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I think it's possible that the Echo actually represents a form of Hydaelyn tempering though I kinda hope that's not the direction they go. Awakening to the Echo involves hearing Hydaelyn's voice and makes you immune to tempering by primals. Is that because you're being tempered by Hydaelyn and now nothing else can get you because you're already "claimed?" The other possibility, and maybe the intended one, is that the Echo is something inherent in a person's soul that needs to be awoken through calling to ancient soul-memories of the Final Days, the implication being that it's a power you can awaken to because your soul is one of the sundered Ancient souls. Though if that was the case, shouldn't the Unsundered be immune to tempering, too? Why are they able to be tempered by Zodiark? Is it just that Zodiark is so powerful that his ability to temper can break through the Echo? Would Hydaelyn be powerful enough for that, too? Though I guess the strongest evidence against the idea that Hydaelyn is tempering people is that every other instance of tempering we've seen requires you to be in the physical presence of the being that tempers you. That never happens with Hydaelyn. You have visions of her, but she's never physically present, much like Zodiark. The Ascians could be tempered by Zodiark because they were present at his summoning, but that's not the case for you and Hydaelyn. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 20:20
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Harrow posted:The other possibility, and maybe the intended one, is that the Echo is something inherent in a person's soul that needs to be awoken through calling to ancient soul-memories of the Final Days, the implication being that it's a power you can awaken to because your soul is one of the sundered Ancient souls. Though if that was the case, shouldn't the Unsundered be immune to tempering, too? Why are they able to be tempered by Zodiark? Is it just that Zodiark is so powerful that his ability to temper can break through the Echo? Would Hydaelyn be powerful enough for that, too? This is explicit, and the echo isn't an immunity to tempering. It merely gives one the ability to resist.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:22
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Harrow posted:I think it's possible that the Echo actually represents a form of Hydaelyn tempering though I kinda hope that's not the direction they go. Awakening to the Echo involves hearing Hydaelyn's voice and makes you immune to tempering by primals. Is that because you're being tempered by Hydaelyn and now nothing else can get you because you're already "claimed?" Lahabrea talks about how don't really know how to use the echo properly like the Ascians at the end of the Aetherochemical dungeon, and again Elidibus doing his fake star show is explicitly to awaken the echo in people - then they start to hear Hydaelyn. I think they even explicitly lay out that Hydaelyn is just calling out to people with the echo constantly to get them on her side before the Ascians get to them. The echo probably just functions similar to the immune system - it can still get overwhelmed. We've never seen anyone with it go up against a giant crystal mountain.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:24
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:This is explicit, and the echo isn't an immunity to tempering. It merely gives one the ability to resist. TGLT posted:Lahabrea talks about how don't really know how to use the echo properly like the Ascians at the end of the Aetherochemical dungeon, and again Elidibus doing his fake star show is explicitly to awaken the echo in people - then they start to hear Hydaelyn. I think they even explicitly lay out that Hydaelyn is just calling out to people with the echo constantly to get them on her side before the Ascians get to them. Ah okay, that makes sense. Also now makes me curious how the WoL will avoid being tempered by Zodiark in the event that we actually confront him.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:24
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If physical presence is required, neither Azem nor us have ever been physically in Hydaelyn's presence.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:25
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Harrow posted:Ah okay, that makes sense. Love, friendship, and an army of porxies snorting 'round the clock
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Nov 12, 2021 20:26
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Direct presence seems to be required, except for Bahamut / Darnus. Although she and the other researchers had a direct line to Dalamud which probably helped.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:27
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I think it's less direct physical presence and more whether the primal can direct their aether at some one without it dissipating on the way. Lakshmi's not very strong and needs to be there in person. Bahamut's very strong and can no scope headshot some one as long as he has them on the phone. I wouldn't be surprised if the echo's protection against tempering has to do with its function as supernatural memory. Like the soul's ability to remember how its mind and body's aether is supposed to be arranged, letting it retain their composition in response to efforts to alter it. Might also be why Lahabrea and Igeyorhm can do their fusion dance then split apart after they're done. edit: Although I guess echo is more often just supernatural empathy, which I dunno at that point.
TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 20:34
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It might be something like you can't be tempered if your aether is denser/stronger than the being trying to do the tempering? So pre-sundering Zodiark could temper Ancients but post-sundering it might not have the power. And the WoL can no sell poo poo primals like Ifrit because we're a big walking aether battery
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Nov 12, 2021 20:40
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I doubt zodiark has much of a personality without elidibus. When they called him the "heart" they probably mean passion/desire. Like it could probably still do stuff if the ancients told it to, but it's mostly a blank slate.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:46
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Emet also refers to Zodiark as "the will of the planet" which would be a bit strange if Elidibus was his will, because Elidibus isn't the planet. Given how important the perception of the summoner is, there's something more going on here.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:53
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FuturePastNow posted:It might be something like you can't be tempered if your aether is denser/stronger than the being trying to do the tempering? So pre-sundering Zodiark could temper Ancients but post-sundering it might not have the power. And the WoL can no sell poo poo primals like Ifrit because we're a big walking aether battery Maybe. If that ends up being the case then I wonder if your soul has to be a certain density to be able to awaken to the echo, or if gaining the echo makes your soul extra dense. Hopefully Endwalker goes a bit more into why some people get the echo and others don't.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:53
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TGLT posted:Love, friendship, and an army of porxies snorting 'round the clock I’m imagining the WoL making a suit with a bunch of porxies tied to them
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Nov 12, 2021 20:54
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TGLT posted:Maybe. If that ends up being the case then I wonder if your soul has to be a certain density to be able to awaken to the echo, or if gaining the echo makes your soul extra dense. Hopefully Endwalker goes a bit more into why some people get the echo and others don't. Only people who are reincarnations of Amurotine souls can get the echo. It probably doesn't have anything to do with soul density since people on the First can get the Echo fine.
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Nov 12, 2021 20:58
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continuing on from main thread: the Sahagin priest has the echo and is tempered by Leviathan, all ascians by definition have the echo (body-hopping is an echo power, echo is the memory of the final days which are their whole thing) and are tempered. There's much more going on with the whole echo/blessing/tempering situation than we're fully aware of at this point in time, and I think that there are a lot of possible answers to any of these that result in wol being tempered.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:04
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The Unsundered were tempered. The sundered ascians are not, and they have the same powers.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:05
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I'd guess that since the Echo just provides resistance to tempering, you can still be willingly tempered. Didn't Emet say (or at least imply) that the Ascians' tempering by Zodiark was willing?
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Nov 12, 2021 21:06
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The Echo does not make you immune to tempering. Can you expand on this? We know Ascians are tempered by Zodiark but they poured their entire society and everything they had into His summoning.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:06
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WrightOfWay posted:Only people who are reincarnations of Amurotine souls can get the echo. It probably doesn't have anything to do with soul density since people on the First can get the Echo fine. The line of thought was about tempering resistance coming from aetheric density/strength. If that ends up being true, since everyone with the echo is immune to basic primal tempering then the simple lore mechanics for that would be the echo either leading to or being the consequence of a certain level of density/strength. But also I don't think there's anything in the game saying it's a uniquely ancient thing, just that the Ascians are really good at it. Aether manipulation isn't unique to the Amaurotines either. Mister Olympus posted:continuing on from main thread: Do we ever learn if the priest got the echo before or after getting tempered? Also the echo isn't the memory of the final days, it's soul resonance poo poo. Seeing visions of the final days awakens the echo in people though. jokes posted:I’m imagining the WoL making a suit with a bunch of porxies tied to them Tataru has her work cut out for her. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 21:06
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Yeah, the Echo not preventing tempering in any way conflicts with information we are directly told. Also, why is Fordola immune to tempering, then?
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Nov 12, 2021 21:07
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Chillgamesh posted:Can you expand on this? We know Ascians are tempered by Zodiark but they poured their entire society and everything they had into His summoning. Like Mister Olympus said, we meet a tempered sahagin with the echo. Zenos also tells you about it right before he hops into Shinryu - it's not an immunity, but lets you defend and/or enforce your own will.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:08
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Arist posted:Yeah, the Echo not preventing tempering in any way conflicts with information we are directly told. Also, why is Fordola immune to tempering, then? It's not that it doesn't in any way prevent tempering, but that it provides significant resistance to it. If that's the case, then I'd guess the Ascians allowed themselves to be tempered by Zodiark--they could have resisted but they chose not to. Maybe the tempered sahagin priest was the same way and allowed himself to be tempered by Leviathan.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:09
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Harrow posted:Didn't Emet say (or at least imply) that the Ascians' tempering by Zodiark was willing? No.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:11
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i bet that the wol really is tempered by crystal mom to protect the planet, and that the scene in the story trailer of them slumped over in the chair is after zenos uses some aumarotian hickey to ”cure” them, causing an existential crisis. this of course leading to soken version of youre not alone…
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Nov 12, 2021 21:11
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I feel like people should have just said that then
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Nov 12, 2021 21:12
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The worst thing about the Endwalker delay is 2 more weeks of awful fan theories.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:12
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Ah okay, it's been over two years since I played Shadowbringers MSQ and my brain is a sieve on even the best days
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Nov 12, 2021 21:12
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My guess is that the ascians were tempered without their will because tempering was not a known phenomenon prior to Zodiark, he being the first time someone really tried and succeeded to create an entity greater than themselves. Even if they had the echo or an equivalent, they wouldn't have known what to do with it.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:14
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It's not a huge reach that a sufficiently huge amount of power will overwhelm ANYTHING when it comes to Tempering, and a Primal created to be world-savingly strong by the Amurotians would probably be able to simply overwhelm their defenses outright. As for the Sahagan priest: Was he Tempered or simply outright faithful? And was what you saw when Leviathan ate him actually a warning that Primals can EAT spiritual beings, a warning Lahabrea failed to appreciate.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:14
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The impression I've gotten from everything they've provided is that the Echo simply provides an increased amount of soul power, making you more akin to what the ancients were like in terms of ability. It's a matter of scale: creatures with weak souls are easily tempered by primals, whereas creatures with immensely strong souls can turn the tables and take control of a primal themselves (ala Zenos), which is presumably what the ancients did a lot of the time with their own creations. People like you and Fordola are kind of in the middle: strong enough to resist tempering, but not strong enough to directly hijack a primal. In the case of the Ascians, it's the same thing: they could easily resist tempering and probably control most primals with ease, but Zodiark is composed of such an immense amount of aether that nothing normal could resist being tempered by it.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:15
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Vermain posted:People like you and Fordola are kind of in the middle: strong enough to resist tempering, but not strong enough to directly hijack a primal. Though poo poo, maybe WoL could now, with Ardbert's power joined with theirs. Then again WoL probably wouldn't even try, given how inherently destructive primals are and the WoL's ingrained instinct to punch any and all primals they encounter.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:17
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all fan theories are equally beautiful
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Nov 12, 2021 21:17
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Anyway my dumb fan theory is that since Zenos has shown both the ability to hijack a primal and the ability to keep his soul together after death and body-jack corpses like Ascians do, he could potentially hijack Zodiark, especially now that Zodiark has a very Ascian-shaped hole where his "heart" used to be.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:19
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Zenos does a lot of daft things, and honestly I think he's a result of several templates being stacked over time. There's no evidence of someone doing it before this. The Ascians certainly didn't try it, and it very well might have made things easier for them if they DID.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:19
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i think zenos is going to fight the wol
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Nov 12, 2021 21:22
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The worst thing about the Endwalker delay is 2 more weeks of awful fan theories. It’s fun you should try having fun sometimes
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Nov 12, 2021 21:32
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Harrow posted:Anyway my dumb fan theory is that since Zenos has shown both the ability to hijack a primal and the ability to keep his soul together after death and body-jack corpses like Ascians do, he could potentially hijack Zodiark, especially now that Zodiark has a very Ascian-shaped hole where his "heart" used to be. If Zenos ends up bodyjacking any of them, it will be Hydaelyn for the simple fact that it would make the WoL mad and more likely to fight him and for Zenos that's all that matters.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:32
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I think Zenos is going to fight the WoL, and when he loses he'll reveal he's been watching game design videos on gobtube and has now learned the concept of a "phase 3". He will then jump into Ultima Weapon Mk2 while Cid delivers us the G-Savior 30 as part of a crossover with Super Robot Wars.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:33
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jokes posted:It’s fun you should try having fun sometimes I'm trying but some of these would be booed out of a wow storyline.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:34
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Eimi posted:If Zenos ends up bodyjacking any of them, it will be Hydaelyn for the simple fact that it would make the WoL mad and more likely to fight him and for Zenos that's all that matters. Dude does love collecting weapons, and she's the biggest most god-killingest one ever summoned. Zodiark might be more powerful, but he's more a giant terraforming tool than a killing instrument.
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Nov 12, 2021 21:36
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