EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

GaussianCopula posted:

So ~49% voted against Brexit and they are not represented in parliament by any major party? hosed up if true.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 21:53

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:08

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

To be frank there are countries with more or less complex democratic processes&institutions and then there's the UK. With their ghost constitution and their countries that are not real countries but kinda are but are not really no, not really.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:00

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

GaussianCopula posted:

So ~49% voted against Brexit and they are not represented in parliament by any major party? hosed up if true.

You can be personally opposed to Brexit as a politician and still respect the result of the referendum.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:21

x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx: Jan 21, 2013

ahah what the hell is this, a facebook "friend" of mine has been sharing jpegs to support Manuel Valls for two weeks non-stop, usually about him creating more education positions (understandable since she's a teacher, I guess) and these just came up

I'm speechless, this party can't die soon enough

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:23

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

To be frank there are countries with more or less complex democratic processes&institutions and then there's the UK. With their ghost constitution and their countries that are not real countries but kinda are but are not really no, not really.

IMO every political system should be rebuilt from the ground up every 50-100 years to prevent ossified bullshit from sticking around long after anyone even remembers what it used to be for.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:26

ElNarez: Nov 4, 2009

x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:

I'm speechless, this party can't die soon enough

Valls is a dipshit that is pathologically unable to pretend, even for the sake of a primary, that he's a leftist. With Hamon, there's a chance, however slim, that the party survives to become the actual party of the left that it's supposed to be. Which is maybe the best option because I'm really not into M�lenchon thinking the way to reach the working class is to be as racist as Marine.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:53

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

Aight, what is Jean-Luc M�lenchon's stance on Europe, and his EU policy? His programme answers this question with a series of bullet points. The translation is mine, it is mediocre because I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the major points will be clear enough.

The first element of his European policy is that he plans to make France unilaterally stop following certain policies that are mandated by the EU:

L'avenir en Commun, chapter 49 posted:

49.�To undertake immediate and unilateral policies to safeguard the interests of France, in order to apply our electoral programme

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties". Through these words, EC President Jean-Claude Juncker has himself defined the setting of the tyranny he exercises. Our programme is not compatible with the rules laid out by the European treaties, which mandate austerity, free trade, and the desctruction of public services. In order to apply our policies, we shall have to disobey the European treaties as soon as we obtain power, through policies that will safeguard the sovereignty of the French people.
�
Here are the policies that we propose:

To disobey the Stability Pact and the European rules surrounding deficits, and to terminate our participation in the TSCG, which was ratified by Fran�ois Hollande in violation of his campaign promises.

To unilaterally stop applying the Posted Workers directive: national legislation must apply to everyone, including the legislation pertaining to employers' contributions.

To refuse any regression imposed by EU law on national social and ecological policies.

To refuse free trade agreements: TAFTA, CETA, and TISA (Trade in Services Agreement).

To put an and to the liberalization and the privatization of public services (hydro dams, rail transportation, and so on).

To create a framework around capital flows, in order to prevent fiscal evasion and attacks against the French economy through speculation.

These policies are all based on the idea that consent to European treaties and their provisions is not eternal, and may be withdrawn should there be a democratic will that it be so. I agree with this idea. They are also pretty basic leftism: JLM's opposition to the TSCG is based on his opposition to austeritarian constraints on national economic policies. The posted workers directive is a tool used by capitalists to circumvent their economic duties to the country, which is done at the expense of all workers, be they French or European: many European workers would be much better served by an alignment of their working conditions on French standards.

The next section of JLM's policies focus on his plan to propose a new basis upon which the EU should be built. A few things from chapter 49 are repeated.

L'avenir en Commun, chapters 51 and 52 posted:

51.�Plan A.�To spearhead a democratic, social and green refoundation of the European treaties through negotiation

The EU is being dislocated. It did not listen to the peoples' [TN: "peuples"] refusals after the failed referendum of 2005. Getting out of the European treaties under their current form is a necessity. This will require a power struggle, especially against the German government. Our proposal is a strategy involving a plan A, and a plan B should plan A fail. Plan A is a concerted exit of the European treaties through the abandonment of the current rules by all the nations who wish it, and the negotiation of new rules. Plan B is the unilateral exit from the European treaties by France, and the seeking of new partnerships. We shall change the EU, or leave it. The mandate to negotiate these plans shall be submitted to the National Assembly [TN: our lower parliamentary chamber], and the validation of this process shall necessarily go through a referendum.

This is what we want in this new Europe:

To put an end to the ECB's independance, to modify its missions and its statutes, to allow the purchase of debt directly from the member states, to forbid the ECB from cutting off cash flows to a member state. The French National Bank will serve this purpose immediately.

To devaluate the Euro in order to return to parity with the US dollar.

To bring finance to heel, to forbid the recourse to junk financial tools, to tax financial transactions, to control the flows of capital in order to prevent attacks on the economy through speculation.

To organize talks on the European level on the topic of sovereign debt, which would lead to moratoriums, the reduction of interest rates, the restructuring of sovereign debts, and partial cancellations.

To put an end to the liberalization of public services.

To set up a form of united protectionnism [TN: "protectionnisme solidaire"], which means to put an end to the free circulation of capital and goods between the EU and other countries, and an end to free trade policies that ruin developing economis and wreck European industries ; to allow state intervention into strategic sectors of the economy.

To put an end to social dumping inside the EU through a voluntarist policy of upwards fiscal and social harmonization throughout the EU, which would include a clause of no return on social progress.

To rebuild the CAP in order to guarantee alimentary self-sufficience, on-shoring [TN: "relocalisation"] and ecological practices.

To abandon carbon trading systems in order to set up a real policy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, which would include imperative convergence criteria

Should we come to an agreement, the end result of these negotiations shall be submitted to a referendum, and the French people shall decide whether they participate in this new EU, or they leave it.
�

52.�A plan B, should the negotiations fail

Here are the policies we would set in place:

To immediately cut off France's contribution to the EU's budget (22 billion euros per year, a net total of 7 billion euros).

To requisition the French National Bank, in order to turn the Euro from a unique currency into a common currency.

To set up a control of the flows of capital and goods on the national borders in order to avoid fiscal evasion, and in order to protect ourselves from attacks on our economy through speculation, and from social, fiscal and ecological dumping.

To set up alternate forms of cooperation with the states who want it on cultural, education and scientific matters

As you can see, it boils down to a form of blackmail, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. The French economy is massive, and its integration into the European economy is much more profound than that of the UK ; this makes France much harder to bully around than Greece, and gives a lot of weight to the threats summed up in chapter 52. This would certainly incentivize negotiation.
I believe that everyone* in Europe would be far better off if only Europe were not so focused on the realization of liberal economic policies. I believe that European integration can only be successfully realized if (and only if) it aims at social and ecological progress, and the betterment of working and living conditions for everyone, most importantly the poor. And I believe that it is obvious that the EU is moribund in its current state, and if it cannot reform, then it must be put to sleep sooner rather than later.

This is why Jean-Luc M�lenchon's project for an alternative kind of Europe is the one that resonates best with my ideology.

*except for the owners of capital, but gently caress 'em

Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 24, 2017

# ? Jan 24, 2017 22:56

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

i remember reading this hilarious anecdote about valls

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2016/04/01/musab-younis/n-is-for-muslim/

quote:

Manuel Valls, the prime minister, was once filmed complaining there were too many dark-skinned people at a market: �Give me a few blancs, a few whites, a few blancos,� he said. A senior member of the Socialist Party was expelled in 2007 after complaining about the number of black players on the French football team. For many people, Rossignol�s use of the term �n�gre� to condemn the way Muslim women dress demonstrated the ongoing links between anti-Muslim and anti-black prejudice in France.

literally something my racist grandma would say

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:00

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

ElNarez posted:

I'm really not into M�lenchon thinking the way to reach the working class is to be as racist as Marine.

I'm not getting this vibe from M�lenchon, what makes you say this?

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:00

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

How does giving every national government access to the printing press make the lives of Europeans better?

How does destroying the EU make the lives of Europeans better?

I get that certain people are upset about globalization and automation, but the idea that you could stop these developments by build an economic wall around your country is just insane.

This especially funny because, if you look at it from on a global scale, the poor have benefited massively from globalization, it's just that low-skilled workers in the developed world are not really THAT poor.

GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 24, 2017

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:07

Sneaks McDevious: Jul 29, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Never took M�lanchon for a racist tbh

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:09

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

GaussianCopula posted:

How does giving every national government access to the printing press make the lives of Europeans better?

Uh, monetary policy is a pretty useful and versatile tool in an economic policy. This is basic economics, man.

GaussianCopula posted:

How does destroying the EU make the lives of Europeans better?

Well, destroying the current liberal framework of Europe and replacing it with something that is way better will make the lives of Europeans better, because economic liberalism is a scourge.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:11

ElNarez: Nov 4, 2009

Flowers For Algeria posted:

I'm not getting this vibe from M�lenchon, what makes you say this?

The notes he's hitting, when he talks about the capital-n Nation, and when he says that Posted Workers steal our workers' bread, the fact that he's spoken in favor of something along the lines of mandatory military service for young people, plus his winks and nods to unsavory internet types, all of that makes me really uncomfortable about him, in a way that bums me out because I agree with most of his policies. The hang-ups I have are on some stuff that is non-negotiable to me.

Plus his campaign gives off this weird cult of personality vibe, where everything is about M�lenchon and no one but M�lenchon.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:12

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Flowers For Algeria posted:

Uh, monetary policy is a pretty useful and versatile tool in an economic policy. This is basic economics, man.

You are aware of the current monetary policy implemented by the ECB? It's almost impossible to flush even more money into the system than they are doing right now.

Flowers For Algeria posted:

Well, destroying the current liberal framework of Europe and replacing it with something that is way better will make the lives of Europeans better, because economic liberalism is a scourge.

What you are saying is that Trump is an economic mastermind and building a wall/protectionism is the right move? Tell me, how is this going to make the French economy (or European economy) better?

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:16

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

The EU's austerity policy is the reason for the far right resurgence in its backyard. Dismantling the Lisbon treaty would be an immense boon to everyone but the bankers.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:19

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Fiction posted:

The EU's austerity policy is the reason for the far right resurgence in its backyard. Dismantling the Lisbon treaty would be an immense boon to everyone but the bankers.

I'm not really sure that's the case.

The economic malaise in certain EU countries, that relied heavily on state intervention (e.g. France, Italy, Greece) is not caused by the austerity policy, but by the inability of these countries to have meaningful reforms. Maybe the people living in these countries have to accept the fact that the convergence of standards of living in the EU is not a one-way street if you are unable to adapt.

The inability of the respective governments to access the printing press is an intended and necessary feature of the Euro, because otherwise it would be a race to the bottom with respect to fiscal responsibility.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:35

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

ElNarez posted:

The notes he's hitting, when he talks about the capital-n Nation, and when he says that Posted Workers steal our workers' bread, the fact that he's spoken in favor of something along the lines of mandatory military service for young people, plus his winks and nods to unsavory internet types, all of that makes me really uncomfortable about him, in a way that bums me out because I agree with most of his policies. The hang-ups I have are on some stuff that is non-negotiable to me.

Plus his campaign gives off this weird cult of personality vibe, where everything is about M�lenchon and no one but M�lenchon.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm a pretty ardent anti-nationalist myself, so I've had trouble reconciling this part of my ideology with his. My perception is that his conception of the Nation is not exclusionary at all - it is a global concept that is more populist than nationalist. It harkens back to Revolutionary rhetoric. There's no "French pride", only a sense of belonging and an attachment to the social assets that we've conquered in the past. Do you see what I mean?
I honestly understand where you're coming from, but I've been able to overcome the cognitive dissonance. I'm pretty sure that if it ever veers towards chauvinism, I'll be out of there as fast as I can. Having skeptical leftist friends helps.

About posted workers: I'm going to direct you to this section of a speech of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPObTXX1r3Y
This clarifies his position, and I don't find it to be racist in the least. The "taking the workers' bread" line was bad - it happened once and was a terrible shortcut. I'm ready to excuse it because of its context, and because of his many clarifications on this topic.

About mandatory military service, you'll find the relevant sections of his programme below. Keep in mind that this programme is the product of a collaborative work involving thousands of people, and therefore it is not something he came up with all by himself.

quote:

14.�La�jeunesse au�service de�l�int�r�t g�n�ral et�de�la�s�ret� de�la�Nation

Aujourd�hui, de nombreuses t�ches indispensables � la s�ret� et � l�int�grit� de la Nation ne sont pas assur�es. C�est vrai aussi bien du point de vue de la d�fense et de la s�ret� que de l�int�grit� �cologique, de la solidarit� et du secours � la population. Ces pr�occupations ne peuvent �tre abandonn�es aux marchands ni aux seuls agents des services concern�s. C�est la Nation tout enti�re qui doit y faire face, pour les t�ches civiles comme militaires.
�
Nous proposons de r�aliser les mesures suivantes�:
●�Cr�er un service citoyen obligatoire
▶�Pour les femmes et pour les hommes
▶�Par conscription avant 25�ans, proche du lieu de vie, en limitant le ��casernement�� aux fonctions qui l�exigent r�ellement
▶�D�une dur�e totale de neuf mois, comprenant une formation militaire initiale incluant un droit � l�objection de conscience
▶�R�mun�r� au smic
▶�Affect� � des t�ches d�int�r�t g�n�ral�: secours � la population, sapeurs-pompiers, s�curit� publique, d�fense, s�curit� civile, protection et r�paration de l�environnement, appui � des associations labellis�es d�int�r�t g�n�ral
▶�Pr�sence sur tout le territoire, y compris les Outre-mer, les zones rurales et les quartiers populaires
▶�Comprenant un bilan de sant�, une �valuation des capacit�s d��criture, de lecture et de calcul avec leur �ventuelle mise � niveau, la formation gratuite � la conduite et le passage de l�examen du permis de conduire
●�Cr�er une garde nationale plac�e sous commandement civil et compos�e
▶�Des jeunes en service citoyen obligatoire ayant choisi d�int�grer la r�serve pour la protection de la s�ret� et de l�int�grit� de la Nation
▶�Des unit�s existantes labellis�es�: r�serve de s�curit� nationale, r�serve de s�curit� civile, r�serve citoyenne

I don't like it a lot, although I like the fact that it is paid work, and while in my opinion it focuses a little bit too much on the "civil defense" aspect of service, there is an conscientious objection clause. It is clear that would have preferred it if it had been presented as an "occupational service" - a notion I have no good or bad opinion about.

What unsavory internet types are you referring to? forum.jeuxvideo.com ? Honest question.

Finally, about the personality cult vibe... yeah, I see what you mean. He is very careful in his speeches to talk in the plural, and to remind people all the time that the programme is not his, but rather the France Insoumise's programme. He's also pretty serious about stepping down after the Constitutional Convention. But yeah, he's a charismatic dude, I can't argue that.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:42

ElNarez: Nov 4, 2009

Flowers For Algeria posted:

What unsavory internet types are you referring to? forum.jeuxvideo.com ? Honest question.

It's exactly that. There's stuff that he lets slide that is unconscionable to be.

Back to the general topic of the state of the French left: how the hell will Macron deal with the almost inevitable defections from the Valls wing of the PS once Hamon wins? The contradiction of claiming to be against the system while having this whole mess of former PS guys running with him feels like something you can't sweet-talk your way out of if you're as revolutionary as you claim to be.

# ? Jan 24, 2017 23:58

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Macron is a banker-turned-politician who claims to be against the system when he was until very recently part of the government. This kind of contradictions didn't stop Trump, so I'm not expecting them to stop Macron.

Valls and Macron are the two daddies of the labor reform law (Macron wrote it by asking Gattaz what he wanted, and then doubling down; Valls pushed it down by abusing an obsolete constitutional mechanism). This is what leftists should campaign about.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 00:31

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Flowers For Algeria posted:

Aight, what is Jean-Luc Mélenchon's stance on Europe, and his EU policy? His programme answers this question with a series of bullet points. The translation is mine, it is mediocre because I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the major points will be clear enough.

The first element of his European policy is that he plans to make France unilaterally stop following certain policies that are mandated by the EU:

These policies are all based on the idea that consent to European treaties and their provisions is not eternal, and may be withdrawn should there be a democratic will that it be so. I agree with this idea. They are also pretty basic leftism: JLM's opposition to the TSCG is based on his opposition to austeritarian constraints on national economic policies. The posted workers directive is a tool used by capitalists to circumvent their economic duties to the country, which is done at the expense of all workers, be they French or European: many European workers would be much better served by an alignment of their working conditions on French standards.

The next section of JLM's policies focus on his plan to propose a new basis upon which the EU should be built. A few things from chapter 49 are repeated.

As you can see, it boils down to a form of blackmail, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. The French economy is massive, and its integration into the European economy is much more profound than that of the UK ; this makes France much harder to bully around than Greece, and gives a lot of weight to the threats summed up in chapter 52. This would certainly incentivize negotiation.
I believe that everyone* in Europe would be far better off if only Europe were not so focused on the realization of liberal economic policies. I believe that European integration can only be successfully realized if (and only if) it aims at social and ecological progress, and the betterment of working and living conditions for everyone, most importantly the poor. And I believe that it is obvious that the EU is moribund in its current state, and if it cannot reform, then it must be put to sleep sooner rather than later.

This is why Jean-Luc Mélenchon's project for an alternative kind of Europe is the one that resonates best with my ideology.

*except for the owners of capital, but gently caress 'em

Two points, here:

1) The exact same reasoning of non-compliance with EU regulations can be and has been applied from any other ideological perspective; liberalism, nationalism, etc. That's what Brexit was all about.

2) The French economy is anemic dogshit compared to Germany, which is the real European leader.

Other than that, good for you. You are at least true to your principles, no matter how marginal they are.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 08:10

3peat: May 6, 2010

Is there any chance whatsoever for Melenchon to drop out and support Hamon?

# ? Jan 25, 2017 11:00

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

GaussianCopula posted:

I'm not really sure that's the case.

The economic malaise in certain EU countries, that relied heavily on state intervention (e.g. France, Italy, Greece) is not caused by the austerity policy, but by the inability of these countries to have meaningful reforms. Maybe the people living in these countries have to accept the fact that the convergence of standards of living in the EU is not a one-way street if you are unable to adapt.

The inability of the respective governments to access the printing press is an intended and necessary feature of the Euro, because otherwise it would be a race to the bottom with respect to fiscal responsibility.

If the reforms cause as much damage as the austerity...

# ? Jan 25, 2017 11:03

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

Thanks FFA!

# ? Jan 25, 2017 11:14

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

3peat posted:

Is there any chance whatsoever for Melenchon to drop out and support Hamon?

Nope.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 11:19

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Kassad posted:

And a former minister who backs Valls said (anonymously) that Hamon is the candidate of the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm not sure why the Trump supporters are even bothering.

Hamon has some really weird hangups. He once declared that the western city of Brest was "Too white. Too many white people, to be honest, because Brest is a city with no immigration."
Which is completely false of course, if you've been in Brest 1 hour.

He doesn't seem to have a really strong stance on laicit� which is worrying too.

In a recent event two women filmed themselves getting harrased by arabs in a bar in Sevran, because they're women and "there's no mixity here ! it's not Paris, it's more like le bled"

When shown the footage Hamon explained that historically, bars for the working class didn't have much women, which is very spineless and debatable.

unpacked robinhood fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jan 25, 2017

# ? Jan 25, 2017 13:12

KoldPT: Oct 9, 2012

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/portugals-secret-revolution

a gay american jew wrote about how portugal is actually really good now!

# ? Jan 25, 2017 14:13

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

unpacked robinhood posted:

Hamon has some really weird hangups.

I think the same about Valls' obsession with la�cit� and his infamous "needs more whites" quote. I mean, that's it? When he was a teenager, Hamon was weirded out after coming back to Brest after living in Senegal for years? Am I supposed find that odd?

As I see it, Valls is only trying to avoid having to talk about economic issues and unemployment. That's not surprising since his record there is abysmal. I'm still gonna judge him for pushing the same identity politics horseshit that Sarkozy and Le Pen did/do, no matter what I think about Hamon.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 14:40

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/...41F1536&gwt=pay

quote:

LONDON � The prime minister of the Netherlands, aiming to head off an insurgent challenge from right-wing populists, stunned many Dutch citizens this week with a strategy that could have come from President Trump�s playbook.
In an open letter, published online and in full-page newspaper advertisements, the prime minister, Mark Rutte, warned of �something wrong with our country� and said �the silent majority� would no longer tolerate immigrants who come and �abuse our freedom.�
Mr. Rutte castigated �antisocial� behavior like littering and spitting, then broadened his critique to include people who do not respect women or gay rights.
While the letter did not explicitly mention Islam, the inference was not lost on anyone, whether or not they support Mr. Rutte, who has been prime minister since 2010 and is seeking a third term in an election set for March. Muslims make up about 6 percent of the population, and there have been sharp debates in the Netherlands for nearly two decades about the role of Muslim immigrants in political and social life.
�The solution is not to tar people with the same brush, or insult or expel whole groups, but to make crystal clear what is normal and what is not normal in our country,� Mr. Rutte wrote.
...
Mr. Rutte�s party faces a strong challenge from the far-right Party for Freedom, whose longtime leader, Geert Wilders, has a record of inflammatory remarks and was convicted last month of inciting discrimination for denigrating Moroccans before municipal elections in 2014.
The letter from Mr. Rutte, which was published online on Sunday, seemed like an effort to head off that challenge by embracing some of Mr. Wilders�s populist messages.
�If you reject our country so fundamentally, I�d prefer you leave,� Mr. Rutte wrote in the letter. �I have the same feeling. Act normal or leave.�
The letter stunned members of the Dutch establishment.
�Just not normal,� the newspaper NRC Handelsblad said in an editorial, turning Mr. Rutte�s words against him. It condemned the remarks as simplistic and opportunistic, and warned that they risked scapegoating Muslims.
Writing in the newspaper Trouw, the columnist Sylvain Ephimenco called Mr. Rutte an �amateur populist.� In the centrist newspaper De Volkskrant, another journalist, Bert Wagendorp, mused that Mr. Rutte�s message sounded as if it had come from a focus group.
Mr. Wilders dismissed Mr. Rutte�s letter as an act of deceit, declaring in a video posted online: �Stop deceiving your own people. It was you who caused the loss of our freedom, our security and our culture.�

turns out you probably can't out-populist actual right wing populists

LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jan 25, 2017

# ? Jan 25, 2017 14:43

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

If you don't like it, Rutte, you can leave any time.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 14:44

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

3peat posted:

Is there any chance whatsoever for Melenchon to drop out and support Hamon?

Dropping out to support the guy who he's polling 6 points ahead of in the first round?

# ? Jan 25, 2017 14:53

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Dropping out to support the guy who he's polling 6 points ahead of in the first round?

Yes if the socialist party wasn't a shark-like political creature by nature, that will never stop swimming until it dies, it would make more sense to expect them to pass this cycle for the good of the left. But lol it would be like expecting Hillary to remove herself six month ago from the presidency to let Sanders beat that Trump guy.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:03

9-Volt Assault: Jan 27, 2007; Beter twee tetten in de hand dan tien op de vlucht.

LemonDrizzle posted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/...41F1536&gwt=pay

turns out you probably can't out-populist actual right wing populists

But he is going to try his hardest. To be honest, it probably will work, because the conservatives present themselves as a party for civilized people who just don't like ~~Muslims~~ people not behaving like a normal person does (whatever that is) and a lot of people who might vote for Wilders like that, because they pretend they aren't racist. Thanks to Wilders muslims and identity are pretty much the only issue this election, with healthcare (because of loads of old people in the country) a distant second.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:04

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

So what type of monster coalition is Rutte going to have to put together if he doesn't get supply from the PVV? I assume he needs 76+ seats, so from the latest polling it looks like it would at least have to be VVD/CDA/PvDA/D66 (possibly with +50 or GL as well), that is quite a Frankenstein coalition.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jan 25, 2017

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:39

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

He has a secret plan to liberate Flanders and get his party into power for ten years like Kohl's CDU

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:41

Sneaks McDevious: Jul 29, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/25/francois-fillon-faces-call-explain-payments-wife-mp-funds-france?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The rightwing French presidential candidate Fran�ois Fillon is under pressure to explain the role of his British wife in his political operation after a newspaper alleged that she had been paid about �500,000 (�430,000) in eight years out of parliamentary funds.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:44

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

julian assflange posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/25/francois-fillon-faces-call-explain-payments-wife-mp-funds-france?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The rightwing French presidential candidate Fran�ois Fillon is under pressure to explain the role of his British wife in his political operation after a newspaper alleged that she had been paid about �500,000 (�430,000) in eight years out of parliamentary funds.

The part where he complains about how misogynistic the paper is sounds kinda desperate and insulting to everyone who knows it's really not the issue.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:50

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

jBrereton posted:

He has a secret plan to liberate Flanders and get his party into power for ten years like Kohl's CDU

"Josh, please tell the press about my secret plant to liberate Flanders."

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:51

Sneaks McDevious: Jul 29, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

unpacked robinhood posted:

The part where he complains about how misogynistic the paper is sounds kinda desperate and insulting to everyone who knows it's really not the issue.

Even if she did do the work, the sums quoted are incredible and won't go down well

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:54

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

The nouvelobs has an amusing collection of Fillon tweets that contrast a lot with this recent stuff

"Increasing the smic: it's too easy to be generous with someone else's money !" _{Sad !}

# ? Jan 25, 2017 15:58

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:08

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

julian assflange posted:

Even if she did do the work, the sums quoted are incredible and won't go down well

�5-8k per month isn't really "incredible" for a skilled professional. I mean, there's no evidence that she is a skilled professional or did any work, but the amounts being claimed aren't wildly out of line with what you'd expect for a senior contractor or whatever.

Also, Macron has opinions about European integration and "elites"!

https://www.ft.com/content/3d0cc856-e187-11e6-9645-c9357a75844a

quote:

Theresa May, UK prime minister, and Donald Trump, the US president, are right. Yesterday�s world is gone. Today, people everywhere want to choose their destiny. Sovereignty has become the great cause of our time.
The vote in the UK to leave the EU, for example, should be seen as a warning shot by those who take the European project seriously. It did not just reflect the depth of British Euroscepticism; it also held up a mirror to the EU, reflecting a dysfunctional and highly uninspiring organisation.
The permissive consensus that allowed Europe to be governed by the elite for the elite is over.
So we must rebuild Europe�s institutional and democratic foundations and ensure that any new EU-wide powers are understood and accepted by its citizens. At the same time we must defend and strengthen a union that allows European countries to speak with a louder voice on the world stage. Mr Trump�s recent critical remarks about the EU highlight how important this is.
The US president makes no secret of his intention to pursue a protectionist agenda. But protectionism is an illusion. Once retaliatory measures are taken, trade dries up, growth slows and it is the weak � the �forgotten people� Mr Trump appealed to in his inaugural address � who suffer the most.
European governments must be clear: if the US wants to pursue unilateral trade or tax policies that threaten our companies, jobs and tax revenues, then we will change our trade policies and corporate tax rules in response.
...
Until now, the idea of a common European defence policy has raised eyebrows. In 1954, when the European Defence Community failed, Europe had a common enemy and, through Nato, a strong ally. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, that alliance held even though the enemy had disappeared.
Today, Europe faces multiple enemies, while the alliance is uncertain. We cannot fail again. We must create a European defence fund, with a permanent headquarters in charge of operation planning and monitoring. Central to this is a Franco-German relationship that is strong enough to ensure that Europe can act credibly and effectively in the Middle East and Africa.

# ? Jan 25, 2017 16:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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