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The issue is the writing and pacing, not Moss' acting. She does the best with what she's given, and it's often phenomenal when she's given an opportunity to fire on all cylinders, but if June's circumstances just don't change that much there's only so much variety she can realistically inject into her performance. These problems would still be there if Wiley or Bledel were in the lead instead.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:58
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God what a lovely ending I can't believe the Lydia stabbing was a fakeout either. She should be dead even if her character is the best part of the show.
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Jul 15, 2018 05:34
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What was fake about it? She took one stab to the back of the shoulder and a fall down the stairs. I wouldn't expect that to be a lethal wound, and nothing about the way the scene was shot suggested she was dead/dying. They even explicitly showed the commander calling for an ambulance
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Jul 15, 2018 07:08
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Loucks posted:So like farmhouse purgatory in Walking Dead? That's actually a really good comparison. Bigger things happen than in TWD season 2 but they somehow seem to amount to even less in this show. Just watch the first season and move on. Season 2 is garbage.
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Jul 15, 2018 09:21
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Combat Pretzel posted:I'm just catching up, currently going through season 2. I've probably missed things... Over what time span do the USA transition to Gilead? Seems there hasn't been enough time for things to devolve into these ridiculous arrangements, traditions and practises. How huge of a following did they have to turn a whole country around in relatively no time? Also, Serena seems a bit plot-dumb. At the beginning of season 2 she asks what's wrong with June, shortly after recapturing her. Considering she's one of the co-conspirators of all that bullshit, and it's been made clear in season 1 already that she ain't too happy of her own position all of this, including the loss of control, the obliviousness seems kinda forced. Actually, because the Iranian Revolution happened, it's completely natural that America would become more regressive than ISIS.
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Jul 15, 2018 13:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Actually, because the Iranian Revolution happened, it's completely natural that America would become more regressive than ISIS. Ugh, people have already given you real historical examples of societies changing even more dramatically in just as short of a timeframe.The United States of America are not special or magic in that regard. But whatever, you do what you have to do. Do your "thing"
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Jul 15, 2018 17:58
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Anyone who says the United States couldn't fall into a theocracy real loving fast has probably never stepped foot in this country. I'm from the Bible Belt and I'm certain that a 3/4ths of my home state would absolutely revel in having a fundamentalist government.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:16
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Yep, and glassing cities is really all they'd have to do to get rid of most of their opposition. It's easy to forget what this country looks like outside of the liberal urban bubbles.
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Jul 15, 2018 20:16
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My guess is June will be the new Handmaid at the rebel Commander, and work with him in the resistance. I'm sort of miffed we didn't see what happened to Emily's former mistress after her husband died. What do Gilead do with widows? My theory is that they are given a few months of public mourning, then pressed into joining the Aunts. Can't really see these creepy commanders wanting to marry a widow when they can get a child bride. Nor see these spoiled wives wanting to "marry down" and maybe have to take jobs as Marthas. Then again, this is Gilead, wouldn't put it past them to glorify the idea of a widow going to the grave with her husband, or some kind of convent for them to live in absolute poverty officially praying for society or something.
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Jul 15, 2018 21:18
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I would assume that if the person who died had a brother, they'd be wedded to him.Deuteronomy 25:5 posted:
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Jul 15, 2018 21:34
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Vanderdeath posted:Anyone who says the United States couldn't fall into a theocracy real loving fast has probably never stepped foot in this country. I'm from the Bible Belt and I'm certain that a 3/4ths of my home state would absolutely revel in having a fundamentalist government. Just because they'd revel in it doesn't mean it's something we could just "fall into"
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Jul 16, 2018 06:46
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veni veni veni posted:Just because they'd revel in it doesn't mean it's something we could just "fall into" On the show, they didn't. There was a massive fertility crisis that threatened the existence of the human race and the President and all of Congress were assassinated. Then the coup happened.
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Jul 16, 2018 07:18
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Gilead being created through the events as depicted in the show is highly unlikely of course, but that's not really all that important. It's just supposed to be a dystopia that has basis in our own reality, so that it's understandable and a reflection on our own society. The details don't matter, and I believe the book never bothers with them much either.
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Jul 16, 2018 13:35
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Yes, the way the book describes is chilling, especially considering it was written 30+ years ago.The Handmaid's Tale posted:I guess that’s how they were able to do it, in the way they did, all at once, without anyone knowing beforehand. If there had still been portable money, it would have been more difficult. It was after the catastrophe, when they shot the president and machine-gunned the Congress and the army declared a state of emergency. They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. Keep calm, they said on television. Everything is under control. I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to believe. The entire government, gone like that. How did they get in, how did it happen? That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn’t even an enemy you could put your finger on. Look out, said Moira to me, over the phone. Here it comes. Here what comes? I said. You wait, she said. They’ve been building up to this. It’s you and me up against the wall, baby. She was quoting an expression of my mother’s, but she wasn’t intending to be funny. Things continued in that state of suspended animation for weeks, although some things did happen. Newspapers were censored and some were closed down, for security reasons they said. The roadblocks began to appear, and Identipasses. Everyone approved of that, since it was obvious you couldn’t be too careful. They said that new elections would be held, but that it would take some time to prepare for them. The thing to do, they said, was to continue on as usual. Shortly after is when they seize all women's accounts and force them to quit their jobs.
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Jul 16, 2018 13:39
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cocoavalley posted:Shortly after is when they seize all women's accounts and force them to quit their jobs.
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Jul 16, 2018 13:47
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cocoavalley posted:Yes, the way the book describes is chilling, especially considering it was written 30+ years ago. While we're sharing chilling parts of the book about how society slipped into Gilead, this one really got me: quote:"That dormitory had once been co-educational, there were still urinals in one of the washrooms on our floor. But by the time I'd got there they'd put the men and women back the way they were." Such a relatively small reactionary retrenchment, too easy to imagine happening today.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:31
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American theocracy would not be identical to Gilead, and may not happen in the same pace, but anyone who thinks it outright couldn't happen hasn't been keeping up on current events.
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Jul 16, 2018 14:42
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Tiggum posted:Pretty sure they did that the other way around in the TV show and it made no sense. Yeah I think since the show adapted both parts they should have kept those events together instead of mixing them around with June's other memories. I agree that the 'how' doesn't really matter and the book doesn't dwell on it either, but it's still interesting. Making it confusing just draws more attention to it.
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Jul 16, 2018 17:37
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Ugh, people have already given you real historical examples of societies changing even more dramatically in just as short of a timeframe.The United States of America are not special or magic in that regard. But whatever, you do what you have to do. Do your "thing" Even Handmaid's Tale admits shows that the rise of Gilead would be impossible, because it would demand a group of cranks to execute the most successful conspiracy, terrorist strike, and coup in the history of mankind: cocoavalley posted:I guess that’s how they were able to do it, in the way they did, all at once, without anyone knowing beforehand. If there had still been portable money, it would have been more difficult. It was after the catastrophe, when they shot the president and machine-gunned the Congress and the army declared a state of emergency. They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. Keep calm, they said on television. Everything is under control. I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to believe. The entire government, gone like that. How did they get in, how did it happen? That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn’t even an enemy you could put your finger on. Look out, said Moira to me, over the phone. Here it comes. Here what comes? I said. You wait, she said. They’ve been building up to this. It’s you and me up against the wall, baby. She was quoting an expression of my mother’s, but she wasn’t intending to be funny. Things continued in that state of suspended animation for weeks, although some things did happen. Newspapers were censored and some were closed down, for security reasons they said. The roadblocks began to appear, and Identipasses. Everyone approved of that, since it was obvious you couldn’t be too careful. They said that new elections would be held, but that it would take some time to prepare for them. The thing to do, they said, was to continue on as usual. I guess it's chilling if you're a a paranoid wreck. This is the key part: quote:Here it comes. Here what comes? I said. You wait, she said. They’ve been building up to this. It’s you and me up against the wall, baby. What needs to be understood is that "here it comes" could literally mean anything - there's no way Moira could actually foresee the idiotic Gilead state. It's hucksterism, a political cold reading. The real revolution brought up as justifications were all predicated on popular movements and existing institutions working out in the open. The Islamic Republic was voted into power in a referendum.
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Jul 16, 2018 18:52
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Yeah I mean there would have to be a policital party out there already that warp religion to further it's power and oppress women.
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Jul 16, 2018 18:58
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah I mean there would have to be a policital party out there already that warp religion to further it's power and oppress women. Paranoia is not insight. Concubinage is not a functional metaphor for Roe vs. Wade being overturned or whatever. Handmaid's Tale is simply an unsustainable fantasy that people can mine for rhetorical comparisons, like Orwell's 1984.
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Jul 16, 2018 19:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:it would demand a group of cranks to execute the most successful conspiracy, terrorist strike, and coup in the history of mankind: What is the October Revolution?
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Jul 16, 2018 20:06
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:What is the October Revolution?  Do you even know if that deposed the Czar or Kerensky?
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Jul 16, 2018 20:19
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
I see someone skimmed some wikipedia article summaries. You go girl, good for you!
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Jul 16, 2018 20:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Even Handmaid's Tale admits shows that the rise of Gilead would be impossible, because it would demand a group of cranks to execute the most successful conspiracy, terrorist strike, and coup in the history of mankind: --edit: Ugh, I'm just watching episode 10 in season 2, where that waifu of Nick gets caught "cheating" with the guard, which kind of lays the groundwork for a heart to heart talk about realities and how Gilead is a sham, but nope. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 16, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 20:43
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I see someone skimmed some wikipedia article summaries. You go girl, good for you! Perhaps you should read something beyond wikipedia. Real revolutions involve popular movements affecting regime changes, not elaborate, pitch-perfect false-flag operations. The October Revolution, for example, involved the overthrow of an already shaky government that had come to power in less than a year, and led to immediate resistance. Contrast: "The entire government, gone like that. How did they get in, how did it happen? That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets." The reason Gilead seems to come out of nowhere is because it in fact is from nowhere. Real "fertility crises" have led to no revolutions, because deep down fertility is not something that can really draw people to political action. Not even racists care that much about their own fertility as a political matter, what worries them is other people's birth rates. Otherwise it's a worry for statisticians.
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Jul 16, 2018 20:53
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if there was a real fertility crisis (it's difficult to imagine how?) to the point of endangering the basic reproductive survival of the human race it would definitely lead to a revolution. but it would be a revolution with a real moral dilemma behind it: 1) enforced reproduction (destruction of individual freedom); or 2) death/decline of humanity (preservation of individual freedom). i wouldn't watch a show that took the necessary dimensions of such a crisis seriously--because it would be miserable to watch--but it would present a far more challenging message than 'tyranny is bad.' 'revolutions,' in the most robust historical definition (a total transformation of society) only take place when an old society is 1) no longer (ideologically) persuasive; 2) no longer (materially) sustainable. there are only a few 'revolutions' that fully meet this definitional criteria: the french revolution, the russian revolution, the chinese revolution. the necessary disruption to american way of life would have to be titanic--more than a few nukes--for a 'gilead' revolution to take place. and if it did take place -- it wouldn't be possible for the 'old society' to return in any straightforward way. because that old society would have to have comprehensively and utterly failed in order for the new gilead society to become suddenly and explosively possible. the giliad we see i would probably not call a successful revolution because it will probably be toppled by the end of the series and american society will then inexplicably return to normal. Zane fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 17, 2018 |
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Jul 17, 2018 01:37
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Hey, I just admire this goon's good-hearted sense of naivete. Where can I get some? What they seem not to have found on Wikipedia is a very simple fact of revolution: a successful one takes about 15-20% of the population to be committed and fervent. There's not much need to get more granular than that here.
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Jul 17, 2018 07:40
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Propaganda Machine posted:Hey, I just admire this goon's good-hearted sense of naivete. Where can I get some? Gilead doesn't have that - it's explicitly a putsch without popular support. Atwood has to explain that they seize power through a complicated false-flag operation. This is why Gilead seems to appear out of nowhere - because there are no real Gileadians. It's a less plausible version of what happens in Michel Houllebecq's Submission, which is a satire where Islamists gain power in France in a coalition with leftists and begin to Islamicize the country. As you point out, only a committed minority of the population is needed to carry out a revolution.
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Jul 17, 2018 09:23
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I think this is the wrong type of fiction if you have to piss and moan about lack of tactical realism. First and foremost it's a setting created to explore the idea of the reactionary christian conservative movement of the 1980s taken to the most extreme end. There's not a whole lot of exposition other than there's been about 20 years of rapidly decreasing infertility and environmental damage and then a military junta. It is written from the perspective of a woman locked in a room after all.
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Jul 17, 2018 14:51
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Propaganda Machine posted:Hey, I just admire this goon's good-hearted sense of naivete. Where can I get some? Not really. It stands and falls with the military. If it stays loyal and willing to shoot civilians there's simply not going to be a revolution. The military can even seize power with no civilian support at all.
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Jul 17, 2018 23:21
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Bates posted:Not really. It stands and falls with the military. If it stays loyal and willing to shoot civilians there's simply not going to be a revolution. The military can even seize power with no civilian support at all. Just about all of our military is either abroad or clustered about the sporadic large bases throughout the country. Domestic mobilization is operated by the National Guard per state. They get orders from above and all but it's still a looser organizational structure. I might be slightly wrong but I think that'd more likely to happen here. Regardless, servicemembers veer conservative and I think you'd see much stronger support for Gilead within their ranks, to bring things back to our poor, abused television show.
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Jul 17, 2018 23:31
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Propaganda Machine posted:Regardless, servicemembers veer conservative and I think you'd see much stronger support for Gilead within their ranks, to bring things back to our poor, abused television show. The Navy skews liberal as do enlisted minorities across all branches. The following correlate positively with reactionary sympathies in the military, in order: Officer, Marines, Air Force, White, Army The military as a whole does not really skew conservative, but certain segments certainly do.
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Jul 18, 2018 00:07
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Sorry if this has been mentioned but, if women are NEVER allowed to read, how do they have an encyclopedic knowledge of Bible verses? Are they only allowed to read the Bible, just no writing, or are they getting like, Bible podcasts 24/7 or something? Or is this just another of many plot holes? I don't remember this from the book, it may have been addressed there and/or in the show. or even this thread, which, if that's the case, sorry, Im watching the last episode now and haven't read the last pages due to spoilers. They just found Eden's book with notes which made me wonder.
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Jul 25, 2018 05:31
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:Sorry if this has been mentioned but, if women are NEVER allowed to read, how do they have an encyclopedic knowledge of Bible verses? Are they only allowed to read the Bible, just no writing, or are they getting like, Bible podcasts 24/7 or something? Or is this just another of many plot holes? I don't remember this from the book, it may have been addressed there and/or in the show. or even this thread, which, if that's the case, sorry, Im watching the last episode now and haven't read the last pages due to spoilers. They just found Eden's book with notes which made me wonder. They made a point of saying Emily's son is 7, so presumably, Serena and the other wives haven't forgotten how to read in that time.
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Jul 25, 2018 05:38
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:Sorry if this has been mentioned but, if women are NEVER allowed to read, how do they have an encyclopedic knowledge of Bible verses? They were already hardcore Christians before Gilead and they were allowed to read then.
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Jul 25, 2018 09:46
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Wafflecopper posted:They were already hardcore Christians before Gilead and they were allowed to read then. and the plan for future gilead is to have the men tell them what's in the bible. Just how the priests told the people back in the day before literacy was common.
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Jul 25, 2018 11:08
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An article about how there was going to be another rape scene: https://www.themarysue.com/rape-scene-the-handmaids-tale/ I'm glad Fiennes fought to have it taken out.
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Jul 26, 2018 18:12
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Yeah, that's the smoking gun of the writing room being on crack this year.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:06
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Alterian posted:An article about how there was going to be another rape scene: https://www.themarysue.com/rape-scene-the-handmaids-tale/ The show doesn't have to be all flowers and sunshine but at least spare us from this edgelord rape/mutilation of women trope that just smacks of lazy writing. We've already been shown how horrible Gilead is in the first season, we understand the stakes here.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:13
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