primal. (Zodiark, Hydaelyn, Bahamut, Shinryu, Enkidu are all non religious summonings). It helps, and most primals are religious figures, but they aren't all. Additionally the fact that Shiva and King Thordan exist already show its not necessarily faith and worship that’ll summon a primal. It’s just having a belief in a concept that allows for it, so parents scaring their kids with spooky stories about the scary sword man in the woods is probably enough to generate a lunar odin if enough are strapped into a tower. Similarly, the SMN job quests had a smn supercomputer imply that our WoL is conceptually well-known enough that they could generate an egi outta us, so theoretically a primal version of us is possible.
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Nov 10, 2021 18:47
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still expecting one of the dungeon bosses or even trials to be a garlean primal, since for all their "no, religion is bad" posturing they literally call the head of state Your Radiance
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Nov 10, 2021 18:50
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My theory is that primal summoning is basically a very limited version of ancient creation magic, and that someone who knows what they're doing could summon a primal without even belief (after all, the ancients, as far as I know, made Zodiark from scratch rather than drawing on some belief they had about an existing god)
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Nov 10, 2021 19:02
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Qwertycoatl posted:My theory is that primal summoning is basically a very limited version of ancient creation magic, and that someone who knows what they're doing could summon a primal without even belief (after all, the ancients, as far as I know, made Zodiark from scratch rather than drawing on some belief they had about an existing god) There’s a short story where Hythlodaeus? I think? watches Emet-Selch create Phoenix from nothing
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Nov 10, 2021 19:04
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Lord_Magmar posted:Notably he almost felt, sad, when his eldest son died of illness even though he was huge and robust (bigger than Varis and Zenos even). Emet specifically liked that his sons were big and strong and closer to Ascian sized based on a side story. We know that there is more than raw genetics to heredity in this world since the energies of a person's soul, the physical substance of a person and the environment itself are all different vibrations of the same stuff and it doesn't take THAT much extra energy to start blending all of that together in new and horrible ways. I could very easily see a situation in which Hades' spirit is resulting in the conception of large, half-Amurotian children even though his body is Garlean. We have no other examples of an Unsundered having children at this time. But we do have interesting situations where the offspring of Garlean and non-Garlean generally result in the children taking after the non-Garlean parent. It is interesting that during the time that Allag started to REALLY go downhill being Huge became fashionable, right after Sephirot was captured and his unique magicks that governed gigantism were studied.
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Nov 10, 2021 19:06
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Chillgamesh posted:There’s a short story where Hythlodaeus? I think? watches Emet-Selch create Phoenix from nothing The exact opposite happens. Hyth finds Emet to try and kill the undying fire bird that someone else (Laha?) made because somehow it had a soul, which Creations aren't supposed to.
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Nov 10, 2021 19:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The exact opposite happens. Hyth finds Emet to try and kill the undying fire bird that someone else (Laha?) made because somehow it had a soul, which Creations aren't supposed to. More precisely, someone's soul got caught up in the creation of Pheonix. I've had a theory for a while, since I read that story, that perhaps the reason Granpa became Phoenix was because he was a fragment OF that soul that had originally become Phoenix.
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Nov 10, 2021 19:08
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it would be wild if they have tiny edens in the towers allowing whatever the gently caress to be made with the power of twisted creation magic, thoughts, and memories
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Nov 10, 2021 19:10
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We already know that creating a primal out of nothing is possible since Shinryu exists. It is explicitly "no myth made manifest but a being of pure violence."
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Nov 10, 2021 19:45
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I thought the eyes of Nidhogg made him go super saiyan and were used to summon Shinryu, and Papalymo did something too before dying
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Nov 10, 2021 19:47
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the towers themselves are definitely primals (they all just suddenly showed up out of nowhere, and they temper people while the lunar primals do not)
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Nov 10, 2021 19:47
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petcarcharodon posted:the towers themselves are definitely primals (they all just suddenly showed up out of nowhere, and they temper people while the lunar primals do not) My guess would be that they're some kind of a living thing. I can't imagine that the organic look they have is accidental. They could've been concealed somehow until they went active, though. People had been vanishing for a while and nobody could figure out where.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:08
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I honestly figure the towers are easily explained by Fandaniel teleporting them around to get them in place.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:10
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ImpAtom posted:We already know that creating a primal out of nothing is possible since Shinryu exists. It is explicitly "no myth made manifest but a being of pure violence." I think that was just the manifestation of the dead Ala Mhigans' plea to Rhalgr (the God of Destruction) for vengeance, as well as Nidhogg's draconic will, charged with the entropic force of the icy void underneath Ishgard - I don't think there was any special consciousness or personality to Shinryu, which is why Zenos was able to take command of it so easily. ZenMasterBullshit posted:The exact opposite happens. Hyth finds Emet to try and kill the undying fire bird that someone else (Laha?) made because somehow it had a soul, which Creations aren't supposed to. I knew I wasn't remembering it properly. But still - that indicates that Phoenix was an actual individual and not just a gestalt like other Primals are.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:12
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Chillgamesh posted:I knew I wasn't remembering it properly. But still - that indicates that Phoenix was an actual individual and not just a gestalt like other Primals are. Well, yes, because this was pre-Sundering, and someone had died, was in the process of being reborn, and accidentally gotten caught up in someone's creation of a Guardian Force. This resulted in a soul being in something that wasn't supposed to have a soul, and they were in torment because they wanted to not be a giant flaming bird and hadn't the power to end themselves. And thus, Emet-Selch got called in as an expert in Creation magics and matters of the soul.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:23
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Huh, I wonder if that's why the WoL is able to channel Phoenix into an demi-egi the same way they channel Bahamut, they have some connection to it through Azem? It's very funny to me how there is just no explanation for that, since there are no job quests for Shadowbringers. Attuning with Bahamut is this whole long, specific thing based on where it appeared and what it did, but with Phoenix you just kinda figure it out on your own, in your free time.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:24
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Begemot posted:Huh, I wonder if that's why the WoL is able to channel Phoenix into an demi-egi the same way they channel Bahamut, they have some connection to it through Azem? the entire world has access to Pheonix and Bahamut's aether due to the calamity, it's hard to do but any given summoner has the potential to learn it
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Nov 10, 2021 20:26
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yeah it was louisoix as phoenix letting out all the aether into the world that let it recover so (relatively) quickly, so it's pretty accessible
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Nov 10, 2021 20:30
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I wonder if YoshiP and friends thought about how cool and interesting Phoenix is when working on FFXVI. “Louisoix!! stop this!!”
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Nov 10, 2021 20:32
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Chillgamesh posted:I knew I wasn't remembering it properly. But still - that indicates that Phoenix was an actual individual and not just a gestalt like other Primals are. The original Phoenix was an individual, just like Bahamut, Shiva, Garuda, etc. Most primals are probably based on an actual living figure at one point. Shinryu is probably the only exception we know of, and then the Eureka weapons because they're weird.
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Nov 10, 2021 21:12
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I just noticed that they low key snuck a statue of FF4 Asura into the Endwalker patch trailer and now I'm laughing.
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Nov 10, 2021 21:40
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The original Phoenix was an individual, just like Bahamut, Shiva, Garuda, etc. I feel like this is becoming super muddled and that I've contributed to the confusion (or maybe everyone else understands the conversation and I don't, in which case, my bad) I think the point we are trying to answer is: rather than a person becoming the basis of an ideal which is then used to summon a Primal, or a person's soul being used as fuel for a Primal summoning or creation magic, is it possible for summoning or creation magic to simply create sapient life? I thought that was what happened in the Phoenix short story, that Phoenix was "born" by creation magic, but as Gearhead pointed out, it wasn't.
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Nov 10, 2021 21:56
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Begemot posted:Huh, I wonder if that's why the WoL is able to channel Phoenix into an demi-egi the same way they channel Bahamut, they have some connection to it through Azem? I feel like summoning bahamut in the stormblood job quests is really weird. You and the summon team go on this 10 level long quest to learn a long lost secret summoning technique... and you don't even tell any of them what it is or demonstrate it at the end of it! It being summon bahamut also felt a bit out of nowhere when heavensward was all "well, that's not possible".
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Nov 10, 2021 22:48
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Chillgamesh posted:I think the point we are trying to answer is: rather than a person becoming the basis of an ideal which is then used to summon a Primal, or a person's soul being used as fuel for a Primal summoning or creation magic, is it possible for summoning or creation magic to simply create sapient life? It seems like the idea of 'sapient life' forming from where there was no sapience before happens all the time. The people who do not get the Echo when exposed to the Starshower effect are people whose souls became sapient after the Final Days happened. If we use the FF7 model, people become people spontaneously all the time. Sometimes people become trees after they die. Maybe a rock. Maybe a duck or a dog. Maybe a dog becomes a person. If it happens naturally, science can surely replicate it when you SCIENCE hard enough. What DOES seem to be the case, though, is that Amurotian souls do not dissolve fully. Something is left of the old days in them. Something still remembers. EDIT: Taking this a bit further. It appears that the Amurotians distinguish between the body's aether and the spirit's aether. A Guardian Force, the predecessor to a Primal, would be created when an Amurotian sacrificed their body's aether to create a being and they would deliberately enter the Lifestream to be recycled. Zodiark and Hydelain, meanwhile, were created by deliberately building a Primal/Eikon/??? around a sacrificed soul. Phoenix was created by accident when someone wove the aether of a recently deceased someone's soul into a creation by accident. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Nov 10, 2021 |
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Nov 10, 2021 23:08
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Gearhead posted:We know that there is more than raw genetics to heredity in this world since the energies of a person's soul, the physical substance of a person and the environment itself are all different vibrations of the same stuff and it doesn't take THAT much extra energy to start blending all of that together in new and horrible ways. I could very easily see a situation in which Hades' spirit is resulting in the conception of large, half-Amurotian children even though his body is Garlean. We have no other examples of an Unsundered having children at this time. But we do have interesting situations where the offspring of Garlean and non-Garlean generally result in the children taking after the non-Garlean parent. Technically we do have one other example of an unsundered having kids with Midgardsormr and his brood, but dragons are asexual so it's hardly relevant anyway
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Nov 11, 2021 04:31
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Ibblebibble posted:Technically we do have one other example of an unsundered having kids with Midgardsormr and his brood, but dragons are asexual so it's hardly relevant anyway Also Midgardsormr was bringing his children with him from his home planet, either as eggs or smol babies attached to his wings.
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Nov 11, 2021 05:29
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Ibblebibble posted:Technically we do have one other example of an unsundered having kids with Midgardsormr and his brood, but dragons are asexual so it's hardly relevant anyway Lord_Magmar posted:Also Midgardsormr was bringing his children with him from his home planet, either as eggs or smol babies attached to his wings. This actually reminds me of something I've been wondering about. Midgardsormr and his seven children that he brought with him to Hydaelyn from the Dragon Star presumably had souls that were from that planet's Lifestream. But their respective broods were all sired on Hydaelyn, meaning their souls should be native to this planet's lifestream, not the Dragon Star's. Does that mean it's possible for a dragon born to one of those broods to have the Echo?
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Nov 11, 2021 05:36
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Maybe it’s a universal/galactic lifestream
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Nov 11, 2021 06:05
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W.T. Fits posted:Does that mean it's possible for a dragon born to one of those broods to have the Echo? Dragons are really weird, and we don't know everything about how they work. It could be that, since they create offspring through a deliberate act of construction, they aren't building new dragons out of souls that existed as people previously. Mechanically they seem to have abilities that are a lot like several of the abilities Amurotians had.
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Nov 11, 2021 06:53
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