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Sininen tulevaisuus got renamed again. Sininen eduskuntaryhmä.  Or I guess the party is still going to be called "Sininen tulevaisuus"? And just this eduskuntaryhmä was called "Uusi vaihtoehto" in the mean time. I dunno, it gets confusing. Zat fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 16:15
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It fits a party that is basically quantum in nature, having a support less then the margin of error in most polls and yet has 20 MP's, five ministers and Speaker of the Parliament in their ranks. Clearly normal laws of party physics do not apply here.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:35
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It's cute that they're suddenly interested in campaign finance restrictions now that they are dirt poor because of Lex Soini. They are also struggling to get the 5000 supporter signatures to get enrolled as a party, which is amazing because kooky parties and lists like Eläkeläisten asialla or whatever the gently caress can pull it off. I guess they'll get there by the next scheduled election, but what happens if there's a snap election? I guess they'll just try to set up valitsijayhdistyksiä because you only need 100 per candidate for that.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:54
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Aug 14, 2017 17:18
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DarkCrawler posted:Cool, that's way not enough taxes. Tax them more. They're not doing nearly enough labor, effort, thinking or anything else for all that money nor are they really that much worth to the company or the world at large anyway. Also unlike globalization tax evasion IS a problem that Finland can do something about, through national legislation and European Union co-operation. So tax them more and fight tax evasion more. Not that we'll see this government doing much of either. LA doesn't have a record. They were a government party in a government that was unable to make any significant cuts and probably hurt the Finnish poor a shitload just through inaction. But LA isn't going to take any responsibility for anything that government did, ever. As for the groups you mentioned, I certainly can't think of there being many noises from the left coming about any of those. Maybe it's because the Finnish right is just as good at supporting the actual poor as the left, so there isn't room for debate? And I did say "government workers" (who were the ones that lost lomarahat). People who have jobs that qualified for lomarahat are not poor. Not even close. ALLAN LASSUS posted:What loving effort?! Are you saying that nowadays when the CEOs get like 400 times the wage of an employee, compared to when they got around 40 times as much as an employee 30 years ago*, they're now putting over 10 times as much effort into their loving jobs than they did in the 80s? Seriously? That argument is retarded because effort isn't directly proportional to compensation. If I'm the shareholder of a company worth €1bn and I find a CEO who is 0.1% better than my current CEO, I should be willing to pay him up to €10 million more. For reference, the CEO of Finnair (a company whose market cap is about €1bn) made less than €1 million last year. You might want to ask yourself why the same happens in many walks of life - the best footballer players are not a thousand times better than the ones playing just one division below, but get paid so. The best tennis and golf players are not a thousand times better than the world number 300 or whatever, but get paid like they are. And even if the contracting is inefficient, I'm still baffled by how offended left-wingers get about a private contract where one rich person get screwed over by another rich person.
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Aug 14, 2017 18:05
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Geriatric Pirate posted:LA doesn't have a record. They were a government party in a government that was unable to make any significant cuts and probably hurt the Finnish poor a shitload just through inaction. But LA isn't going to take any responsibility for anything that government did, ever. As for the groups you mentioned, I certainly can't think of there being many noises from the left coming about any of those. Maybe it's because the Finnish right is just as good at supporting the actual poor as the left, so there isn't room for debate? LA hasn't been elected to lead a government. They were partners in a lot of poo poo, but other parties have set the tone. You can blame them for the particular cuts they have participated in, but it pales in comparison to others and has caused a lot more dissent inside the party then in other parties as well, to the point of separate parliamentiary groups. To try and equate their record with Kok. or Kepu who have presided over this country since I was in high school is a ludicrous endeavour. And again, not one red cent should be cut from anyone else until the millionnaires and billionnaires, people who live lifestyles 90% of people can only dream of, are squeezed dry. Most money from the least people. If 1% of people have 50% of the world's wealth, you go after that 1% first. Simple, cold hard efficiency. The middle class may not struggle as much as the poor, but they struggle more then super-rich, who are in a better position then the rest of the world by every metric. Why would you go after those who struggle more? Instead of EU and Finland pursuing austerity, it should pursue companies, bankers, tax havens and corrupt rich people at home and elsewhere (EU). Those are the policies Finland needs to focus on, anything else is a bullshit smokescreen. Anyone with a brain can see where the real money is. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 01:20
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http://www.hs.fi/talous/art-2000005326129.html Bitcoin ei ole enää libertaarinörttien näpertelyä – maailmassa on jo satoja miljonäärejä, joiden varat ovat kiinni vaihtoehtoisissa valuutoissa I love how the media still gets excited and has serious articles about fun bucks for drugs and money laundering. I wonder if Geriatric Pirate has a bitcoin hoard or does he only get high on Ayn Rand.
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Aug 15, 2017 12:10
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http://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/201708122200322970_pi.shtml "Väyrysen puolueen puheenjohtaja ei hyväksy evoluutioteorian opetusta kouluissa: "Ihminen on luotu ihmiseksi"" 
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Aug 15, 2017 12:27
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LMAO it's 2017 and we still got these kooks around
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Aug 15, 2017 12:29
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Honestly, it's far more stupid to believe that privatization works than creationism.
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Aug 15, 2017 13:50
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throw to first drat IT posted:http://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/201708122200322970_pi.shtml Whoever re-coloured that with a computer should be slapped.
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Aug 15, 2017 13:54
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Kemper Boyd posted:Honestly, it's far more stupid to believe that privatization works than creationism. Invisible hand is indeed the most baffling religious dogma of them all.
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Aug 15, 2017 14:05
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I have chosen to become a free market lutheran. Capitalism is human nature after all and only heathen communists believe in evolution. "On the sixth day, God created all the land animals, people and fractional banking"
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Aug 15, 2017 14:15
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DarkCrawler posted:LA hasn't been elected to lead a government. They were partners in a lot of poo poo, but other parties have set the tone. You can blame them for the particular cuts they have participated in, but it pales in comparison to others and has caused a lot more dissent inside the party then in other parties as well, to the point of separate parliamentiary groups. To try and equate their record with Kok. or Kepu who have presided over this country since I was in high school is a ludicrous endeavour. There are literally under 10 billionaires in Finland with a total wealth that would fund our budget deficit for like a year. Every single one of them could relocate easily, and then you get no tax revenue. Most "millionaires" in Finland are people who own property in Helsinki or Espoo, and most of those properties are less comfortable than what €300,000 gets you in the countryside. Once again, you're stuck with an image of rich people that appears to come from soap operas instead of reality. There's no hidden stash of money. It's the ultimate populist argument (after ending yritystuet and closing tax loopholes) to just tax the uber rich to fund our deficits, leaving the upper middle class engineers and doctors untouched. It's also a classic way for the left to try to appeal to people they will end up taxing out of their asses (see: Corbyn and his unexpected popularity among young doctors) Also: Companies are not people. When you tax a company, you are taxing its owners.
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Aug 15, 2017 14:55
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Also: Companies are not people. When you tax a company, you are taxing its owners. Tell that to the US supreme court.
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Aug 15, 2017 15:07
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Geriatric Pirate posted:There are literally under 10 billionaires in Finland with a total wealth that would fund our budget deficit for like a year. Every single one of them could relocate easily, and then you get no tax revenue. Most "millionaires" in Finland are people who own property in Helsinki or Espoo, and most of those properties are less comfortable than what €300,000 gets you in the countryside. Once again, you're stuck with an image of rich people that appears to come from soap operas instead of reality. There's no hidden stash of money. It's the ultimate populist argument (after ending yritystuet and closing tax loopholes) to just tax the uber rich to fund our deficits, leaving the upper middle class engineers and doctors untouched. It's also a classic way for the left to try to appeal to people they will end up taxing out of their asses (see: Corbyn and his unexpected popularity among young doctors) It's like we have to bend laws for and appease every whim of the rich people. Otherwise we will invoke their anger. I have converted again. We must sacrifice our children at the altar of Baal-Hammon-Equity. Carthage was the original entrepreneurial empire. They were just oppressed by the populist godless romans!
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Aug 15, 2017 15:17
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It has also come to my attention that christians "cannot serve both God and mammon". I urge that my former brother in faith, Prime minister Sipilä, will also choose caananite-capitalist polytheism. The literal physical attacks on free market by the hippie called jesus should be alone enough of a reason to leave ecumenical free market lutheranism behind. Why would you worship a guy who says that you literally can't get to heaven because you are wealthy?
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Aug 15, 2017 15:47
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DarkCrawler posted:LMAO it's 2017 and we still got these kooks around It's been, ehm, let's say a bit over a decade since my lukio times, and one of the nicest girls in our class (like literally volunteer work for charitable stuff nice) once told me, smiling like a jakari, that she's only taking long biology because she wants to go into med school, she doesn't really believe in any of this evolution hodge-podge, but you have to know the answers to the entrance exam. I haven't facebook-stalked her to see where she ended up, but hopefully this is a motivational story for anyone who has to go to päivystys anytime soon!
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Aug 15, 2017 18:19
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If she similarly learned how to treat people like a doctor even though she doesn't really believe in that medical nonsense, it really makes no difference to the outcome. Makes u think, huh.
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Aug 15, 2017 19:37
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 Why are EuroPol posters so dumb?
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Aug 15, 2017 21:32
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Did anyone notice that Trump's rhetoric about both sides being at fault in the Charlottesville events are exactly the same as politicians on the right use here? Down to the detail that "not everyone there was a nazi" which people kept saying about the Independence Day nazi marches in Helsinki too.
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Aug 16, 2017 11:56
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Kemper Boyd posted:Did anyone notice that Trump's rhetoric about both sides being at fault in the Charlottesville events are exactly the same as politicians on the right use here? Right, except one key difference is that there a right winger drove a car into a crowd, here it's the left that are attacking shops and the torch march
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Aug 16, 2017 12:07
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Right, except one key difference is that there a right winger drove a car into a crowd, here it's the left that are attacking shops and the torch march Yes I agree with your point; the right is worse than the left 
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Aug 16, 2017 12:15
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Kemper Boyd posted:Did anyone notice that Trump's rhetoric about both sides being at fault in the Charlottesville events are exactly the same as politicians on the right use here? Does pointing this out make you as bad as the average D&D-er?
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Aug 16, 2017 12:17
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Hey Pentti Linkola has a biography, and it's coming to a book store near you soon.HS posted:Linkola kirjoitti Vihreän liikkeen periaateohjelmaksi nimeämänsä monisteen, jota hän esitteli puolueeksi järjestäytymistä pohtineiden vihreiden kokouksessa Tampereella 1986.
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Aug 16, 2017 13:13
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Rexroom posted:Hey Pentti Linkola has a biography, and it's coming to a book store near you soon. I think there might be some problems achieving all these changes.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:15
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Geriatric Pirate posted:There are literally under 10 billionaires in Finland with a total wealth that would fund our budget deficit for like a year. Every single one of them could relocate easily, and then you get no tax revenue. Most "millionaires" in Finland are people who own property in Helsinki or Espoo, and most of those properties are less comfortable than what €300,000 gets you in the countryside. Once again, you're stuck with an image of rich people that appears to come from soap operas instead of reality. There's no hidden stash of money. It's the ultimate populist argument (after ending yritystuet and closing tax loopholes) to just tax the uber rich to fund our deficits, leaving the upper middle class engineers and doctors untouched. It's also a classic way for the left to try to appeal to people they will end up taxing out of their asses (see: Corbyn and his unexpected popularity among young doctors) A) "Finns aren't that rich you guys" just doesn't work anymore. The division of wealth is not as blatant as worldwide (something Finland needs to combat more then it does now) but it is blatant enough. The richest tenth owns half. That's not desirable any more then richest literal ten people owning half in like Angola, even if the last example is worse. So tax the rich more. If their wealth is tied in property, tax that. They are still rich and thriving after. After that you can look at the middle class. B) Your picture of the rich is garnered from some bizarre Randian ubermensch fantasy. Most people like living in the countries they were born and have lived their whole lives. Rich people are still you know, people. Immigrants are still not that huge part of the whole population. It may be a bigger percentage among the rich, but they are still human beings. If their taxes rise but they still have millions or hundreds of millions afterwards, they'll grumble and lobby but very few of them will go through the trouble of moving. They're all going to go to Panama, Monaco or Luxembourg? Why aren't they doing that now if all they care about is fat stacks? What is this mysterious breaking point of taxes where a rich person fucks off somewhere else? It's the hidden and/or unfair movement and concentration of capital that has to be curtailed, and Finland has to work towards that in the international arena at the same time it works towards it at home. EU loses hundreds of billions to tax dodging alone. Most money, least people affected, and anyone who is affected is still ridicolously wealthy afterwards. Sounds pretty good to me. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 14:31
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Rexroom posted:Hey Pentti Linkola has a biography, and it's coming to a book store near you soon. Finally some common sense in Finnish politics.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:45
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Gortarius posted:I think there might be some problems achieving all these changes. To be fair, would that be a change compared to the current government?
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Aug 16, 2017 14:49
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DarkCrawler posted:A) "Finns aren't that rich you guys" just doesn't work anymore. The division of wealth is not as blatant as worldwide (something Finland needs to combat more then it does now) but it is blatant enough. The richest tenth owns half. That's not desirable any more then richest literal ten people owning half in like Angola, even if the last example is worse. So tax the rich more. If their wealth is tied in property, tax that. They are still rich and thriving after. After that you can look at the middle class. The "richest 10%" (and this is households, so not even individuals) have networths of €460,000 or greater though, so we're not even talking about millionaires. A far cry from your earlier quote:And again, not one red cent should be cut from anyone else until the millionnaires and billionnaires, people who live lifestyles 90% of people can only dream of Now of course this is Statistics Finland data which means it underestimates the value of properties and stuff you explicitly avoid telling the tax man, but it should tell you something about how realistic your ideas are. Once again, it boils down to you thinking that there is some huge class of millionaires who drink champange for breakfast out there not paying any tax while in reality the truth is that we're a pretty equal country. And there's a difference between "they won't move if taxes rise" referring to small tax increases (I agree, they won't move) but your plan to not tax the "middle class" any more until you've taxed billionaires when the total wealth held by billionaires barely covers our deficit for the next year should tell you that maybe the kind of tax increases you are imagining might have a different effect..
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Aug 16, 2017 15:18
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Re: Linkola,quote:Onko Suomessa nyt mitään puoluetta, jonka kanssa tunnette hengenheimolaisuutta? Finally, something both ääripäät in this säie can identify with! 
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Aug 16, 2017 16:44
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Right, except one key difference is that there a right winger drove a car into a crowd, here it's the left that are attacking shops and the torch march The rally had been perfectly peaceful until day two when black clad masked Antifa guys and BLM supporters were bused there en masse, and then started attacking the torch march with stones and cement bottles and poo poo. So not so different from here, eh? What was different though was that the police didn't separate the groups and do their duty (LIKE THEY DO HERE) but instead told the rally to disperse, the groups became mingled and chaos ensued while the cops did nothing, at which point the car (apparently having been attacked by bat wielding thugs) sped away and crashed into another can and lots of people were hurt.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:07
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"I HAVE to defend these nazis" -Ligur
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Aug 16, 2017 17:09
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Andrast posted:"I HAVE to defend these nazis" -Ligur How am I defending them? That is an accurate description of the events. I don't agree with many of the views of the alt-right rally speakers so uhhh that's not defending them is it. e: and of course the white supremasists and other dicks in the rally were happy to fight antifa, I didn't say innocent angels were attacked by evil antifaskistit, sitä vaan, että tapahtuma OLI ollut rauhallinen ja kaikki luvat kunnossa, kunnes naamiomiehet- ja tytöt ilmestyivät sinne riehumaan also the driver really was a far-right nut, I'm not trying to defend that, mutta se narratiivi jossa "natsit nyt siellä vaan hulluna riehuivat ihan oma-aloitteisesti" on väärä Ligur fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 17:12
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DarkCrawler posted:They're all going to go to Panama, Monaco or Luxembourg? Why aren't they doing that now if all they care about is fat stacks? What is this mysterious breaking point of taxes where a rich person fucks off somewhere else? Warren Buffet famously said that if he would care about taxes, he'd move to South Dakota because he'd save millions. He prefers to stay in Omaha.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:27
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lol Warren Buffet net worth ~70 MILJARDIA tjsp ei muuta Dakotaan säästääkseen miljoonia omg hyvä esimerkki vai oliko tuo vitsi
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Aug 16, 2017 17:38
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The "richest 10%" (and this is households, so not even individuals) have networths of €460,000 or greater though, so we're not even talking about millionaires. "Or greater" being the point. Let's begin with the 45,000 people who do have wealth in excess of a million, then we can go at the struggling people on leipäjonot who have a mere half million of wealth. Efficiency and fairness. quote:http://www.stat.fi/til/vtutk/2013/vtutk_2013_2015-04-01_tau_001_fi.html My ideas are not realistic because of a lot of things, mainly lack of political will, lobbying, blatant corruption and useful idiots who don't even pretend to give a poo poo about anyone else then the rich despite not being rich themselves, none of them are because the money is not there. quote:Once again, it boils down to you thinking that there is some huge class of millionaires who drink champange for breakfast out there not paying any tax while in reality the truth is that we're a pretty equal country. We are equal in comparison to other countries, we are not equal. 50% of the wealth in the hands of 10% who have done nowhere enough labor to earn it is not equal, it is something else. quote:And there's a difference between "they won't move if taxes rise" referring to small tax increases (I agree, they won't move) but your plan to not tax the "middle class" any more until you've taxed billionaires when the total wealth held by billionaires barely covers our deficit for the next year should tell you that maybe the kind of tax increases you are imagining might have a different effect.. Nah it goes billionaires > millionaires > still rich > upper middle class > lower middle class > poor > subsistence living crazy people and drug addicts. We haven't taxed the billionaires enough, in Finland or worldwide. We only have one billionaire so that's a good way to get millions with bothering just one person. When were done there, we can go at the millionaires, and so on. The problem with people like you is that for some bizarre reason you want to start from the middle or from the wrong direction altogether. Also I never said middle class shouldn't be taxed. I said that they shouldn't be taxed until the classes above are taxed enough which right now they are not. EDIT: Apparently we have five billionaires now but hey, still talking about not that many people! DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 18:08
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Ligur posted:
Really? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/charlottesville-violence-right-left-trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally#Event_timeline quote:At the Rotunda, the group encountered counterprotesters next to a statue of university founder Thomas Jefferson.The white nationalists encircled the smaller group of counterprotesters at the base of the statue, and a brawl ensued. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/08/torch-wielding-white-nationalists-march-at-uva quote:Police declared the march an unlawful assembly Now actually, about thirty seconds of googling (I haven't actually followed the events when they have been occuring, I just know that 90% of the time Ligur posts something it has to be complete bullshit that can be countered with basic media literacy) tells us that the white nationalists had an unlawful assembly and fought with a smaller number of (university students, so hardly some black block hardcore militants) counter-protesters even before the rally had started, against the orders of the authorities. A person who is wrong posted:The rally had been perfectly peaceful until day two ^wrong. Because the "day two" Ligur is talking is day ONE of the rally. But who's surprised? 
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Aug 16, 2017 19:41
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Besides, does anyone give a poo poo if nazis demonstrate peacefully or not? They're still, you know, nazis?
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Aug 16, 2017 20:34
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If they demonstrate violently, the people being beaten with metal pipes would much prefer they be peaceful instead. 
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Aug 17, 2017 05:07
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