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So, all I can take from this thread really is that libertarians are like virgins telling others how they should have sex. Whenever I press my few libertarian friends for details, they always come back with "Well, the free market will form that.". It's like a bunch of people who claim to not believe in a higher power....believing in a higher power. Replace "free market" with "God" and it kinda works as a religion.
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Aug 14, 2014 23:39
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Somfin posted:I think the realisation that as soon as he came back we were gonna ask him why he was calling for nation-wide mob justice was too much for him. He can't lose the racism fight, because denial is still a functional defence, but he'll lose the "isn't that just a mob but with constant surveillance" argument. He also can't accuse us of strawmanning, ad hominemming or windmilling, because we're reading information that he provided and comprehending it. He'll lose the argument, so he chooses (as is his libertarian right) to no longer patronise our thread where he will lose and instead patronise another thread. Well in his last two or three threads he had a lot more time to go over a bunch of nonsense talking points before us goons went and pointed out that he was advocating for a mob rule libertopia. This time we skipped to the last stage of his script from the word Go. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 23:41
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Who What Now posted:Well in his last two or three threads he had a lot more time to go over a bunch of nonsense talking points before us goons went and pointed out that he was advocating for a mob rule libertopia. This time we skipped to the last stage of his script from the word Go. "Jrodefeld is the most predictable of all posters. But, rest assured, this is simply another time that we have destroyed his philosophy, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it."
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Aug 14, 2014 23:52
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I have to say Jrod has convinced me. Previously I was a staunch Democrat, but I think I might just have become a libertarian. His arguments are just so convincing. Just now on my way home someone cut me off in traffic. Naturally this constitutes an "aggressive" behavior and a "forceful action" against me. So I will be assembling a group to go and independently persecute this person in accordance of Jrod's laws of personal ownership. In all seriousness it was a slow day at work and I just hopped onto the Jrod crazy train. What the gently caress. How can anyone be this deluded? I used to room with a hard core (disband the police, all tax is theft, lives off Mom and Dad) libertarian. We're friends to this day and as long as he doesn't talk politics he's a certifiably cool dude. Has no one ever sat these people down and explained to them that the core tenets of their ideology, the very foundations of it are completely rotten? Everything they want is based off the idea that people will always be nice to each other, no one will ever take advantage of anyone else, people will always be generous, caring, considerate, and fair. If that were true we wouldn't need a government in the first place. The government exists because people are poo poo to each other when something they want is on the line. Libertarianism just seems to be the political party for spoiled children. "Give me everything I want and no one can tell me what to do." If tomorrow the government went *poof* do they honestly think that every private industry would not be a vicious monopoly by the end of the week? That vigilante law would not reign supreme? That the country (which would not exist anymore) would not instantly devolve into a feudal system of a rich upper class and destitute serfs? I have to hand it to the people in this thread. I'm not as well read as Hope this didn't ramble too much. I generally make a rule of not posting while angry, but gat-dayum.
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Aug 15, 2014 00:58
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Travic posted:Libertarianism just seems to be the political party for spoiled children. "Give me everything I want and no one can tell me what to do." Yes, but, critically: draped in a coat of moral righteousness. J-Rod believes his belief system is the most moral because it does not require force. A society without force sounds nice. A mostly unattainable ideal to strive for, at least. But this is a red herring; he does not believe in a better world, without force. He believes in a worse world, with at least as much force, just called something else.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:10
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More critically, I think, is that while the end-game of their philosophy is never going to happen, they support real policies that screw people over in the interim. This doesn't benefit their ideal of hands-off government, it benefits the ruling elite.
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Aug 15, 2014 02:00
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"3 million new posts?! I guess JRod has replied!" Nope  What I find amazing is that so often government is criticized by these people for being bureaucratic and inefficient. The proposed solution here involves contracts for EVERYTHING. Hell, even the legal system comment earlier would require, at least, twice as many court proceedings per dispute. If JRod does come back I'd really like just one person to go through one worked example to show how his proposed system to show him how it's never going to help.
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Aug 15, 2014 02:11
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One thing most libertarians don't take into account is that most people don't wan't to live in a "true" libertopia. Having to deal with every single aspect of your life and property sounds incredibly stressful and leaves no time for doing things you find fun or interesting. As corrupt as the US government is, at least it handles a lot of aspects of society that I wouldn't want to myself. Ultimately it seems libertarians think effort=success ignoring that individuals and events do not occur in isolated bubbles. They ignore that there are many circumstances that affect their lives (such as being born into a well off white family like almost all libertarians)that are completely outside their control and a libertarian society would do nothing to fix this.
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Aug 15, 2014 02:24
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This is what comes to mind every time I hear Libertarians talking about the Minimum Income, or any social programs, really: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3RHnKYNvx8
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Aug 15, 2014 02:38
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Cnidaria posted:One thing most libertarians don't take into account is that most people don't wan't to live in a "true" libertopia. Having to deal with every single aspect of your life and property sounds incredibly stressful and leaves no time for doing things you find fun or interesting. As corrupt as the US government is, at least it handles a lot of aspects of society that I wouldn't want to myself. I could be wrong, but weren't the original people who coined the term "libertarian" French left-wing collectivists who believed that a strong communal support would "liberate" you by not having you worry about your basic necessities? I swear I remember reading that somewhere.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:30
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mojo1701a posted:I could be wrong, but weren't the original people who coined the term "libertarian" French left-wing collectivists who believed that a strong communal support would "liberate" you by not having you worry about your basic necessities? Probably, Noam Chomsky was quoted upthread as saying that libertarians as Americans understand it is pretty much the opposite of its historic meaning.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:36
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CrazyTolradi posted:So, all I can take from this thread really is that libertarians are like virgins telling others how they should have sex. FDR dealt with these people too: FDR posted:These millionaires are a funny crowd. They are perfectly willing to go along with lip service to broad objectives, but when you ask them to help put them into effect by any form of practical means, they howl in opposition and decline to suggest any other course. Basically, this is lesson one in dealing with Libertarians.
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Aug 15, 2014 03:39
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Those with money and subsequent influence over the political structure have always believed that they, and they alone, are more entitled than anyone and everyone else to have things exactly their way, as they want it, when they want it, without argument or complaint. After all if they did not deserve this, then they would not be the ones with the money and influence, would they?
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Aug 15, 2014 05:17
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Krampus Grewcock posted:I used to be libertarian in my youth, but then I spent 5 minutes on the lowest rung of a corrupt corporate ladder and was cured of it right quick. Corporations are chartered by the state.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:22
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In libertopia, people could freely associate into corporations and then forge contracts that gave them limited liability.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:29
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Socrates16 posted:Corporations are chartered by the state. Yes, go on.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:34
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Every single corporation is chartered by the state.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:35
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Babylon Astronaut posted:In libertopia, people could freely associate into corporations and then forge contracts that gave them limited liability. You wouldn't even need to do that. Since there's no legal system to appeal the decision of the corporation's handpicked arbitrators, you either accept the arbitration contract as a condition of doing business, or you don't get access to the road/medical treatment/subprime credit/what-have-you that you need. Socrates16 posted:Every single corporation is chartered by the state. And in libertopia their charters will be enforced by DRO's instead under one of the many competing systems of law. But hey, good luck using the economic power of the $500 you need to buy cancer medicine to convince Pfizer to agree to use a legal system that will impose full liability on them! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 05:35
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Hey, that's just what the guy in his avatar said about it.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:37
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VitalSigns posted:You wouldn't even need to do that. Since there's no legal system to appeal the decision of the corporation's handpicked arbitrators, you either accept the arbitration contract as a condition of doing business, or you don't get access to the road/medical treatment/subprime credit/what-have-you that you need. You're right. The state is just and pure. Ferguson has shown us the way.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:38
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Socrates16 posted:You're right. The state is just and pure. Ferguson has shown us the way. You sound tired. Maybe you should take a break carrying all those strawmen around. Maybe try arguing in good faith for a refreshing change of pace.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:40
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Socrates16 posted:You're right. The state is just and pure. Ferguson has shown us the way. Yeah the police suck, let's fix it by letting Wal-Mart hire Blackwater to keep the peace.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:41
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"It should be clear...that corporations are not at all monopolistic privileges; they are free associations of individuals pooling their capital. On the purely free market, such men would simply announce to their creditors that their liability is limited to the capital specifically invested in the corporation, and that beyond this their personal funds are not liable for debts, as they would be under a partnership arrangement. It then rests with the sellers and lenders to this corporation to decide whether or not they will transact business with it. If they do, then they proceed at their own risk. Thus, the government does not grant corporations a privilege of limited liability; anything announced and freely contracted for in advance is a right of a free individual, not a special privilege. It is not necessary that governments grant charters to corporations." \| 
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Aug 15, 2014 05:41
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Berk Berkly posted:You sound tired. Maybe you should take a break carrying all those strawmen around. Maybe try arguing in good faith for a refreshing change of pace. You're right. No one except the ancaps has used strawmen in this thread.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:41
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Socrates16 posted:Corporations are chartered by the state. What do you think not even being bound by the weak corporate regulations we already have would do for corporate transparency?
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Aug 15, 2014 05:42
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Is every action by a government body at any level the actions of 'The State' or just the bad ones?
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Aug 15, 2014 05:42
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah the police suck, let's fix it by letting Wal-Mart hire Blackwater to keep the peace. Walmart is so scary they've murdered more people than the police in the US by far.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:43
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I like government regulations because I don't like to have to sit down and do a bunch of paperwork and research every nuance of everything when I try to do anything. Like, I don't want to have to research which restaurant has tasty food that ALSO won't kill me every time I eat out. I don't want to research the companies that do the independent testing to make sure the food is safe to make sure they're on the level. On top of that I don't want to figure out which restaurants my DRO has security agreements with so I don't get ripped off. Call me lazy but that sounds like a real loving pain to do every time I want to go out and do something. How is that MORE freedom than what we have now, where I can just leave the house and go somewhere knowing they have to follow food safety laws? I don't have to research anything beyond 'does this restaurant have tasty food?' That seems like a lot more freedom to me imo
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Aug 15, 2014 05:44
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Augustin Iturbide posted:Is every action by a government body at any level the actions of 'The State' or just the bad ones? You're right. The table crumbs that the state gives poor people more than makes up for all that it steals and destroys for poor people.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:44
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platedlizard posted:I like government regulations because I don't like to have to sit down and do a bunch of paperwork and research every nuance of everything when I try to do anything. Like, I don't want to have to research which restaurant has tasty food that ALSO won't kill me every time I eat out. I don't want to research the companies that do the independent testing to make sure the food is safe to make sure they're on the level. On top of that I don't want to figure out which restaurants my DRO has security agreements with so I don't get ripped off. You're right. Restaurants would just be randomly murdering people if not for our benevolent god, the state.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:45
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Man, I hope you don't think you're making any good arguments here. edit: Sorry, you said several stupid things, not just one.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:46
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Augustin Iturbide posted:Man, I hope you don't think you're making any good arguments here. You're right. Every statist argument on this thread has been totally coherent and not boot licking at all.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:47
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Augustin Iturbide posted:Is every action by a government body at any level the actions of 'The State' or just the bad ones? Trick question, everything the government does is by definition bad. Socrates16 posted:Walmart is so scary they've murdered more people than the police in the US by far. Maybe you should look up Wal-Mart's human rights record in countries where the awful state isn't enforcing labor laws. But hey, you didn't mention Blackwater so I guess you're cool with factory owners hiring them for security then?
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Aug 15, 2014 05:47
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Socrates16 posted:Walmart is so scary they've murdered more people than the police in the US by far. Explain how private police forces would be better than state-ran police forces. Take your time.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:48
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Socrates16 posted:Walmart is so scary they've murdered more people than the police in the US by far. I mean, they would have indirectly, if not for subsistence programs that keep their employees fed.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:48
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winegums posted:Explain how private police forces would be better than state-ran police forces. Take your time. Every single fear of the privatized police force is entirely conjectural. The reality of the horror that is the state police force is factual and observable.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:49
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Socrates16 posted:Every single fear of the privatized police force is entirely conjectural. The reality of the horror that is the state police force is factual and observable. The Pinkertons: totally conjectural made-up organization. Ditto ISIS.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:50
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bobtheconqueror posted:I mean, they would have indirectly, if not for subsistence programs that keep their employees fed. gently caress Walmart.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:50
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Socrates16 posted:You're right. Restaurants would just be randomly murdering people if not for our benevolent god, the state. Look at this chump not knowing about state enforced sanitation standards and health inspections.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:50
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Socrates16 posted:You're right. Restaurants would just be randomly murdering people if not for our benevolent god, the state. That's actually what used to happen before food regulations so yeah, glad you see the light finally.
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Aug 15, 2014 05:51
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