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Never let reading comprehension get in the way of jumping in for a sloppy hot take
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Mar 20, 2022 14:53
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| # ? May 24, 2024 20:23 |
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In case anyone was not aware, Chruchill was actively and openly homicidal when it came to starving Indians in his empirequote:Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India’s viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were “breeding like rabbits”, and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study
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Mar 20, 2022 15:01
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wait til you find out what Stalin thought of Ukrainians! they were exporting grain during the Holodomor too.
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Mar 20, 2022 15:03
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This is a really dumb competition that the USA won centuries prior.
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Mar 20, 2022 15:05
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punishedkissinger posted:wait til you find out what Stalin thought of Ukrainians! they were exporting grain during the Holodomor too. Yeah I mean that's my point, their crimes were on the same scale so an off-hand comment that Churchill was better should really be backed up by some kind of analysis better than "Stalin bad" because it's hardly self-evident
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Mar 20, 2022 15:06
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VitalSigns posted:In case anyone was not aware, Chruchill was actively and openly homicidal when it came to starving Indians in his empire I'm confused. Where did Sarcastr0 try to claim that Churchill didn't cause a massive famine/deaths of millions? Or that Sarcastr0 tried to claim that Churchill wasn't bad? Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 15:06
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Churchill was democratically elected so his actions are divided amongst all of the people of his nation and thus so diffuse that no one has any responsibility at all
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Mar 20, 2022 15:08
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steinrokkan posted:Never let reading comprehension get in the way of jumping in for a sloppy hot take Then be clearer. Are you meaning to imply that Putin is on par with Hitler? Because otherwise, you're joking that fighting the bigger threat always takes precedence but then you downplay allying with fascists to presently do it when America partnered with Stalin specifically to defeat fascism. Or is your argument having nothing to do with ideology, in which case, why bring ideology up?
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Mar 20, 2022 15:10
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Probably Magic posted:Then be clearer. Are you meaning to imply that Putin is on par with Hitler? Because otherwise, you're joking that fighting the bigger threat always takes precedence but then you downplay allying with fascists to presently do it when America partnered with Stalin specifically to defeat fascism. Or is your argument having nothing to do with ideology, in which case, why bring ideology up? No, I'm referring to the cavalcade of posters foaming at the mouth to be the first to type "So you really think Churchill was so great huh?" in response to a post starting with "Churchill was bad".
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Mar 20, 2022 15:14
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I blink. Some time has passed. US CE has completed its true form metamorphosis and is once again USPOL
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Mar 20, 2022 15:15
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Uspol never went anywhere because historical events and the influence of capital continue to drive everything happening today.
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Mar 20, 2022 15:24
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah I mean that's my point, their crimes were on the same scale so an off-hand comment that Churchill was better should really be backed up by some kind of analysis better than "Stalin bad" because it's hardly self-evident The original claim seemed to be "both killed millions in the 'lesser' parts of their respective empires but one of them, you know, actually fought alongside the Nazis until they stabbed him in the back." Which is extra weird given just how obvious that backstab was even at the time and how unprepared for it he was. That negligence in itself probably killed millions of his own people. At the time too, there was no shortage of American leftists who went along the same path of how we shouldn't oppose Germany with much handwringing about not feeding needless war, and it went right up until the moment they attacked the Soviets. I guess it's interesting in a historical sense whether their organizations were funded by Hitler, Stalin, both, or neither. But it doesn't have much bearing on someone saying "what masters they served." They clearly understood it at the time whether money crossed palms or not, and there were also plenty of leftists who saw through that bullshit then too.
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Mar 20, 2022 15:27
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bird food bathtub posted:Ignoring all context and flattening everything down to "Ah-ha! Nazis! Both sides bad same-same!" does not make a strong argument, most especially when one side of that argument is regurgitated propaganda used as a laughably thin bullshit casus belli from a nation currently performing a ground invasion killing tens of thousands on all sides. and now, azov are being lauded by western media as the plucky little defenders of Ukraine, getting first pick of western armament due to their direct integration into the Ukranian military, and the same people January 6 rendered catatonic with horror are saying 'well, whatchagonnado, sometimes you just gotta arm fascists." as long as we're discussing context, recall what we were talking about : the assertion that the DSA displaying insufficient patriotic fervor in the new national struggle must be because of powerful, shadowy backers. other people's opposition to imperialism could be just as negotiable as the way these people 'oppose' fascism, without needing to invent a Keyser Soze whose master plan concludes with 'several liberals who saw a tweet from the DSA get sulky about it.'
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Mar 20, 2022 15:33
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Invading Poland was pretty evil, I don't know that it's a morality trump card given all the places Britain invaded and subjugated and people the empire massacred. Interesting parallels with the DSA discussion, where they are denounced and have lost all credibility because they aren't supporting hostile enough action against an aggressor, meanwhile Biden is shipping weapons to the aggressor committing genocide in Yemen but somehow this is not a dealbreaker for political support for him and his party, pobody's nerfect. After all as the liberal media keeps reminding me this time the aggression is happening in Europe where people are civilized and these kind of things aren't supposed to happen, not somewhere like Asia where it's expected.
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Mar 20, 2022 15:45
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the people advocating pragmatic compromise with fascists to accomplish shared political goals in Eastern Europe bringing up Stalin is confusing to me we are agreed that Molotov-Ribbentrop was bad, and in fact not something that should have been done, on the grounds supporting fascists is bad, yes?
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Mar 20, 2022 15:58
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Nobody is making pragmatic compromises with fascists, the only people suggesting that are the actual fascists, hth.
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Mar 20, 2022 16:04
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steinrokkan posted:Nobody is making pragmatic compromises with fascists, the only people suggesting that are the actual fascists, hth. ah, good, the photo ops in western news trumpeting the plucky Azov Batallion and sonnenrad-toting girlbosses picking over freshly arrived western weaponry were in error. great relief to hear. can you point me to where that turned out to be the case, it'll be a load off my mind.
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Mar 20, 2022 16:10
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:ah, good, the photo ops in western news trumpeting the plucky Azov Batallion and sonnenrad-toting girlbosses picking over freshly arrived western weaponry were in error. great relief to hear. can you point me to where that turned out to be the case, it'll be a load off my mind. I haven't seen that, but even assuming your characterization is correct, that doesn't have anything to do with compromising with fascists on the national level, like we're talking about.
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Mar 20, 2022 16:31
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Sarcastr0 posted:I haven't seen that, but even assuming your characterization is correct, that doesn't have anything to do with compromising with fascists on the national level, like we're talking about. sorry, I have to be misreading this, give me a hand. is it okay for America to support fascists in other countries as long as they're not expressly setting national policy?
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Mar 20, 2022 16:37
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sorry, I have to be misreading this, give me a hand. is it okay for America to support fascists in other countries as long as they're not expressly setting national policy?
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Mar 20, 2022 16:47
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Sarcastr0 posted:Is this article (could you link to it, for context) you found speaking for America? depends which bit you want. do you want a pr piece on the plucky azov batallion, do you want NATO's international women's day pr blast being a #girlboss #resistance fighter toting a sonnenrad, do you want photos of azov picking over newly arrived weapons, or do you want to answer the question about whether it becomes okay for America to arm fascists as long as the fascists aren't currently in charge of the country. I understand how people have gotten to 'well, sometimes you have to support fascists, to avert a greater evil, and hopefully it won't end up biting us in the rear end.' it's a messy situation, and there is no clean way out. and when they are subject to stress, even good american liberals can find themselves sympathetic to Stalin's position, about how it really is convenient to give the fascists what they're asking for, just this once, as a treat.
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Mar 20, 2022 17:01
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Speaking of the 1930s, Ukraine just banned 11 more political parties with the reasoning that they are fifth columnists being funded by Russia, although I don't know enough about Ukrainian politics to know if say the socialist party are milquetoast Social Democrats or Russian stooges being financed from the Kremlinquote:The National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine decided to ban the activity of Opposition Party —For Life, Shariy Party, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Left Forces, State, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc, Zelensky said. https://www.axios.com/ukraine-ban-political-parties-russian-ties-af264ecd-9ad4-4e98-9f87-76f32300fd5f.html
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Mar 20, 2022 17:18
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VitalSigns posted:Speaking of the 1930s, Ukraine just banned 11 more political parties with the reasoning that they are fifth columnists being funded by Russia, although I don't know enough about Ukrainian politics to know if say the socialist party are milquetoast Social Democrats or Russian stooges being financed from the Kremlin Well I'll give you a hint: the Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine is a member of the All-Russia People's Front and its leader and founder is this lady, who as the Wikipedia page helpfully notes: "Vitrenko is a member of the Eurasian Youth Union, a group led by Russian philosopher Alexandr Dugin.[6]" Also, this guy: 
SoggyBobcat fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 17:30
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:depends which bit you want. do you want a pr piece on the plucky azov batallion, do you want NATO's international women's day pr blast being a #girlboss #resistance fighter toting a sonnenrad, do you want photos of azov picking over newly arrived weapons, or do you want to answer the question about whether it becomes okay for America to arm fascists as long as the fascists aren't currently in charge of the country. You appear to be arguing against the US entering WW2, since that meant allying with Stalin and Churchill. Is that correct? Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:when they are subject to stress, even good american liberals can find themselves sympathetic to Stalin's position, about how it really is convenient to give the fascists what they're asking for, just this once, as a treat.
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Mar 20, 2022 17:34
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VitalSigns posted:Speaking of the 1930s, Ukraine just banned 11 more political parties with the reasoning that they are fifth columnists being funded by Russia, although I don't know enough about Ukrainian politics to know if say the socialist party are milquetoast Social Democrats or Russian stooges being financed from the Kremlin Super quick check, the Socialist Party of Ukraine came out of the remnants of the old Soviet Communist Party. The Progressive Socialist Party came out of that and is ran by a woman who likes LaRouche, advocates for Ukraine reunifying with Russia, and is a member of the Eurasian Youth Union. Union of Left Forces came out of that party as well but I can't find anything really about them, other than that they didn't participate in 2012 or 2014. Opposition Bloc is the party Manafort worked as a consultant for, and if I'm reading this right For Life came out of the Opposition Bloc. Shariy Party is a liberatarian party founded by Anatoly Shariy. His brother, a member, was involved in occupying some Kharkiv government building in 2014, and their curator was chilling at a military training ground in Russia in 2017. No clue about Left Opposition, the Socialists Party, or the Volodymyr Saldo Bloc I think of all these parties, only Opposition Bloc/For Life had any seats? edit: Ukraine charged For Life's former chariman with treason last year so I guess how much you think they're collaborating depends on how much you believe that. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 17:42
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VitalSigns posted:Speaking of the 1930s, Ukraine just banned 11 more political parties with the reasoning that they are fifth columnists being funded by Russia, although I don't know enough about Ukrainian politics to know if say the socialist party are milquetoast Social Democrats or Russian stooges being financed from the Kremlin From what people who follow Ukrainian politics seem to say they run the gamut from "Kremlin money trail isn't even hidden" to "We must restore the USSR to eliminate the homosexuals and other Western degenerates" types to, yeah, the already mentioned Illia Kyva that doesn't really seem to have changed views so much as labels from his far right roots. So a lot of it comes out to how Germany still bans NSDAP (with "socialst" right in the name!) and other parts are literal allies of an ongoing invasion. You can argue it's lovely in peacetime depending on how fascist you think parties in a free country should be allowed to be, or even in the "wartime" of an agressor state invading other countries like when the US was in Iraq, but it's harder to call it that damning for a country in a genuine existential war.
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Mar 20, 2022 17:49
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Sarcastr0 posted:Pick your favorite, but none of these seem like they're speaking for America to me. as long as we have no disagreement about the US currently arming fascists in Ukraine, and that people are defending that as better than the alternative at the moment, 'speaking for America' would appear to be tangential anyway. so, to reiterate my original question: does it become okay for Americans to support fascists (i.e. by arming them) if the fascists are not calling the shots in the country? because we are, at this moment, doing that, per the requests from those fascists that we give them more weaponry, on the grounds that it is convenient for our geopolitical aims (i.e. gently caress the Russian invasion) if a bunch of murderous right wing psychopaths who consider other races subhuman are better able to enforce their will on their surroundings. as such, American liberals find themselves in the strange position of being shoulder to shoulder with the ghost of Stalin, saying 'yeah sometimes you gotta hand it to the nazis if you want to accomplish your near term goals in Eastern Europe.' worse yet, the dsa finds itself trapped in the rational middle ground between those two extremes.
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Mar 20, 2022 17:53
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Isn't Ukraine the one arming Azov, and we're arming Ukraine? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to characterize the act of arming Ukraine as arming Nazi's? Or are you saying that Ukraine is so overrun with Nazi's that arming them period is arming fascists? Sorry it's hard to keep track of your actual point behind all that self righteous sarcasm and nihilism.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:04
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You say it over and over, but I don’t think you have established that America is arming fascists.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:05
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Actually found something on Left Opposition, which I guess is/was some coalition of those parties. I can't find the websites referred to there, so grain of salt I suppose. Did find from this article, which mentioned that this neo-nazi used to be part of the Progressive Socialist Party, and from what I can tell trained with this neo-nazi paramilitary group prior to joining that party. So gonna guess that the ones running with the socialist labels aren't actually socialists or even milquetoast social democrats. Although whether or not any of them are actually cooperating with Russia in a material sense, other than For Life and maybe that weirdo blogger's vanity project, I dunno.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:28
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Isn't Ukraine the one arming Azov, and we're arming Ukraine? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to characterize the act of arming Ukraine as arming Nazi's? Didn't I just hear a bunch of liberals cheering that Remington can be sued for arming people that carry out mass shootings? And now you're arguing that the responsibility of an arms dealer ends the second the weapon leaves their hands? Those kind of mental gymnastics are pretty handy though. They absolve the Biden admin from arming Nazis AND assisting with a genocide in Yemen.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:34
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Is there any movement from Democrats to attack the GOP as being very pro-Russia as a mid-terms strategy? Considering the absolute assault Dems have taken at the hands of weirdo anti-CRT chuds and now false-grooming and false-pedophilia charges there has to be some kind of fight-back on the national level planned I assume? I didn't think the school-board strategy would have built the kind of momentum it's built but that seems to have been an extremely effective strategy for them. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 18:38
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Bishyaler posted:Didn't I just hear a bunch of liberals cheering that Remington can be sued for arming people that carry out mass shootings? And now you're arguing that the responsibility of an arms dealer ends the second the weapon leaves their hands? I argued no such thing. Please engage with my words not whatever this is. Nonsense posted:Is there any movement from Democrats to attack the GOP as being very pro-Russia as a mid-terms strategy? Considering the absolute assault Dems have taken at the hands of weirdo anti-CRT chuds and now false-grooming and false-pedophilia charges there has to be some kind of fight-back on the national level planned I assume? I doubt it would be effective anyway. The school board coalition will have to be engaged with on local issues. National elections maybe, but there are far far better issues to engage on. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 18:43
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I argued no such thing. Please engage with my words not whatever this is. You were arguing that the transitive property doesn't exist. If the US is arming Ukraine and Ukraine is arming Nazis, the US is arming Nazis.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:47
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Bishyaler posted:You were arguing that the transitive property doesn't exist. If the US is arming Ukraine and Ukraine is arming Nazis, the US is arming Nazis. Of course the US is arming Nazis. The goddam LAPD is full of Nazis. The American armed forces are full of nazis in all branches. Is there a major military on earth that isn't arming Nazis?
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Mar 20, 2022 18:52
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Bishyaler posted:You were arguing that the transitive property doesn't exist. If the US is arming Ukraine and Ukraine is arming Nazis, the US is arming Nazis. I’m not sure that applies to aid? Like, some social security payments may go to the Trump campaign but that doesn’t mean the Social Security Administration supports Trump.
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Mar 20, 2022 18:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Of course the US is arming Nazis. The goddam LAPD is full of Nazis. The American armed forces are full of nazis in all branches. I'm not sure that an appeal to popularity is a productive position if you want to keep weapons out of the hands of Nazis.
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Mar 20, 2022 19:00
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I doubt it would be effective anyway. The school board coalition will have to be engaged with on local issues. National elections maybe, but there are far far better issues to engage on. Especially the anti-LGBTQ laws that are popping up, going after the GOP for that is good as well.
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Mar 20, 2022 19:00
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Bishyaler posted:You were arguing that the transitive property doesn't exist. If the US is arming Ukraine and Ukraine is arming Nazis, the US is arming Nazis. I'm sure there are people on social security or recieving food assistance who are Nazis. Should those programs be halted until we can insure no Nazis get anything? The Lend-lease example is a good one that people don't seem to be addressing: why was sending material support to Stalin and Churchill okay? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 19:12
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| # ? May 24, 2024 20:23 |
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This kind of rhetoric is exactly why people were criticizing that brand of extremist leftist talking points a few days ago. You can't have that kind of approach but also want universal health care, UBI, etc. Always having the most extreme and uncharitable interpretation of any topic just means no one takes you seriously.
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Mar 20, 2022 19:21
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