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I just wish I could lead the Kings to supremacy, myself.
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Jul 5, 2017 04:00
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Hey, beats 4 where the only good choice is the one you're prevented from taking : Ruling the ruins of Boston from your skull throne as the Only Competent Person In The Wastes.
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Jul 5, 2017 04:20
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The real shame in 4 is that you can't conquer the Commonwealth in the name of the Atom Cats.
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Jul 5, 2017 04:25
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unseenlibrarian posted:The real shame in 4 is that you can't conquer the Commonwealth in the name of the Atom Cats. Word.
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Jul 5, 2017 04:56
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unseenlibrarian posted:The real shame in 4 is that you can't conquer the Commonwealth in the name of the Atom Cats. I can only hope some extremely talented modder is listening.
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Jul 5, 2017 08:54
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Oh please. We all know that the only legitimate political entity post-2077 is the Republic of Dave. 
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Jul 5, 2017 09:04
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unseenlibrarian posted:The real shame in 4 is that you can't conquer the Commonwealth in the name of the Atom Cats.
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Jul 5, 2017 13:37
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A Powder Gangers Blow Up the Dam ending would be amazing, no lie.
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Jul 5, 2017 13:39
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Dr. Quarex posted:Yeah I mean my Powder Gangers post was ironic but this is an unironically valid point. Best faction ever. Honestly I was not even joking, but I am also mad that there was no 'participate in Beat Poetry Night" quest for the Atom Cats, because if you've got a voice-acted PC, why would you -not- give them a chance to recite beat poetry by picking options in the dialogue wheel?
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Jul 5, 2017 17:19
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unseenlibrarian posted:Honestly I was not even joking, but I am also mad that there was no 'participate in Beat Poetry Night" quest for the Atom Cats, because if you've got a voice-acted PC, why would you -not- give them a chance to recite beat poetry by picking options in the dialogue wheel? Because Fallout 4 may as well have carried the subtitle "A Post-Nuclear Missed Opportunities Game"
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Jul 5, 2017 17:27
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Because Fallout 4 may as well have carried the subtitle "A Post-Nuclear Missed Opportunities Game" "A post-nuclear sanitation and town defense simulator."
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Jul 5, 2017 17:30
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There's a reason FO4 isnt the game Bethesda is porting and rereleasing to every loving platform
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Jul 5, 2017 17:37
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At some point, every SA thread will be about JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:44
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So, I'm in day two of a reddit argument (because I am an rear end in a top hat with little to do right now) about creating derogatory names for d&d races, and I'm just looking for someone else to weigh in on this. I fully believe that you can't deal with an issue without talking about it (Merchant of Venice), but don't we do this hobby a disservice by continuing to make real world style racism an in game issue? Dude was looking for offensive things to call Drow, and this really cut me to the quick. The portrayal of the Drow is an issue in itself, but should we encourage the need to otherize any d&d race? I was really happy when d&d started to move away from the "Always Evil" alignment descriptions and embrace the idea not of moral relativism but of individualism. I'm a giant honkey, and over the course of my life many people I meet assume I am of German descent and that would mean I was agreeable to bigotry (I remember in highschool having to change my math class because the neonazi's in class assumed I was one of them), so maybe I am overly sensitive to racism. But I'm asking you, where is the line in a game? Why include ideas that we know are harmful, gate keeping problems in our games? I know that some of my friends have really liked it when they got to beat up KKK analogs in Shadowrun, but is that kind of catharsis good for the hobby as a whole, or does is just feed into the cycle of violence and reprisal that oppressing classes use to justify their bigotry?
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Jul 5, 2017 17:50
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I stopped at "make derogative names for Drow" and I have one OP: "Spiderfucker". There you go.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:51
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Man, r/rpg is the sort of place that sides with White Wolf over the pedophile playtest, and where you still get "4e is a paper MMO" every single day. I agree with you, Garl, but I noped the gently caress out of that conversation from a mile away.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:58
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I think racism in fiction can be used to illustrate issues that happen in real life, but it really depends on how you use it. The use of 'spoonhead' in DS9 was used, as an example, to show that even a near-utopian civilization like the Federation can still be racist when push comes to shove. If the use of the derogatory term is used to highlight issues of racism with a particular character/culture within fiction, and how this relates to real life racism, I don't see an issue with it. If it's used simply as a means for the characters to have something that they consider 'funny' to say, there's an issue.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:59
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Tekopo posted:I think racism in fiction can be used to illustrate issues that happen in real life, but it really depends on how you use it. The use of 'spoonhead' in DS9 was used, as an example, to show that even a near-utopian civilization like the Federation can still be racist when push comes to shove. If the use of the derogatory term is used to highlight issues of racism with a particular character/culture within fiction, and how this relates to real life racism, I don't see an issue with it. If it's used simply as a means for the characters to have something that they consider 'funny' to say, there's an issue. Apparently the fact that a member of Starfleet used the term really pissed off the higher ups, the writers snuck it in because the character who said it was a background character and thus was incidental dialog that didn't need to go though S&P.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:20
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Also in a movie or tv show the writers have complete control over the script. In an RPG, you're handing plot and setting tools over to players, who can and will be horrible. Not that scriptwriters are never horrible, but you can at least judge them based on their specific results. E.g., this is really down to a GM and their players. Probably there exist groups that could have racist epithets as part of the setting they're playing with, and deal with that in a mature and interesting way that doesn't involve being racists themselves. But no game designer should presume that of all their customers.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:26
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gradenko_2000 posted:
Thanks, I just want more people to think about things more than they do (plus I'm an rear end in a top hat).
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Jul 5, 2017 18:34
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Garl_Grimm posted:I know that some of my friends have really liked it when they got to beat up KKK analogs in Shadowrun, but is that kind of catharsis good for the hobby as a whole, or does is just feed into the cycle of violence and reprisal that oppressing classes use to justify their bigotry? The wonderful thing about tabletop RPGs is that every group has a developer and storyteller who can design personally for the 4-6 people sitting at their table. I think the subject matter you're describing is really easy to gently caress up and even if you do everything right, it's very possible that someone wouldn't want to deal with discrimination as part of their power fantasy, even if they get to kick the KKK But With Literal Dragons' rear end. So if you're writing a setting be up front that that's a part of what it's about, and if you're running a game then check with your players.
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Jul 5, 2017 21:51
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Totally true, but I think we have a responsibility as members of this hobby to shape it in a more inclusive form where people don't assume we are all basement dwelling creeps with unsavory fixations on Frazetta style artwork and social cues taken from Howard and Lovecraft. Threading the needle of offense is definitely something that we all have to deal with in games and media. I've had players ask me to not deal with sensitive issues (rape, slavery, racism) and I've had other players ask that I deal with those ideas for their backgrounds (space game, player wanted to be artificially inseminated by 'grey's' against her will to deal with alien human hybrids/ mixed ancestry). Being open to the conversation and being respectful of your players is always a good idea, but I'm more talking about how we represent games and gamers in the public square. For example, I really like PbtA games, but man do I have to get to a point where I know my players are going to be ok with the Sex Moves, or just the idea of Sex Moves. I think they are important for the game that AW is trying to be, but are they good for the hobby? Are they a barrier or a gate keeper, or can they show that games are about more than killing and looting? It comes down to how you use and explain them, but man, that can be a hard sell for some people.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:05
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Here's the thing the new Vampire devs don't seem to understand is that if you narrow your focus down to a very specific audience, you'll get a percentage of that audience at best. Now if you write a more broadly appealing game you won't get as much of that audience, but you'll get a percentages of all the other audiences too. That used to work all the time in the TV business but now choices have gotten too high, but also you don't have a captive audience like in TV either, if Jimmy doesn't want to play nuVamp his oldVamp books still work. Or he can play a completely different game, or hell he can homebrew up vampire rules into any game he wants! But aiming for a small niche market and expecting commercial success when the general market wants nothing to do with your product is just dooming yourself to failure. I don't expect Swedish Dracula to still be in charge when it comes time to print Werewolf.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:13
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Designing for a niche -- or even better, just having a creative vision and the audience can take it or leave it -- makes better games than any amount of massaging a product to appeal to everyone. It also makes worse ones, but that's the price you pay. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 22:15
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I agree that they are a hard sell, but a genre completely excised of all sexuality, no matter how it is done, is not the way to go. I think there is a difference between something truly problematic, exclusive etc and games that use those aspects to meaningful impact the game and make people think about the implications of racism etc. For example, I ran a game of Night Witches which necessarily had to deal with themes of sexism, propaganda and death. i think it's more important to create well made games that are either fun or give interesting messages: that will get people into the hobby more than worrying about what people will think if they see that AW has "sex moves".
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Jul 5, 2017 22:20
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I would argue that it is possible to make a game that addresses some very serious and very tricky to navigate real world issues. However, they need to clearly sign post that they are about those issues so that groups can make an informed opt-in. And more importantly, they should probably be written by people who are directly effected by those issues. And if the designers aren't part of that group, they should at the very least hire people who are to help make sure that the game is sensitive and inclusive and accurate.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:22
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Hiring one person who has half a clue about the issue you are talking about is why Demon: The Descent has interesting and compelling rules about pregnancy and Werewolf: the Forsaken 1e has dogshit "murder you from the inside" rules for pregnancy.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:27
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Gerund posted:Hiring one person who has half a clue about the issue you are talking about is why Demon: The Descent has interesting and compelling rules about pregnancy and Werewolf: the Forsaken 1e has dogshit "murder you from the inside" rules for pregnancy. It's also a big reason of why I'm pumped for Scion 2e, but feel fairly icky every time I look at Scion 1e.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:29
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It bears mentioning we also have a generation of TT gamers that does not know Vampire. d20 (and to a lesser extent, 4th) did a lot to introduce a lot of new folks, and the fact Vampire effectively exited the stage as far as new players went was part of White Wolf's downfall. I love Requiem, but it was targeted largely to existing players. You can milk the World of Darkness nostalgia and make a profit, to be sure, but that's not a growing market. It's possible that if they get a successful video game or two out of it, that might spark more interest. But it seems like they're more interested in making Vampire this niche edgelord thing that I don't think plays as nearly as well now as it did twenty years ago.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:35
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It bears mentioning we also have a generation of TT gamers that does not know Vampire. d20 (and to a lesser extent, 4th) did a lot to introduce a lot of new folks, and the fact Vampire effectively exited the stage as far as new players went was part of White Wolf's downfall. I love Requiem, but it was targeted largely to existing players. You can milk the World of Darkness nostalgia and make a profit, to be sure, but that's not a growing market. It's possible that if they get a successful video game or two out of it, that might spark more interest. But it seems like they're more interested in making Vampire this niche edgelord thing that I don't think plays as nearly as well now as it did twenty years ago. Considering those fans are all 20 years older? I'd certainly say it doesn't play well. For the vast majority of them the edgelord thing was a phase they grew out of and got jobs and while some of them are still involved in tabletop, they're not going to look twice at nuVampire, they've got kids now.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:41
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Maybe for North Americans because VtM is still strong here
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Jul 5, 2017 22:48
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It bears mentioning we also have a generation of TT gamers that does not know Vampire. d20 (and to a lesser extent, 4th) did a lot to introduce a lot of new folks, and the fact Vampire effectively exited the stage as far as new players went was part of White Wolf's downfall. I love Requiem, but it was targeted largely to existing players. You can milk the World of Darkness nostalgia and make a profit, to be sure, but that's not a growing market. It's possible that if they get a successful video game or two out of it, that might spark more interest. But it seems like they're more interested in making Vampire this niche edgelord thing that I don't think plays as nearly as well now as it did twenty years ago. Where's the late-2010s equivalent of Anne Rice novels? Or Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, and Bauhaus? Or The Crow? Hell, a big-budget Tom Cruise movie involving a sexy immortal monster being let loose in the modern world utterly cratered last month. That particular cultural wellspring seems to have run dry at the moment. e: I guess the closest thing to Anne Rice novels would be those Twilight books from last decade, but even those are 180 degrees opposite Anne Rice's approach to vampires (a chaste teen romance with vampires that sparkle in sunlight is not really very WoD at all.)
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Jul 5, 2017 23:21
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I'm 22 and I'm into WoD (though WoD 2017 looks like loving dogshit and I am entirely on the Onyx Path/CoD train), and I basically bumbled into a group at a hookah bar instead of seeking it out on my own. It's still around.FMguru posted:Where's the late-2010s equivalent of Anne Rice novels? Or Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, and Bauhaus? Or The Crow? Hell, a big-budget Tom Cruise movie involving a sexy immortal monster being let loose in the modern world utterly cratered last month. That particular cultural wellspring seems to have run dry at the moment. The Underworld and Resident Evil movies basically have this niche on lock. Also, the old things are still around- The Crow is pretty much perpetually on Netflix and a lot of people in my generation love it, and NIN and Manson are still pretty popular (I literally went to a NIN/Soundgarden show a couple years ago at a huge venue that was packed), though Bauhaus are a little more obscure.
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Jul 5, 2017 23:24
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I love The Crow but I like it for its silliness, to which its Gothiness contributes, not the other way around.
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Jul 5, 2017 23:26
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, nobody's like, that into it anymore, but it's pretty widely regarded as a dope movie with a dope soundtrack
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Jul 5, 2017 23:28
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Similarly the most appealing and enduring part of the nWoD to me is the Gnostic revolutionaries vibe, the whole "God is a monster but maybe you actually have a shot against him" stuff. It's something that's obviously non-existent in Vampire, would probably turn your own community against you in Werewolf even if it's technically doable, and is frequently undermined in Mage with "but maybe everyone with power sucks and will always suck" despair. On the other hand it reaches its high point in Demon -- which, in a stroke of brilliance, creates the temptation to be just as much of a poo poo and a parasite as any vampire but then gives you real, playable alternatives that are heroic and probably doomed. Changeling has a pretty good take on it too, and while Promethean isn't exactly about that it's tonally compatible even the endgame of that line is far more personal. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 23:31
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I remember some discussions a little while back about goth and the WoD where some guy was claiming goth was still a vibrant subculture in Germany. I have no idea if that's true or it was just some sad aging goth guy on RPG.net (or both), but I've periodically wondered since Swedrac started his antics if there was a european subculture big enough to sustain what he's doing. I'm dubious, but my only other datapoints are my cousins in the Baltics, who consist of both metalheads and twilight fans. gently caress if I know what that means.
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Jul 6, 2017 02:12
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Well the Goths originated from the Baltics and Scandinavia then did several migrations southward during the first to third centuries so there might be a lot of them back there.
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Jul 6, 2017 02:16
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Desiden posted:I remember some discussions a little while back about goth and the WoD where some guy was claiming goth was still a vibrant subculture in Germany. I have no idea if that's true or it was just some sad aging goth guy on RPG.net (or both), but I've periodically wondered since Swedrac started his antics if there was a european subculture big enough to sustain what he's doing. I'm dubious, but my only other datapoints are my cousins in the Baltics, who consist of both metalheads and twilight fans. gently caress if I know what that means.  Yeah. I don't know if I'd call it a 'vibrant subculture' but it still exists in real life.
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Jul 6, 2017 02:33
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Desiden posted:I have no idea if that's true or it was just some sad aging goth guy on RPG.net (or both), but I've periodically wondered since Swedrac started his antics if there was a european subculture big enough to sustain what he's doing. There isn't. It was never huge even back in the day, no matter what the nostalgic 40-somethings claim.
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Jul 6, 2017 07:35
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