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Pedro De Heredia posted:US leftist Venezuela opinions would be more tolerable if they just accepted they lost. That's really what it comes down to, Venezuela is a loss for leftist politics. Agreed if everyone who disagreed with me believed some other stuff they do not irl, and then also conceded On-Line, it'd be far easier to talk on the forums.
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Jan 24, 2019 08:44
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If you believe there is a path to a Good and Nice Leftist Government immediately after Maduro, I'd like to see it.
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Jan 24, 2019 08:47
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fnox posted:You want to do something for Venezuelans right now? Do you want to show that you actually care? Donate to Caritas, yes, it's ran by the Catholic church but put that aside for just a second, it's the only reputable charity that is reliably getting help to Venezuelans right now. Call me whatever the gently caress you want, but please, if you're going to act like you care, put your money where your mouth is, there's a lot that these people can do with just 5 dollars. Dropping  .I want the Venezuelan people to be okay. Obviously they're not okay under Maduro, who's a crook - there's little debate there. If I saw a way forward for Venezuela to replace him with a non-rightist leader, who could last in the face of opposition from Trump and Bolsonaro and every other right-wing sociopath in this hemisphere, I'd feel more optimistic about this particular political episode. But I was an adult when the invasion of Iraq first happened. I'm seeing similarities between the leadup to that geopolitical debacle, and Trump and Bolton's desperate and long-held wish to invade Venezuela. It's disquieting, to say the least. If my country's government actually cared about the Venezuelan people, it would not involve itself in its politics in any way, shape, or form.
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Jan 24, 2019 08:49
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Pedro De Heredia posted:If you believe there is a path to a Good and Nice Leftist Government immediately after Maduro, I'd like to see it. gently caress what I believe leads to my personal preferences of what's good; we're talking categorical harm minimization. It is in Venezuela's best interest that Trump forgets Venezuela is distinct from Mexico immediately.
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Jan 24, 2019 08:58
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Willie Tomg posted:It is in Venezuela's best interest that Trump forgets Venezuela is distinct from Mexico immediately. In the same way that it's in my best interest to have an airbag if my car falls down the grand canyon.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:00
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Pedro De Heredia posted:In the same way that it's in my best interest to have an airbag if my car falls down the grand canyon. No, that's an absurd statement, which is a thing I can say about an attempt at a parallel descriptive statement in 2019 regarding an internet post because everything is just that stupid, now.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:10
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The BBC has an interesting sort of... interactive infographic thing? on how terrible El Helicoide is: https://el-helicoide.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/en/index.html
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Jan 24, 2019 09:12
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The problem with using 'harm minimization' as an argument is this: Ten years ago, the average leftist/left-leaning person who supported the Bolivarian revolution, if they had been asked to describe how bad things would get under the opposition, their description would probably be better than the current state of the country. So 'their' (as in, the broad 'left' community) credibility on these things is just not great. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 09:12
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Maybe just abandon metaphor altogether because reality is enough to be going on with.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:12
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The problem with using 'harm minimization' as an argument is this: Golly what could have happened in the last ten years to enculturate such a fuckup  thank God the barbarous [other latin nations] are not persons, and therefore unable to be blamed for their barbarous tendencies toward fascism.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:15
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Except, of course, the ones under discussion. Which are, weirdly, still under discussion in D&D. For some reason. Odd, that. You'd think there'd be a Honduran thread but: no.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:16
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The worse things get in Venezuela, the more people are likely to accept any alternative, no matter how horrendous it really is. That is why this current push is not certain to be worse than the status quo, because the status quo is 'increasingly catastrophic collapse of the country.' This is a logic that people don't have any problem in understanding when the government in question has an ideology they're glad to pin the backlash on. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 09:18
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Willie Tomg posted:thank God the barbarous [other latin nations] are not persons, and therefore unable to be blamed for their barbarous tendencies toward fascism. Are you having a stroke
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Jan 24, 2019 09:19
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Willie Tomg posted:It is in Venezuela's best interest that Trump forgets Venezuela is distinct from Mexico immediately. Either he is gonna get a call from Putin and set himself straight immediately or delegate the issue to crazy hawks, who knows
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Jan 24, 2019 09:19
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Are you having a stroke No it's just you jerking yourself off to your own comfort. lo siento. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2019 09:20
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fatherboxx posted:Either he is gonna get a call from Putin and set himself straight immediately or delegate the issue to crazy hawks, who knows At the risk of cross-contaminating threads of people who know something about anything at all, assuming the worst rumors about Trump and the FSB are true they'll induce him to enmesh the US military in south america as deep as possible in order to deflect as much attention from Donbass as possible. This is my damage with russia-gate and it mirrors my damage with 9-11 truthers: its not the absurd claim itself, its that it approaches the precipice of knowledge and then decides "ok. good enough for (non)Government Work!!" and the fucks off into uselessness through the most insane possible vectors while--and this is the infuriating part--assured they're anything but.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:28
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uninterrupted posted:Wow a lot of people itt want to turn Venezuela into Libya/Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria to get back their lovely corner store their family lost for price-gouging water. I'm backreading the thread but: gently caress you. You are a piece of poo poo. You are also an imbecile and have no idea what you're talking about so surely, of course, but you must be used to being called that, aren't you? I hope you get to experience loss of loved ones to crime, I hope your mother calls you crying in the middle of the night because she just got mugged by civil guards, that your grandmother dies because she couldn't find the medicine she needed, and that your family gets all of their savings stolen when suddenly the government decided they want to keep the private bank in which you had them stored. Maybe then you'll be less of a loving douche? It worked for me. Then again I never told exiles and refugees they deserved what they got. I'll eat my probation gladly if it means one day, when you find the little courage you may have and decide to speak these things out loud instead of in a forum and you're face to face with an angry Venezuelan, you remember me when he breaks your nose. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2019 09:30
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Willie Tomg posted:At the risk of cross-contaminating threads of people who know something about anything at all, assuming the worst rumors about Trump and the FSB are true they'll induce him to enmesh the US military in south america as deep as possible in order to deflect as much attention from Donbass as possible. Trump taking the side of the last person he talks to is pretty much a proven fact, especially in foreign policy issues, and does not require a tinfoil hat. Dunno if "regime change in South America" crowd in his team is stronger than "bomb bOMB BOMB Middle East" team and the latter one folded hard. Russia is already taking hard position on all of it since it had high hopes for Venezuela being a client state thanks to loans issued in the last years (non-imperialist loans and very woke oil production projects with Rosneft, obviously), so a phonecall is in order.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:40
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I'm backreading the thread but: You are literally describing the process of "civil forfeiture" in the USA. We wrote this corruption into "law" a century ago. Nobody likes it and yet it persists.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:41
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loving hell i wish i lived in a country where a family member dying for lack of affordable medicine was a news-worthy phonecall and not just a thing we saw coming five years ago and were frankly surprised it took this long to relapse.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:46
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Willie Tomg posted:You are literally describing the process of "civil forfeiture" in the USA. We wrote this corruption into "law" a century ago. Nobody likes it and yet it persists. I'm literally not? I personally know about six people that lost most of their savings when their bank was expropriated. These people weren't accussed of any wrong doing, the Chavez government just went "this is ours now" and paid a small part of what they appropriated from banks. But good to know the old tradition of making this about the USA is still alive in the thread. Willie Tomg posted:loving hell i wish i lived in a country where a family member dying for lack of affordable medicine was a news-worthy phonecall and not just a thing we saw coming five years ago and were frankly surprised it took this long to relapse. It's definitely not news, and the medicines she lacked were antibiotics. Not because she couldn't afford it, because we sent money to them (it was my ex's grandmother) there weren't any at the clinic she was rushed to and no other one did, either. But again it's just great that you can just make it about the USA. I'm glad my people are dying so you can get this chance to go "it's also bad here, look at us". Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 09:48
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I'm literally not? I personally know about six people that lost most of their savings when their bank was expropriated. These people weren't accussed of any wrong doing, the Chavez government just went "this is ours now" and paid a small part of what they appropriated from banks. Yeah thats how it works in the USA unless you're connected enough to fight it in court with lawyers who work on retainer for you, also this became about the USA the second USA news services started screaming about the need for "intervention" this morning. Again: congratulations, if this goes well beyond your wildest expectations you have only 30 more years of this to look forward to.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:51
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I'm so glad I live in a free society where I can get woken up with seven news alerts reporting the same thing in two minutes and decide for myself, with my own rational mind, "yep. that's a fuckin' fix figured out a week in advance." This is definitely worth all the dead at Bunker Hill and at this point even I'm not sure I'm joking anymore.
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Jan 24, 2019 09:56
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Willie Tomg posted:Yeah thats how it works in the USA unless you're connected enough to fight it in court with lawyers who work on retainer for you, also this became about the USA the second USA news services started screaming about the need for "intervention" this morning. Again: congratulations, if this goes well beyond your wildest expectations you have only 30 more years of this to look forward to. Please link a news article about the US taking over a bank and stealing the money therein from innocent people, I can't believe I'm ignorant to this, sounds awful and I'd like to be informed.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:00
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Please link a news article about the US taking over a bank and stealing the money therein from innocent people, I can't believe I'm ignorant to this, sounds awful and I'd like to be informed. No we just do it one by one. It's the personal touch from the DA that really sets us apart from the despotic holes of the Earth.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:02
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To the poeple who have donated: You guys are saints. I don’t know how Caritas handles the money they receive but depending on how they translate that to aid it is either a truckload of money or a fuckton of money It’s people like you that make life worth living
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Jan 24, 2019 10:14
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That's right, forget about Venezuela, US citizens are the ones who experience real oppression.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:15
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's right, forget about Venezuela, US citizens are the ones who experience real oppression. If you're going to give me a story about how bad you have it that literally, factually describes my own circumstances as if they're worth raising arms over then I'll commiserate. Because, get this: i don't even necessarily disagree
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Jan 24, 2019 10:18
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's right, forget about Venezuela, US citizens are the ones who experience real oppression. I think this comes from the same makers of “reverse racism” and “MRAs”
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Jan 24, 2019 10:21
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The starvation in Venezuela loving sucks! It sucks! The United States throws away ten times as much food per year as would feed Venezuela for two years in order to keep prices up artificially! That we have too much food stored is literally Our Biggest Problem in the trade war with China, presently! Same with Brazil! but we won't feed you. we didn't under Obama, we won't under Trump, we won't in the future. because we are not the good guys.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:22
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Are there any worthwhile charities besides Caritas? They keep declining both of my cards and I am so catastrophically embarrassed by western tankie shitheads (Willie Tomg pushed me over the edge!) that I feel like I have to donate something.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:23
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Gnumonic posted:Are there any worthwhile charities besides Caritas? They keep declining both of my cards and I am so catastrophically embarrassed by western tankie shitheads (Willie Tomg pushed me over the edge!) that I feel like I have to donate something. Fe y Alegria was good last I checked but it’s been a while. It’s also a catholic one but then again most of the Venezuelan charity apparatus seems to be, at least as far as I know
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Jan 24, 2019 10:26
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Furia posted:Fe y Alegria was good last I checked but it’s been a while. It’s also a catholic one but then again most of the Venezuelan charity apparatus seems to be, at least as far as I know This bring backs memories, I got fed by Fe y Alegría a couple of times, and also got some free school supplies from them. I'm not a fan of religious groups but they do a decent job. I've donated to them before, until I had to just send that money to my mother instead. Willie Tomg posted:
Just FYI, even if the us decided they are sending all the surplus food to Venezuela, Maduro does not accept foreign aid because everything is alright in Venezuela.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:33
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Fe y Alegria interfaces with MSF so they're Pretty drat Good. MSF and affiliated orgs are not in the habit of wasting donations. Hugoon Chavez posted:Just FYI, even if the us decided they are sending all the surplus food to Venezuela, Maduro does not accept foreign aid because everything is alright in Venezuela. Oddly, it has never come up in over a decade, even though it'd explicitly be in the interests of US farmers to decrease their supply. Not in Venezuela, not anywhere else in the world. Amazing. I guess everyone was just full.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:39
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I really don't mean to sound like a shithead, but is no one even the slightest bit suspicious of all this, though? It really does feel like some documents are gonna get declassified in 50 years and we'll all go "whoops, guess it was a US-orchestrated coup like all those other times after all". Especially in the context of the more general rollback of the Pink Tide.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:41
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I'm backreading the thread but: None of this gibberish disproves the fact that an American led coup or military intervention will undoubtedly make your living situation worse. And please, don't embarrassingly pretend the CIA/Pentagon gives a famine-induced gently caress about the wellbeing of your citizens, because they don't. I know you guys think we're just a bunch of tone-deaf gringos LARPing as Leninists up here, but get this: if Trump puts America in yet another military conflict, it's going to undoubtedly destabilize and accelerate the political and economic decline of our country further as well, and we don't loving want that.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:42
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Slutitution posted:None of this gibberish disproves the fact that an American led coup or military intervention will undoubtedly make your living situation worse. And please, don't embarrassingly pretend the CIA/Pentagon gives a famine-induced gently caress about the wellbeing of your citizens, because they don't. I know you guys think we're just a bunch of tone-deaf gringos LARPing as Leninists up here, but get this: if Trump puts America in yet another military conflict, it's going to undoubtedly destabilize and accelerate the political and economic decline of our country further as well, and we don't loving want that. That that’s what you read from that is really telling about what you are e: like honestly how do you read an impassioned response to some rear end in a top hat running in here yelling at us about cornershops and twist it into “we want intervention now”? What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Jan 24, 2019 10:44
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“We are not a bunch of tone deaf gringos” *immediately misrepresents what an actual Venezuelan is talking about, shits pants*
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Jan 24, 2019 10:49
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Furia posted:That that’s what you read from that is really telling about what you are I misread him as a different poster. Think of it as a rebuttal to the numerous Venezuelans ITT who are begging America to intervene against Maduro. And don't talk to me about tone when yet another giant American policy gently caress up is potentially about to happen here with consequences than will last for decades.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:51
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Slutitution posted:Venezuelans ITT who are begging America to intervene against Maduro. So nobody itt, got it. Why are you posting? Slutitution posted:And don't talk to me about tone when yet another giant American policy gently caress up is potentially about to happen here. “We are not a bunch of tone deaf gringos” *immediately starts demanding people do what he loving says, does not care about the actual content and grievances of Venezuelans*
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Jan 24, 2019 10:53
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