Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

asdf32 posted:

Heh didn't I already express my demand for a house cleaner (look for the part where I got called a murdering slave owner).

No one called you a murderer, you dumbass.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:01

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 04:18

Tom Clancy is Dead: Jul 13, 2011

Dr. Stab posted:

I'm pretty impressed that in the phrase "willingness and ability," the word that you failed to understand was "and."

Caros posted:

You have explained you have an infinite desire for human slaves, yes.

Say what you will about this thread, it produces some real zingers.

asdf, the black hole of need that you want to try to fill with infinite stuff is not a normal state of being. Most of us don't want to spend our time managing people who manage people who manage people who deal with our useless extra stuff.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:05

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Yeah it's funny how much baby-level econ 101 garble is based on taking the perverse desires of billionaires as universal.

President Kucinich posted:

And that's also why I hoard other people's garbage I find on the side of the road.

I have infinite demand for old console TVs that I find.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:20

President Kucinich: Feb 21, 2003; Bitterly Clinging to my AK47 and Das Kapital

Hoarders are just Say's Law enthusiasts.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:39

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

I have infinite demand for everything so I don't want to throw anything away. But I also have infinite demand for garbage pickup services.

Hmmmmmm

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:44

Caros: May 14, 2008

paragon1 posted:

I have infinite demand for everything so I don't want to throw anything away. But I also have infinite demand for garbage pickup services.

Hmmmmmm

I have infinite demand for demand itself. :aaaaa:

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:46

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

SedanChair posted:

Yeah it's funny how much baby-level econ 101 garble is based on taking the perverse desires of billionaires as universal.

I have infinite demand for old console TVs that I find.

This but unironically, playing old games on old TVs is great

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:54

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

paragon1 posted:

I have infinite demand for everything so I don't want to throw anything away. But I also have infinite demand for garbage pickup services.

Hmmmmmm

Well if you have infinite garbage you can throw away infinite things so it evens out.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:10

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

There's a lot of plywood in those things, and scrap metal. The goddess of trade compels me to break them down and stack their raw materials on pallets.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:13

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

asdf32 posted:

No it means you'd buy a larger house if it was free (or that generally most people would). Given that, what you should have said was "I don't want a larger apartment no matter what!". Which would have been smarter than what you wrote but still inadequate as a rebuttal.

Do you actually believe that this is a hill worth dying on? "Demand for some things could be infinite if those things are free!"

Not only is that a pointless argument but it's also wrong.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:14

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

QuarkJets posted:

Do you actually believe that this is a hill worth dying on? "Demand for some things could be infinite if those things are free!"

Not only is that a pointless argument but it's also wrong.

That's libertarianism in a nutshell at the moment, though. "Well in this theoretical world where X completely impossible thing is universally true libertarianism would totally usher in a magical utopia!" Well yeah in Theory Land it would work but this is, you know, Earth.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:17

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

I'm pretty sure 'infinite demand' is the description of Buddhist Hell.

Huh. I'm getting a morbid curiousity about the Mises article on Taoism. Too bad jrodefeld isn't here, I could ask him to post it for me.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:29

Cemetry Gator: Apr 3, 2007; Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?

asdf32 posted:

No it means you'd buy a larger house if it was free (or that generally most people would). Given that, what you should have said was "I don't want a larger apartment no matter what!". Which would have been smarter than what you wrote but still inadequate as a rebuttal.

If you're going to get into an economic conversation, I have a question for you:

How the hell can I buy something if it is free?

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:43

Caros: May 14, 2008

Rockopolis posted:

I'm pretty sure 'infinite demand' is the description of Buddhist Hell.

Huh. I'm getting a morbid curiousity about the Mises article on Taoism. Too bad jrodefeld isn't here, I could ask him to post it for me.

By which you mean you could ask his opinion on Taoism.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 05:32

Tom Clancy is Dead: Jul 13, 2011

Hey, Jrod, I have an actual legitimate question for you. How does libertarianism handle water rights? How does it prevent a libertarian from buying the land at the head of rivers and refusing to let black people get water?

# ? Apr 9, 2015 05:42

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

"I don't have to know exactly how it would work, you'd sign a contract or something and everything would work out fine"

# ? Apr 9, 2015 05:50

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Etalommi posted:

Hey, Jrod, I have an actual legitimate question for you. How does libertarianism handle water rights? How does it prevent a libertarian from buying the land at the head of rivers and refusing to let black people get water?

"Why would you want to prevent that?"

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:00

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Outer Narrative

QuarkJets posted:

"I don't have to know exactly how it would work, you'd sign a contract or something and everything would work out fine"

Inner Narrative

Nintendo Kid posted:

"Why would you want to prevent that?"

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:04

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

Etalommi posted:

Hey, Jrod, I have an actual legitimate question for you. How does libertarianism handle water rights? How does it prevent a libertarian from buying the land at the head of rivers and refusing to let black people get water?

I'm actually starting to miss jrode, and not just because asdf is more terrible and less interesting. I'm feeling pretty down and could really go for a round "why do you believe human decency needs to be mandated" "well here's a bunch of historical examples of basically nonstop atrocities committed against certain groups of people" "all of that only happened due to state coercion" right now.

paragon1 posted:

I have infinite demand for everything so I don't want to throw anything away. But I also have infinite demand for garbage pickup services.

Hmmmmmm

Could God make a demand so infinite even he couldn't meet it :raise:

makes u think

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:31

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Well if you have infinite garbage you can throw away infinite things so it evens out.

Just got to word your instructions right.

Put up a sign for the infinite garbage trucks lining up on the road to your house telling them to take every other pallet of your infinite hoard

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:51

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Right now I've got a craving for some challah bread. But what if I could have all of it

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:55

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

VitalSigns posted:

Just got to word your instructions right.

Put up a sign for the infinite garbage trucks lining up on the road to your house telling them to take every other pallet of your infinite hoard

half of infinite is still infinite.

but it's still giving away half of a thing, which I have infinite demand for.

i just realized i have an infinite demand for mathematicians to work out these problems for me.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 07:11

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

SedanChair posted:

Right now I've got a craving for some challah bread. But what if I could have all of it

You would never stop cramming it so long as the supply held out.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 07:11

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

Yeah, but there's no way to meet infinite demand; we are Tantalus, cursed to never slake our demand.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 12:24

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Rockopolis posted:

I'm pretty sure 'infinite demand' is the description of Buddhist Hell.

Huh. I'm getting a morbid curiousity about the Mises article on Taoism. Too bad jrodefeld isn't here, I could ask him to post it for me.

I'll delve into the depths for you.

Libertarianism in Ancient China posted:

The three main schools of political thought: the Legalists, the Taoists, and the Confucians, were established from the sixth to the fourth centuries BC. Roughly, the Legalists, the latest of the three broad schools, simply believed in maximal power to the state, and advised rulers how to increase that power. The Taoists were the world's first libertarians, who believed in virtually no interference by the state in economy or society, and the Confucians were middle-of-the-roaders on this critical issue.

[...]To the individualist Lao Tzu, government, with its "laws and regulations more numerous than the hairs of an ox," was a vicious oppressor of the individual, and "more to be feared than fierce tigers." Government, in sum, must be limited to the smallest possible minimum; "inaction" became the watchword for Lao Tzu, since only inaction of government can permit the individual to flourish and achieve happiness. Any intervention by government, he declared, would be counterproductive, and would lead to confusion and turmoil. The first political economist to discern the systemic effects of government intervention, Lao Tzu, after referring to the common experience of mankind, came to his penetrating conclusion: "The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished � The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be."

The worst of government interventions, according to Lao Tzu, was heavy taxation and war. "The people hunger because theft superiors consume an excess in taxation" and, "where armies have been stationed, thorns and brambles grow. After a great war, harsh years of famine are sure to follow."

Check the link, I didn't make this up I swear to god.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 12:32

asdf32: May 15, 2010; I lust for childrens' deaths. Ask me about how I don't care if my kids die.

QuarkJets posted:

Do you actually believe that this is a hill worth dying on? "Demand for some things could be infinite if those things are free!"

Not only is that a pointless argument but it's also wrong.

That demand exceeds supply? I'm not going to. It's a foundational assumption in economics which bears out in real life.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:26

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

asdf32 posted:

That demand exceeds supply? I'm not going to. It's a foundational assumption in economics which bears out in real life.

Which is why Atari had no problem selling all those copies of ET. Yep, demand always exceeds supply and there has never been a single failed product in all of human history. :jerkbag:

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:29

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

asdf32 posted:

That demand exceeds supply? I'm not going to. It's a foundational assumption in economics which bears out in real life.

Rofl. So we have idle industrial capacity and unemployment why?

Either demand creates supply or supply creates demand, but where are we getting this mystical infinite demand out of our rear end from when supply is not infinite?

Who What Now posted:

Which is why Atari had no problem selling all those copies of ET. Yep, demand always exceeds supply and there has never been a single failed product in all of human history.

He can mean what he says in aggregate. Your example is too micro.

Disinterested fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 9, 2015

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:29

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Who What Now posted:

Which is why Atari had no problem selling all those copies of ET. Yep, demand always exceeds supply and there has never been a single failed product in all of human history.

Oh, he never said it always exceeds supply, just generally. "Demand exceeds supply, except when it doesn't" is perfectly unobjectionable, no? Now let me tell you how I've been able to draw any kind of implication from this whatsoever: *wet fart noises*

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:32

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

John Steinbeck posted:

The decay spreads over the State, and the sweet smell is a great sorrow on the land. Men who can graft the trees and make the seed fertile and big can find no way to let the hungry people eat their produce. Men who have created new fruits in the world cannot create a system whereby their fruits may be eaten. And the failure hangs over the State like a great sorrow.

The works of the roots of the vines, of the trees, must be destroyed to keep up the price, and this is the saddest, bitterest thing of all. Carloads of oranges dumped on the ground. The people came for miles to take the fruit, but this could not be. How would they buy oranges at twenty cents a dozen if they could drive out and pick them up? And men with hoses squirt kerosene on the oranges, and they are angry at the crime, angry at the people who have come to take the fruit. A million people hungry, needing the fruit�and kerosene sprayed over the golden mountains.

And the smell of rot fills the country.

Burn coffee for fuel in the ships. Burn corn to keep warm, it makes a hot fire. Dump potatoes in the rivers and place guards along the banks to keep the hungry people from fishing them out. Slaughter the pigs and bury them, and let the putrescence drip down into the earth.

There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success. The fertile earth, the straight tree rows, the sturdy trunks, and the ripe fruit. And children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange. And coroners must fill in the certificate�died of malnutrition�because the food must rot, must be forced to rot.

The people come with nets to fish for potatoes in the river, and the guards hold them back; they come in rattling cars to get the dumped oranges, but the kerosene is sprayed. And they stand still and watch the potatoes float by, listen to the screaming pigs being killed in a ditch and covered with quick-lime, watch the mountains of oranges slop down to a putrefying ooze; and in the eyes of the people there is the failure; and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:47

asdf32: May 15, 2010; I lust for childrens' deaths. Ask me about how I don't care if my kids die.

Nolanar posted:

Oh, he never said it always exceeds supply, just generally. "Demand exceeds supply, except when it doesn't" is perfectly unobjectionable, no? Now let me tell you how I've been able to draw any kind of implication from this whatsoever: *wet fart noises*

Yeah pretty good starting point. I'd also have to define the two peices of demand again and go into short term vs long term, perhaps posting a GDP graph again to point out the long term trend and hows it's bounded primarily by supply not demand.

No, I'm on the record saying I really don't get what the implications are. It's y'all that seem to think there are some.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 14:39

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

asdf32 posted:

No, I'm on the record saying I really don't get what the implications are. It's y'all that seem to think there are some.

So you're retracting this, then

asdf32 posted:

Labor has more friction but the underlying logic is the same. First, businesses always want more workers. Personally, if labor was cheaper I'd have somone shovel my snow, clean my house and do my gardening. Price is literally the only thing preventing me from hiring people to do these things. Every business has the same list.

E: Is this like page 1 of the Libertarian handbook? Base an argument on a totally unrealistic premise and then if anyone calls that out, water that premise down to a vague useless tautology and declare victory, hoping no one notices that you've just dynamited the foundation of your previous argument.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Apr 9, 2015

# ? Apr 9, 2015 14:46

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

ASDF isn't a libertarian. He is contrarion.

He isn't Jrod, he is a shittier version of Fishmech.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:05

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

VitalSigns posted:

E: Is this like page 1 of the Libertarian handbook? Base an argument on a totally unrealistic premise and then if anyone calls that out, water that premise down to a vague useless tautology and declare victory, hoping no one notices that you've just dynamited the foundation of your previous argument.

It's definitely something I've noticed a lot with them, but usually it's in the opposite order: you lead with the soft formulation to get people on your side, then switch to the hard formulation to "prove" things from it. You can see it in other areas where people want to expand the definition of their ideology to make it seem popular, then narrow it to make their personal faction the only one that really counts. I'm sure there's a name for it, but I'm not sure what it is.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:41

asdf32: May 15, 2010; I lust for childrens' deaths. Ask me about how I don't care if my kids die.

VitalSigns posted:

So you're retracting this, then

E: Is this like page 1 of the Libertarian handbook? Base an argument on a totally unrealistic premise and then if anyone calls that out, water that premise down to a vague useless tautology and declare victory, hoping no one notices that you've just dynamited the foundation of your previous argument.

No. Tell me what you think needs to be retracted.

I hope that anyone would be capable of processing both long term and short term implications simultaneously (yep, even if they contradict each other). IE long term, supply bounds demand but in a recession the opposite is true.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 16:09

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

asdf32 posted:

No. Tell me what you think needs to be retracted.

Well personally I would have started with the part where you said you want to own slaves.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 16:14

RuanGacho: Jun 20, 2002; "You're gunna break it!"

Nolanar posted:

It's definitely something I've noticed a lot with them, but usually it's in the opposite order: you lead with the soft formulation to get people on your side, then switch to the hard formulation to "prove" things from it. You can see it in other areas where people want to expand the definition of their ideology to make it seem popular, then narrow it to make their personal faction the only one that really counts. I'm sure there's a name for it, but I'm not sure what it is.

Shitposting?

Haha! You now agree with my corrupt philosophy through word play I am ideologically superior!

Yeah ok.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 17:53

Muscle Tracer: Feb 23, 2007; Medals only weigh one down.

asdf32 posted:

I'm on the record saying I really don't get it

# ? Apr 9, 2015 18:05

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

asdf32 posted:

That demand exceeds supply? I'm not going to. It's a foundational assumption in economics which bears out in real life.

"Demand is infinite" does not follow from "demand exceeds supply". It's also not true in most markets, including labor.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 18:18

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 04:18

Muscle Tracer: Feb 23, 2007; Medals only weigh one down.

QuarkJets posted:

"Demand is infinite" does not follow from "demand exceeds supply". It's also not true in most markets, including labor.

one-step logic is not the specialty of this thread. 500-step logic with the interceding 498 steps excised, though? totally fine.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 18:31

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