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The basic claim is that oil/gas companies should not invest in green energy, because they are going to be replaced by new companies doing green things. Instead they should just extract gas and return money to shareholders, while making just enough environmental concessions to avoid being literally arrested. The claim is that no corporation ever survived a phase change in the nature of what the market is based on. That seems wrong. True, you can find examples of companies that bet wrong, like Blockbuster, easily enough . But what about, say, tobacco companies and e-cigarettes/vaping?
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Nov 26, 2021 11:54
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radmonger posted:They should just extract gas and return money to shareholders, while making just enough environmental concessions to avoid being literally arrested. 
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Nov 26, 2021 13:43
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radmonger posted:The basic claim is that oil/gas companies should not invest in green energy, because they are going to be replaced by new companies doing green things. Instead they should just extract gas and return money to shareholders, while making just enough environmental concessions to avoid being literally arrested. Another example might be tank and warplane manufacturers like Mitsubishi and Porsche who seem to be fine making luxury cars these days. 
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Nov 26, 2021 15:25
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radmonger posted:The basic claim is that oil/gas companies should not invest in green energy, because they are going to be replaced by new companies doing green things. Instead they should just extract gas and return money to shareholders, while making just enough environmental concessions to avoid being literally arrested. Did you even read the article because did vouch for regulations especially over methane emissions. Tobacco use is dramatically over over the last few decades but that is completely different situation - you can live without tobacco. Oil and Gas makes up hundreds of necessary products and services that are never, ever going to go away unless they are replaced by alternatives.
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Nov 26, 2021 15:49
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Want to understand the future of Oil and Gas? Look no further than this insanely detailed article, it's one of the best explanations I've come across yet - Yeah one of the best explanations for why the Oil and Gas industry spends money on boutique Green energy solutions from a person who has never heard of and will not acknowledge greenwashing.
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Nov 26, 2021 16:30
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Did you even read the article because did vouch for regulations especially over methane emissions. Tobacco use is dramatically over over the last few decades but that is completely different situation - you can live without tobacco. Oil and Gas makes up hundreds of necessary products and services that are never, ever going to go away unless they are replaced by alternatives. Yes, hence the phrase ‘just enough environment concessions to avoid being arrested’. Now, It is certainly true that many necessary things are and will continue to be made from oil (though not so much gas). But what he is arguing is for is not buying shares in oil companies that attempt anything beyond that legal minimum. Because while even though they can see the change to green energy coming, he claims history suggests they will try and fail to adapt. Which wastes money he would rather have for himself. However, even accepting that entirely amoral viewpoint, he is too busy gloating over how clever/evil he is to actually make his case. Netflix won over Blockbuster because the latter had a large number of soon-to-be useless retail locations, workers and pension liabilities. Starting from scratch was a clear winning proposition. Tesla is a more ambiguous case, where there are clear downsides as well as advantages to starting from scratch. Other car companies catching up on EVs is a thing many people can see happening, simply because they have decades of experience in making car doors, seats, steering wheels, and so on. In any case, not properly investing in EV development was a clear unforced mistake by car manufacturers, not something to be argued for. If the future of energy is largely nuclear or offshore wind, then companies with workforces that know how to build turbines and offshore oil platforms are going to have a shorter learning curve. Only if it is all manufacturing solar cells in a Chinese factory and jobbing tradesmen installing them on roofs do the existing energy companies have nothing useful to offer.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:41
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I'm a bit unclear how his position is "evil" he is simply stating to let Oil and Gas companies be Oil and Gas Companies. Investors should invest as needed. Any resource extraction is always going to messy, dirty, etc. and hence needs to be appropriately regulated along with promoting the use of cleaner fuels and other alternatives such as hydrogen.
Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 18:46
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Speaking of Chernobyl, just saw this video of two divers reacting to some crazy russians(?) diving on the water in the Chernobyl reactor... With a fish bowl as a helmet and black saran wrap as the diving suit.  https://youtu.be/dy_3m-9nOGw In better news, Portugal anounced the shutdown of the last coal power plant in the country, as far as i can quickly google the base load seems to be provided by gas.
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Nov 26, 2021 20:39
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Micr0chiP posted:Speaking of Chernobyl, just saw this video of two divers reacting to some crazy russians(?) diving on the water in the Chernobyl reactor... The best part of the series is when they become friends with that old lady who moved back into her old farm in the zone sometime during the 2000s to avoid the housing market. She keeps offering them locally grown food and laughs when the pull out their geiger counters.
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Nov 26, 2021 23:07
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radmonger posted:Tesla is a more ambiguous case, where there are clear downsides as well as advantages to starting from scratch
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Nov 27, 2021 13:17
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radmonger posted:The basic claim is that oil/gas companies should not invest in green energy, because they are going to be replaced by new companies doing green things. Instead they should just extract gas and return money to shareholders, while making just enough environmental concessions to avoid being literally arrested. I agree with you, I don't think it's intrinsic that older companies must die. Netflix comes to mind as a company that basically paved the way for streaming services but was one of the largest physical media businesses before that. Here's a mind-blowing fact: Nintendo was founded as a playing card company in 1889 and didn't start branching into any kind of electronic toys until the late 1960s. So Nintendo was exclusively a playing card company for longer than it's been a video game company.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:16
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Amazon used to exclusively sell books. Physical books. Anyone who says that a company can't do something new is a loving liar
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Nov 27, 2021 23:21
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Nokia was a gumboot manufacturer and went into mobile phones as a diversification! But then completely failed to adapt to the smartphone innovation which should have been a smaller and easier leap.
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Nov 29, 2021 02:35
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They made electronics stuff before mobile phones too, since the 60s they made mobile radios, telephone switches, capacitors and chemicals, it's a diverse company. Still make boots too, my warmest pair of boots are a pair of nokian naali.
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Nov 29, 2021 07:10
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https://twitter.com/cleanenergywire/status/1466060294522875905?s=20 Turns out allying with Natural Gas and Fossil industry to push out Nuclear likely results in a lot of your Clean Energy Funds eventually being redirected to Fossil fuel energy projects.
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Dec 1, 2021 20:26
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CFS just got US$1.8billion to build their test fusion reactor SPARC and the commercial version ARC. https://cfs.energy/news-and-media/commonwealth-fusion-systems-closes-1-8-billion-series-b-round
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Dec 2, 2021 02:45
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Beffer posted:CFS just got US$1.8billion to build their test fusion reactor SPARC and the commercial version ARC. Oh man this is going to be great in 15-20 years.
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Dec 2, 2021 02:48
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Oh man this is going to be great in 15-20 years. I know its the forever fusion joke, but this approach is pretty far advanced. But you're right. It's still early 2030s for ARC to come online all being well.
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Dec 2, 2021 02:56
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I'm excited!
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Dec 2, 2021 03:16
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It's so hard not to be cynical, but I am asking genuinely: is there reason to believe that SPARC or any of the multitude of new fusion startups will actually achieve success and net energy gain in 10-15 years? If so, why? What are they doing differently from ITER and all the traditional fusion research, what suggests that they are on a path to success instead of infinite delays?
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Dec 2, 2021 08:40
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aniviron posted:It's so hard not to be cynical, but I am asking genuinely: is there reason to believe that SPARC or any of the multitude of new fusion startups will actually achieve success and net energy gain in 10-15 years? If so, why? What are they doing differently from ITER and all the traditional fusion research, what suggests that they are on a path to success instead of infinite delays? Exactly the same as before, but now with BLOCKCHAIN.
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Dec 2, 2021 10:11
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The CFS approach is essentially the same as ITER but with much more powerful magnets enabled by new high temp super conductors. In theory this allows them to produce the same energy gain as iter in a machine one tenth the size and cost. They built a full scale magnet segment recently and successfully tested it beating the design parameters. This was the big tech hurdle. And that is how they’ve just gotten $1.8bn from investors. There is reason to be cautiously optimistic.
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Dec 2, 2021 11:58
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Beffer posted:Nokia was a gumboot manufacturer and went into mobile phones as a diversification! They bought in a Microsoft hack to run the company and he actively killed the effort (MeeGo) that had already launched a SmartPhone that got rave reviews. quote:Elop decided to abandon Symbian and MeeGo, looked at Android and passed (it's rumoured that Google wouldn't give them special status), and choose Microsoft Phone 7 for Nokia's future direction. No doubt Microsoft gave Nokia a billion incentives to do so, given the lukewarm reception to Windows Phone 7 at that point. https://www.pocketgamer.biz/feature/31401/playscreens-william-d-volk-asks-is-nokia-the-myspace-of-mobile/
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Dec 2, 2021 18:10
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radmonger posted:In any case, not properly investing in EV development was a clear unforced mistake by car manufacturers, not something to be argued for. It actually made a lot of sense, take a look at Toyota - most profitable car manufacturer, definitely punted on BEVs.
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Dec 3, 2021 01:37
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MomJeans420 posted:It actually made a lot of sense, take a look at Toyota - most profitable car manufacturer, definitely punted on BEVs. 
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Dec 3, 2021 05:31
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So let's take a look at some numbers, 2019 compared to 2020: https://alansfactoryoutlet.com/which-major-car-companies-were-the-most-and-least-profitable-in-2020/ Toyota? In terms of raw profitability, they were absolutely the highest. But that's a lead that they've had for literally decades. Meanwhile the EV market is experiencing massive demand right now, more than any of the manufacturers expected, and there's tons of money sitting on the table. Toyota understands that, which is why they have been dumping shitloads of money into making an EV (which they're releasing next year). Hyundai and Kia are actually closing the gap with Toyota in part because they are capitalizing on that demand while Toyota is not. 
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Dec 3, 2021 06:31
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QuarkJets posted:So let's take a look at some numbers, 2019 compared to 2020: Those percentages are bit misleading. Hyundai and Kia 'increased' their relative profits that much, because their profits for 2019 were really bad. Hyundai profit out of revenue: 2.56 / 90 billion. Kia profit out of revenue: 1.57 / 50 billion. Meanwhile the big dogs: Toyota: 19.1 / 275 billion. Volkswagen: 15.54 / 283 billion. Volvo was actually doing pretty great: 3.79 / 46 billions
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Dec 3, 2021 08:06
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QuarkJets posted:Toyota? In terms of raw profitability, they were absolutely the highest. But that's a lead that they've had for literally decades. Meanwhile the EV market is experiencing massive demand right now, more than any of the manufacturers expected, and there's tons of money sitting on the table. Toyota understands that, which is why they have been dumping shitloads of money into making an EV (which they're releasing next year). Hyundai and Kia are actually closing the gap with Toyota in part because they are capitalizing on that demand while Toyota is not. Toyota famously stuck to a hydrogen strategy rather than BEVs after basically everyone else had abandoned it. It didn't work out and now they have to catch up.
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Dec 3, 2021 08:56
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Owling Howl posted:Toyota famously stuck to a hydrogen strategy rather than BEVs after basically everyone else had abandoned it. It didn't work out and now they have to catch up. Isn't Toyota buying ready made solutions from BYD and sticking their body on top? If so, should be a pretty quick catch up.
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Dec 3, 2021 15:06
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MomJeans420 posted:It actually made a lot of sense, take a look at Toyota - most profitable car manufacturer, definitely punted on BEVs. Toyota flirted with BEV’s 2x in the past. During the CA EV initiative in the late 1990’s, early 2000’s (1997 to 2004) they had a NiMh RAV4 BEV that was quite decent. One of the cyclists I was riding with back then OWNED one (almost all were leased). 94 mile EPA range. “In March 2002, due to a shift in corporate policy, the Toyota RAV4-EV was made available for sale to the general public. All 328 that Toyota made were sold.” “The second generation RAV4 EV was released in September 2012 starting at a price of US$49,800 before any government incentives.[4][10] Toyota also offered a 36-month lease option at US$599 per month with down payment of US$3,499.[10] The RAV4 EV was sold only in California, and sales began in the San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles/Orange County and San Diego.” There’s one a few houses away from me. “ The second generation RAV4 EV combines a Tesla-designed and produced battery and electric powertrain with Toyota's SUV model. “
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Dec 3, 2021 19:02
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https://twitter.com/DecouplePodcast/status/1466847638226145284?s=20 Really good discussion around how comparing Fossil Fuel usages in Africa doesn't even compare to the emissions from Germany shuttering 8GW of nuclear
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Dec 3, 2021 21:26
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Owling Howl posted:Toyota famously stuck to a hydrogen strategy rather than BEVs after basically everyone else had abandoned it. It didn't work out and now they have to catch up. The Japanese government wanted a hydrogen/fuel cell based vehicle transition and the manufacturers based there stumbled around a bit even after it became obvious it wasn’t cost effective. Fortunately for them, sticking your badge on another companies product is a long standing practice in the automotive industry, so they should be fine doing that while making the transition to BEV in their own lineup.
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Dec 5, 2021 06:51
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Record electricity prices ATM and also a record cold november and december. Maybe not record breaking but it's frickin cold anyway, -20 right now and the temperature has been going up and down from -14 at warmest to -27 at it's coldest. I've adjusted my heatpump down so that the indoor temp is 16C, then I burn firewood to get it to 20C. The way things are looking I don't want to be dependent on electricity anymore.
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Dec 7, 2021 11:25
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His Divine Shadow posted:Record electricity prices ATM and also a record cold november and december. Maybe not record breaking but it's frickin cold anyway, -20 right now and the temperature has been going up and down from -14 at warmest to -27 at it's coldest. I've adjusted my heatpump down so that the indoor temp is 16C, then I burn firewood to get it to 20C. One thing I've never understood about these systems is that surely it must be more efficient to have an alternative coolant loop attached to the burner to use as a heat source when outside temperatures are really low. Is it simply a coolant chemistry problem?
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Dec 7, 2021 12:07
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Aethernet posted:One thing I've never understood about these systems is that surely it must be more efficient to have an alternative coolant loop attached to the burner to use as a heat source when outside temperatures are really low. Is it simply a coolant chemistry problem? Solutions like that do exist (they work against a big tank), but the question in my case is: Where am I gonna store all that heat? To realistically store the energy given off by burning wood for a hydronic system you need a tank, and it'd be a pretty huge project to add one if it does not already have it. I do not for instance. The common wisdom here is to make effective use of a wood boiler is that you need an insulated tank of many cubic meters at least. It's fine if that's gonna be your primary heating system, or if you are building a new house. So I have a masonry heater that weighs in at around 1385kg iirc. It's quite effective at heating the house and I don't need a boiler room or any plumbing work done. I'd love to have a boiler room though, but it's not realistic.
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Dec 7, 2021 12:58
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I mean that's the downside of every air source pump. If you really care, you dig a hole.
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Dec 8, 2021 09:39
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evil_bunnY posted:I mean that's the downside of every air source pump. If you really care, you dig a hole. I got a borehole for my pump. It still requires electricity.
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Dec 8, 2021 12:07
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His Divine Shadow posted:I got a borehole for my pump. It still requires electricity.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:17
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I live in Finland, the cheapest option I got is more firewood.
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Dec 9, 2021 14:54
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Speaking of Finland https://twitter.com/tvo_fi/status/1468533569014444035?s=20 quote:Great news from Olkiluoto! The application for the criticality and low power test permit for the #OL3 plant unit has been submitted to Also, new climate denial strategy: Conservatives want to outlaw 'Woke Capitalism' that discriminates against fossil fuels https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kb84z/woke-capitalism-discriminates-against-fossil-fuels-conservative-lawmakers-say CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 14:59
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