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MalcolmSheppard posted:In what part of anything I wrote did I express an opinion on that name other than saying it was "tricky?" In what part of anything I wrote did I say that these criticisms were invalid? I'm making a moral argument rather than a rational argument: No, you didn't say anything about "sexmurder" other than it being "tricky". But the adult response, such as Dave from upthread, is to make an absolute repudiation of the phrase. This isn't tricky all. I mean, I know that I'm not going to be talking about anything close to the "sexmurder" revisions during the wine & cheese intermission at the opera house, because you don't bring up lowbrow dogshit in that situation and with that company. And I would love if WoD could achieve that level of pretension you ache to affect, rather than suffering through the crude and childish presentation that I am consistently embarrassed to be associated with.
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Oct 24, 2012 07:43
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Here's a good example of the design process. David Hill has put a blog up about the nWoD's new Social Skills system (note: not "social combat"), which is still "cooking", as it were, before it gets included in God-Machine. Game Traits don't have their final names, dice rolls haven't been properly tabled out, that sort of thing. This is very interesting. It looks like it's implicitly wieldable by PCs against PCs, or by NPCs against PCs, which I think is a situation you want out of social rules to give social-heavy NPCs "bite", but in that case I actually wish it was even less like mind control than it already was - that losing social contests explicitly meant being flustered, embarassed, or otherwise feeling sheepish about saying no, but never having to do anything (whereas in this system, you have to spend a willpower and say "no, but..."). On the other hand, without that final "Okay, but you gotta at LEAST..." social traits would become a lot less solid and punchy when turned on NPCs. It's cool to see a preview of the new experience system, but what's not cool is that the preview heavily implies that different characters are expected to go home with different amounts of experience points based on their in-game accomplishments. Boo, booooo.
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Oct 24, 2012 08:51
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Not to add more fuel to the fire, but I think you don't fully understand where we're coming from, Malcolm. Look, you know the people that wrote some of the horrible poo poo we complain about in this thread. They're your friends and coworkers. You know they're not misogynistic creepy racists, but rather good people operating in good faith. You know that they just want to make the best game possible that's fun for the most amount of gamers. Given your extra context and insight, you're liable to excuse, or at least be more understanding, when the occasional undead menses or dark irony indeed slips through. Since you know the bunch from the inside, you're in a better position to declare that the few bad apples haven't spoiled it. We don't have the benefit of that context. We only have what we see from the outside, what we read in the books we buy and what we witness in how the company interacts with the community. And frankly, viewed from the outside White Wolf has a pretty spotty track record. Its just little things, and you might think it's blowing it out of proportion to focus on them, but they keep happening. Taken together, you can get a sense that the people behind WoD either don't realize they're coming off as creepy assholes, don't realize that's a problem, or don't care enough to address it if they know its a problem. So yeah, maybe we're over-reacting to the company gleefully presenting "sexmurder" as its working title for a new ruleset with a nod and an "aren't we so clever" manner. And maybe we're overly inclined to say you're handwaving legitimate concerns when you sign off a very well thought out post about why its hard for developers to influence what players do with their games with a "we have to be cautious or we'll kill WoD!" It sounds as though from what you and Dave have posted it is something that's on the mind of the team and is something they're taking seriously. I think that's great. All we're hoping is that it shows a little more in the product going forward. Baby Babbeh fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 24, 2012 08:59
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Baby Babbeh posted:And frankly, viewed from the outside White Wolf has a pretty spotty track record. Spotty? No. With Undead Menses the company of White Wolf has a straight up heavy flow.
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Oct 24, 2012 09:02
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Has anyone actually read Geist 1.1? My book is currently on the other side of the country or I'd send in for the PDF.
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Oct 24, 2012 10:12
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'Sexmurder' did wander out of its intended context, that's obvious. God knows I make off-color jokes about the system myself. It's just that it really shouldn't have wandered, you know? I personally was torn between rolling my eyes every time it came up and feeling uncomfortable, because it does have those implications everyone's been talking about. Whenever I think about Undead Menses (which is too often reading this thread, drat) I just think of what a shame it is that the horror of it is external. The horror of menses for men is contamination, which fits the way the merit is written: it's a strange, pungent fluid that a woman produces that she can feed to people to cloud their minds and smear on things to render them unclean. Okay, that actually does fit menstruation taboos in various senses: a menstruating woman is seen as unclean, a source of infection, and a bringer of bad luck, in control of mysterious malign powers. But it doesn't tell me anything about how it works for the female vampires who have this going on. Menstruation horror for women is about shame. You're not supposed to talk about it except with other women or as a crude joke, you're sexually unattractive according to conventional standards, it's painful and messy. (Of course that's not all it is, but that's the horror aspects.) So where is that? What does it mean socially? You're a woman, but you're dead, and this stuff that is distinctly not like the way you used to bleed when you were alive is happening to you. That's some serious body horror, forget what other people think about it, forget them even knowing about it. It's not a big social deal, or anything, save for the Circle of the Crone, but it should matter--your hypothetical Gangrel biker chick freaking out and going to her female vampire friends like she's going through 'Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret' all over again. Play on how every girl's first period is a radical change to her body--or how every girl doesn't have a period, and that's something individuals cope with too. Menstruation is a thing for women: just look at how transwomen are excluded from sweeping definitions of what a woman is based on definitions of 'something that bleeds every month but doesn't die'. Some men have periods, and speaking only from experience with my male friends who do that comes with a whole host of issues. A vampire with a period is like the first kid in the class to get one, with all the attendant potential loneliness, worry, and shame, except it's forever. I remember that time, and it was pretty miserable even when I knew I wasn't diseased, injured, or freakish. A vampire doesn't have any of that certainty. Conversely, other vampires might be envious of what the mysteriously different one has. After all, menstruation is tied to life and possibility, and for some women it's a symbol of identity. It's a signal of physical maturity and health. Menopausal women who wished for years to lose the drat cramps can find themselves nostalgic for them. Why not vampires? There are plenty of ways I can see using the idea as strictly personal body horror without even going into the other interesting magical possibilities. It never struck me as an inherently bad concept, just one that felt like half of it was missing. It'd be good to have that kind of perspective for all players, because it's only with all the discussion I realized why the merit felt kind of off to me. Things like this unfortunately crop up, and it jars me when I read things I otherwise love. Another case in point: there's a tiny mention in the Geist book about a brothel that promises to summon beautiful dead women for Sin-Eaters to gently caress, with a line that goes approximately "haven't you ever wanted to gently caress Marilyn Monroe and Helen of Troy at the same time?" It's a really, really disturbing line to me, considering the way Geists are described extorting favors out of ghosts elsewhere and the fact that ghosts are still sentient beings with agency. The vast power differential between these dead women and their summoners means that consent is pretty much out the window however you cut it. For me, that very brief idea was horrific and really underscored how hosed up Geist can be. But it's so casual and tucked in with less horrifying things that it seems like 'sexmurder'--the people writing it knew it was off, but not to what degree. I talk up the World of Darkness to a lot of women because it is a great roleplaying system for tons of reasons, and generally the handling of women is good, and distinctly improved from oWoD. I'd just like to see a time when I don't have to go over the parts that I really enjoy and then add 'but here are the parts that are problematic in ways I'm uncertain were intentional, and here are the parts that feel like something could have been added'. Since the handling of problematic things and minority issues has improved over the years I'm reasonably sure that day may come. Speaking of menstruation horror: I am horrified I just wrote that many words about it and made a Judy Blume reference in those words. On the other hand, a vampire Judy Blume would be amazing. I would read the hell out of 'Are You There, God? It's Me, Dracula'.
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Oct 24, 2012 10:18
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MalcolmSheppard posted:How much politeness do you expect? I engaged this in a civil tone and took Etherwind's concerns, and his story, completely seriously. I responded respectfully. I was rewarded with him, then others, just kind of making poo poo up about my statements and motives. And yeah, when people do that, I am no longer quite as nice -- but I still laid my position out because I think the ideas are important. And you are laying it out in a way that implies those who disagree with you (or agree, apparently, as you claim it) are basically simple minded children who can't handle responsible adult themes that need to be included for a complete roleplaying experience like vampires having a period and not just a period but a thick, black, musky one. At least that appears to be the strong implication going on here by my reading of things. Ralp posted:You're all retards who need to take your dumb poo poo to the minority gaming thread in the gas chamber archives. I have this one, thanks. Ferrinus posted:I think everyone here would've been happier to see Malcolm Sheppard openly repudiate the game elements being criticized rather than (or in addition to) expound at length on the difficulties of writing about tricky material in general, but he is obviously not making any attempt to intellectually justify this stuff. There is good sense in this, clearly no amount of badgering is going to get the sort of denial or get WW to change their policy. Gerund posted:I mean, I know that I'm not going to be talking about anything close to the "sexmurder" revisions during the wine & cheese intermission at the opera house, because you don't bring up lowbrow dogshit in that situation and with that company. And I would love if WoD could achieve that level of pretension you ache to affect, rather than suffering through the crude and childish presentation that I am consistently embarrassed to be associated with. There is also good sense here. SEXY VAMPIRES are probably sort of huge and unavoidable at this point and if you wanted the worst offenders for equating sexualized vampire violence with the mainstream WW probably is not in the top ten honestly (I am thinking True Blood and Twilight and a fair chunk of Anne RIce and so on). Shep can argue it is sort of a hazard of the genre but what is included and what isn't is still their active choice. The above is mostly me as a poster, not a mod, but the mod bit of this is that if IN GENERAL folks could get fewer clever jabs in (at least as far as the sensitive stuff goes, I am pro clever jabs in general) it would be a good thing. For the most part this has been a pretty good discussion, all things considered, and for the most part people have been making some pretty good points in pretty good ways and no one has told anyone to check anything so far and that is all swell.
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Oct 24, 2012 15:21
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Not to distract everyone, but you can get the World of Darkness corebook in PDF for free between now and Halloween on rpgnow if you click on the pumpkin on the Free Stuff page.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:00
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JDCorley posted:Not to distract everyone, but you can get the World of Darkness corebook in PDF for free between now and Halloween on rpgnow if you click on the pumpkin on the Free Stuff page. A fine catch and a useful one if anyone in this thread doesn't already have it.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:10
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Raepdog posted:Spotty? No. With Undead Menses the company of White Wolf has a straight up heavy flow. You know, if you combine the many strange and bizarre things White Wolf's included over the years you get something that sounds like a darkwave album title. Example: Oriental Special Hell Gypsy Magic Blood They Have To Steal Vampire Menses; Werewolf Rape Pheremones Pedophile Priest Penis Maggots. EDIT: This page is going to show up on some weird google searches now, isn't it?
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Oct 24, 2012 16:14
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Not to further derail things but what do Undead Menses DO mechanically anyway? Why is this something you can buy as a merit and why would you need it? From the quoted portion (and Mal's shiny new title) it does not sound terribly pleasant or interesting.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:23
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Loomer posted:You know, if you combine the many strange and bizarre things White Wolf's included over the years you get something that sounds like a darkwave album title.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:26
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Pumpkin_Paine posted:it does not sound terribly pleasant or interesting. Welcome to the World of Darkness thread. To change topics if I could, as awesome as undead lady cycles is to discuss, I was wondering two things: 1: What's the goonsensus on Second Sight? I flipped through it earlier and think it has some fun ideas. 2: I'm considering running a hybrid IRC/PBP Hunter game on here once the general election is over and I'm not covering races anymore. If you are interested, let me know! The only thing I can say right now about it is that it will probably be a monster-of-the-week kind of schtick until PC's start doing things on their own.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:51
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crime fighting hog posted:
It's pretty great, but I'd want to move the mechanics for getting psychic powers away from the merit system. As written, you don't have nearly enough points at character gen to get an interesting complement of powers, and pretty much everything can't be bought after character generation.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:58
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Second Sight has some rad concepts but the mechanics explode into a million pieces the moment you get beyond the very basic stuff. So, standard White Wolf stuff.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:59
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crime fighting hog posted:Welcome to the World of Darkness thread. Sounds cool! I like the idea of something IRC-based, could move a bit quicker, have a more dynamic approach to it. What timezone are you in - something USA, I guess? GMT here, but I could probably make a late session at a weekend. Flavivirus posted:It's pretty great, but I'd want to move the mechanics for getting psychic powers away from the merit system. As written, you don't have nearly enough points at character gen to get an interesting complement of powers, and pretty much everything can't be bought after character generation. This is the impression I get from it - the powers are cool, but good luck ever actually getting access to them!
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Oct 24, 2012 17:02
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Tiny Deer posted:'Sexmurder' did wander out of its intended context, that's obvious. God knows I make off-color jokes about the system myself. It's just that it really shouldn't have wandered, you know? I personally was torn between rolling my eyes every time it came up and feeling uncomfortable, because it does have those implications everyone's been talking about. Excellent post. You're right - a woman't perspective was completely lacking, and as much debate went on between everyone recently, no one considered any of this. Wizchine fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 24, 2012 18:14
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Are you prepared, God? It's me, Dracula
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Oct 24, 2012 18:16
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Ferrinus posted:Are you prepared, God? It's me, Dracula That small little Rites of the Dragon fluff book was kind of interesting. I don't even play vampire but I picked it up just cause that book looks evil.
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Oct 24, 2012 18:18
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The thing about the Ordo Dracul is, it's the best covenant.
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Oct 24, 2012 18:38
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Rites of the Dragon is pretty good, but no fluff book has yet matched The Testament of Longinus for Vampire. (Horror Recognition Guide is unmatched, period, but that goes without saying.)
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Oct 24, 2012 18:40
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crime fighting hog posted:1: What's the goonsensus on Second Sight? I flipped through it earlier and think it has some fun ideas.
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Oct 24, 2012 19:07
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Wizchine posted:Excellent post. You're right - a woman't perspective was completely lacking, and as much debate went on between everyone recently, no one considered any of this.  I can't tell if you're being pithy. For some reason I have a soft spot for the TotM opening fiction and nothing has ever really surpassed it for me.
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Oct 24, 2012 19:44
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Testament of Longinus owns because of the part at the end where an author realizes that if all of what's in the book is correct, then God is a monstrous and hateful demiurge with a hateboner for all sapient beings and he becomes atheist rather than admit that might be true (also all the bickering in the footnotes). Rites of the Dragon owns because of Dracula's foreword where he calls himself in each section a brutish idiot/emo pussy/crystal-gazing twit, respectively, and you read it and it's like welp, spot on Drac. Also the degeneration of each of his Brides over the centuries and him slowly realizing each of his mistakes, and a phenomenal summation of how the Coils work (and why they make Ordo Dracul the Best Covenant). Horror Recognition Guide owns because, well, loving read it and try to argue that it doesn't, it's physically impossible. My personal favorite out of the set is Oleg Chernenko, with the story about a hunter escaping a True Fae out of pure luck the runner up because it underscores just how hosed anybody is if a True Fae gets interested in them.
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Oct 24, 2012 20:05
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Sounds cool! I like the idea of something IRC-based, could move a bit quicker, have a more dynamic approach to it. What timezone are you in - something USA, I guess? GMT here, but I could probably make a late session at a weekend. I'm Central time here in Omaha. I figured PBP would fill in the gaps between IRC sessions. My Friday nights are usually free so I think we could devote an hour that way. Going strict PBP isn't out of the question either but those fall apart so fast sometimes.
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Oct 24, 2012 20:26
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Daeren posted:Horror Recognition Guide owns because, well, loving read it and try to argue that it doesn't, it's physically impossible. My personal favorite out of the set is Oleg Chernenko, with the story about a hunter escaping a True Fae out of pure luck the runner up because it underscores just how hosed anybody is if a True Fae gets interested in them. Also because the ending of it has a very Burn After Reading, "Well, that happened" kind of we-don't-really-know, just-punt vibe.
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Oct 24, 2012 20:44
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Ferrinus posted:The thing about the Ordo Dracul is, it's the best covenant. Unless you're studying the Coil of Banes, Volume posted:That small little Rites of the Dragon fluff book was kind of interesting. I don't even play vampire but I picked it up just cause that book looks evil. As a lapsed Theology student the setup (if not some of the actual content) of the parallel Lancea Sanctum fluff book The Testament of Longinus also rules. The arguments in the footnotes and the little story arc that plays out through them are my favorite bit
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Oct 24, 2012 21:18
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The new Kickstarter goal unlocks a new Wild West expansion PDF for W20. It's like they read my mind, or possibly my post in this thread. 
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Oct 24, 2012 21:26
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Attorney at Funk posted:As a lapsed Theology student the setup (if not some of the actual content) of the parallel Lancea Sanctum fluff book The Testament of Longinus also rules. The arguments in the footnotes and the little story arc that plays out through them are my favorite bit I love the arguments in the footnotes, detailed fake scholarship is one of my favorite fictional conceits.
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Oct 24, 2012 21:33
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I was out last night at the aforementioned society (someone actually came up to me during it and said "Have you seen the nWoD thread on SA?"), and my last post was on the way out of the door. Given that the thread's moved on, MalcolmSheppard, would you care to buy Platinum so we can continue this in private? If not, okay, I'll go ahead here. Also, whoever bought MalcolmSheppard that custom title is an idiot. He didn't write that poo poo; it's meaningless.
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Oct 24, 2012 22:35
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Testament of Longinus and Rites of the Dragon are both great reads. Has anything similar been put out for the other splats? I would definitely be interested in it.
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Oct 24, 2012 23:47
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Ferrinus posted:The thing about the Ordo Dracul is, it's the best covenant. Silver medal at best. Invictus is the best covenant. Therefore always play Carthians.
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Oct 24, 2012 23:48
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Reene posted:
Pithy - I guess. I read Tiny Deer's post and typed my reply while getting ready for work, so I didn't have time to elaborate (and without coffee, I didn't have the acumen either). In any case, I wasn't being sarcastic. When I wrote "no one considered any of this," I meant all the specific points made - not a woman's perspective in general.
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Oct 25, 2012 05:41
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JDCorley posted:Silver medal at best. Invictus is the best covenant. Therefore always play Carthians. Agreed. gently caress all that metaphysical poo poo, power for power's sake baby.  Immortality can get pretty boring after all.
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Oct 25, 2012 08:18
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Etherwind posted:I was out last night at the aforementioned society (someone actually came up to me during it and said "Have you seen the nWoD thread on SA?"), and my last post was on the way out of the door. Given that the thread's moved on, MalcolmSheppard, would you care to buy Platinum so we can continue this in private? If not, okay, I'll go ahead here. You can contact me by leaving a comment anywhere at mobunited.com and we can get things rolling, but I'm done with it here. Incidentally, saw the cover art for Left-Hand Path today. It makes up for the . . . less ambitious . . . cover of Imperial Mysteries.
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Oct 25, 2012 08:37
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Imperial Mysteries is such a good goddamn book but yeah, the cover art is extremely disappointing. (Tome of the Mysteries has the best.) I'm looking forward to LHP too, if only because I'm cautiously optimistic they'll be able to turn out something that isn't just wanky grimdark bullshit.
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Oct 25, 2012 08:46
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Reene posted:Imperial Mysteries is such a good goddamn book but yeah, the cover art is extremely disappointing. (Tome of the Mysteries has the best.) We'll see. I pretty much blank out on anything I write a few weeks after writing it. My discussions with Dave indicates he is much the same way, so I'm sure we'll both be surprised with whatever it was we did.
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Oct 25, 2012 10:44
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Reene posted:Imperial Mysteries is such a good goddamn book but yeah, the cover art is extremely disappointing. (Tome of the Mysteries has the best.) "They"? We're both right here. I don't think LHP is grimdark. It portrays its subjects as struggling with Wisdom and the accepted mores of the major sects for all sorts of reasons, some selfish, some righteous, some ill-thought out. It's about everyone marginalised by Consilium or Tetrachy, from the guys in the Arrow forced into hermitage for being pacifists to the insane, desperate and hunted guy who got caught eating human souls and is now on the run. Much more "why would you do it, and what would it do to you" than revelling in babies on spikes and evil for the sake of it. And, of course, it's a good look at the orders and seers as well. You learn a lot about a society when you discuss what they think is taboo. we couldn't have written it before the splatbooks were all out.
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Oct 25, 2012 10:48
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MalcolmSheppard posted:We'll see. I pretty much blank out on anything I write a few weeks after writing it. My discussions with Dave indicates he is much the same way, so I'm sure we'll both be surprised with whatever it was we did. Nah, man. I read it again last night, ready for answering questions.
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Oct 25, 2012 10:53
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Nah, man. I read it again last night, ready for answering questions. That's cheating. Besides, you're just ruining for yourself. I mean, I forgot I did anything for the Horror Recognition Guide until someone mentioned it. Then I gave it another look and was pleasantly surprised.
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Oct 25, 2012 11:02
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