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Lord_Magmar posted:The Faerie isn’t Gaia or her preincarnation it’s something else. Specifically, the 'fairy' in Gaia's mind was actually Mitron's voice. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 08:34
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central dogma posted:Given the interviews I've seen, Yoshi claims all will be revealed soon and story elements large and small should be tied up neatly woth a bow. Hopefully we'll get a chat with G'raha about how the Exarch stuff settled in him
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Nov 26, 2021 08:38
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Cleretic posted:Specifically, the 'fairy' in Gaia's mind was actually Mitron's voice. TGLT had not yet done the final parts of Eden so I was avoiding specific spoilers. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 08:45
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Same.
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Nov 26, 2021 08:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:TGLT had not yet done the final parts of Eden so I was avoiding specific spoilers. Fair enough, my bad! Honestly, it's so rare that people in this thread haven't done at times a concerningly large amount of the game's content that it's weird when someone hasn't done part of it. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 09:17
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Moen's cool because she's a large lady roe. that is all.
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Nov 26, 2021 11:25
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I kinda want to know about other Azems. The ones that held that seat before the last one that the WoL is a reincarnation of. There could totally have been ex-Azems that stepped down because they fell in love with some particular part of the word they traveled through. When you have super long lived ancients, having a whole bunch of emet-selchs, lahabreas, etc around because they stepped down for one reason or another after serving for a long time seems reasonable.
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Nov 26, 2021 12:07
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I always took the Azem stuff to be more ironic echoes than anything. After all, you're not the first warrior of light. Hell, you're probably not even the latest. Somewhere another person is hailed as a hero and called a warrior of light. You're not even the biggest, the shards seem to have a lot less complete fuckery compared to the Source's calamities so there's probably a few warriors of lights who are enduring cultural legends the world over while you're still, well, alive. You're still writing your story and that's not even taken into account all the others who'll take authorship of it. So is it a coincidence that you, who bear a fragment of Azem's sundered soul, are also walking a very similar path to his? Shrug. It's not like all your past lives' selves were adventurers of renown. I mean, you could believe they were, that Azem's soul weighs so heavily on who you are that it must've done so previously too. But when the game talks about people in the past and present, I don't see people gripped by being reincarnations. I just see people, who grasp at life and living as best they can, and all the flaws and friction is just part of the human condition. You bearing Azem's soul just rhymes well and presents well, but it's not actually impacting you in some innate inherent way. I mean you knowing can impact it from now on, but that's separate.
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Nov 26, 2021 13:17
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I mean from a purely "well actually" sense, if indeed this is all reincarnation Azem is not a past self. Our character's self once experienced the world as Azem, then experienced the world as ??? different lives, and is now doing so as the WoL. Azem was a moment in time and is now dead and gone. However the fragment of a soul stuff reads more to like a seed from a tree to me, since self is kind of an atomic concept. I mean if they wanted to write about selves being split that's their decision, but the fact Ardbert can have his fairly personal conversation with Seto at the end - and the fact it felt like they left the door for our +1 hopping out again - says to me that the WoL is a more fundamentally distinct entity from Azem than just being a different incarnation. More important to me though is that Shadowbringers reads to me as a story about inheritance and you cannot inherit from yourself. Azem fits very neatly into that story as an ancestor who's legacy we've inherited - especially paired with how Emet refuses to let go of the past. Maybe when I finally get to the finale of Eden my opinion on the mechanics of FF14 souls will change, but I bet I'll be disappointed by that because I'm far more interested in a story with themes that have some sort of real world grounding than I am in Lore. Cleretic posted:Fair enough, my bad! Lord_Magmar posted:TGLT had not yet done the final parts of Eden so I was avoiding specific spoilers. i have in this thread gone "oh it's mitron, neat" I'm not posting in this thread because I'm afraid of spoilers. I'm a big tough WoL and I take 75% reduced damage from spoilers. I'm playing Eden to help my video game niece hook up with a goth, anything other than a plan to give her more coffee biscuits to throw at Gaia like she was trying to feed a duck is irrelevant to me. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 14:18
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Pharohman777 posted:I kinda want to know about other Azems. Similarly... completely minor, but I wanna hear that one of the Ascians was actually a pretty bad office bearer. I'm not talking corrupt or evil, although I'm banking on that being true of at least one of them. I mean literally just 'this person was put into a position that was completely outside of their ability, and people could tell'. In terms of actual on-the-job performance, we only know that Lahabrea was fairly well-regarded, which I suspect was to compensate for the fact that he was kind of a dipshit in ARR and HW. I want to hear the flipside, see an Amaurotian testimony of 'oh god, this new Convocation member is terrible; put in charge of roads, can't figure out a multi-lane roundabout'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 14:18
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Cleretic posted:Similarly... completely minor, but I wanna hear that one of the Ascians was actually a pretty bad office bearer. I'm not talking corrupt or evil, although I'm banking on that being true of at least one of them. I mean literally just 'this person was put into a position that was completely outside of their ability, and people could tell'. Whilst a rather funny thought, it seems that for 12 of the 14 seats they select the eminent scholars in a relative field. Hythlodaeus and Hades were both considered for Emet-Selch specifically because of their skills and capabilities with the afterlife/lifestream. I say 12 of the 14 because Elidibus appears to be a position held by an unsullied youth, one able to simply decide for the council, and the seat of Azem seems more based on your desire to adventure and travel the world than any academic or creative capabilities. I imagine you might get incompetent high up Ancients in the various city services, but for the Convocation itself it seems unlikely to occur. Or unlikely to remain in position long given that the rest of the convocation appear to have some choice in who holds the seats. Also you absolutely can inherit from yourself, that’s what reincarnation kind of is. In fact Sadu’s tribe believes in that form of reincarnation, and have a story about a reincarnated warrior who was an archer in a previous life and is now a sword wielded and that this is recognised not as some mistake, but simply a new facet of the reincarnation chain. Each reincarnation is it’s own being as part of the unbroken chain of existence but that soul resonates through each. An example that I think is relatively relevant is the Avatar in well, Avatar the last Airbender. The Avatar is one soul reincarnated over and over, each individual reincarnation is a unique person, but still things resonate, and ultimately the chain all recognises themselves as one in the same, willing to trust their current embodiment even if they’re all different personalities. To me it seems likely that all fragments of Azem end up being wandering adventurers big or small. Simply because that’s who they are, even though each is still a unique individual with thoughts and feelings.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:04
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The person who sat in Azem's seat sat there because of the person they were, there is nothing about the chair that changed the person sitting in it. (That was more an invention of the Unsundered.)
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Nov 26, 2021 17:14
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Gearhead posted:The person who sat in Azem's seat sat there because of the person they were, there is nothing about the chair that changed the person sitting in it. Yes, the seats themselves did not change who you were. But they likely selected people with skills and traits matching the original 14. So the seat of Azem the Traveller likely was held by an adventurous travelling sort because that’s what the job was for. The seat of Emet-Selch the Architect demanded a perfectionist designer with grand capabilities, and apparently a unique capability with the Lifestream. The seat of Elidibus the Emissary was one that needed an unbiased innocent to fairly finalise decisions amongst the convocation when opinions were split. Honestly the other thing I can think of for the memory crystals of the convocation is how the job soul crystals work. Where you can access the memories of past holders to learn skills and so on.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:22
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yes, the seats themselves did not change who you were. But they likely selected people with skills and traits matching the original 14. There's also the nethicite/auracite stuff in the Bojza/Ivalice stuff which is A Different Type of Soul Job Crystal that also stores memories because memories and emotions can be pressed upon the aether and made physical.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:27
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Temulun knew 
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Nov 26, 2021 17:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:There's also the nethicite/auracite stuff in the Bojza/Ivalice stuff which is A Different Type of Soul Job Crystal that also stores memories because memories and emotions can be pressed upon the aether and made physical. I'm really wondering about 'strange crystalized matter that isn't an elemental crystal' in the setting. We have White Auracite, we have Ivalician Auracite and we have Giantsgall. I'm sure there's more I've forgotten.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:34
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https://twitter.com/gottaeateggs/status/1464111846579859460?t=MN4Rlz9KjdSspNzLzHi6wg&s=19
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Nov 26, 2021 17:38
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also you absolutely can inherit from yourself, that’s what reincarnation kind of is. In fact Sadu’s tribe believes in that form of reincarnation, and have a story about a reincarnated warrior who was an archer in a previous life and is now a sword wielded and that this is recognised not as some mistake, but simply a new facet of the reincarnation chain. Each reincarnation is it’s own being as part of the unbroken chain of existence but that soul resonates through each. I mean, at this point we're just going to have to disagree. Reincarnation is continuation - the self is indestructible, and when it dies it sheds its memory and body before migrating to a new life. That's renewal, to me, not inheritance. The Dotharl read as very much like that. They discard the body as some old bullshit on the side of the road and wait for the person to reappear in some one else's eyes. In one life they were a close friend, in this life now they are their child, but either way they are clearly understood and accepted as they are treated as the same person - even taking on their name. It's why they're the undying ones. It's why Sadu's mention of seasons is appropriate. I get why people go in on the WoL being Azem in some meaningful sense, but it's ultimately an interpretation I just don't find compelling.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:41
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There are similarities but you're not the same and not defined by it. I'm sure you probably have as much in common with Azem as you did with Ardbert, which is to say, you liked to help people and liked to do it through beating up people some times.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:43
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All I'm saying is if Hydaelyn calls us Azem (or Persephone or whatever) in Endwalker I'm going to max out my mining job on the big crystal.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:46
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Even if literally every reincarnation is the same person 100% at its base (which I don't believe) the circumstances of each reincarnation's life are so radically different that it doesn't matter at all. Other than I guess the "likes helping people" thing seemingly baked into Azem's core personality which, like I don't know why that'd bug people.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:48
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TGLT posted:All I'm saying is if Hydaelyn calls us Azem (or Persephone or whatever) in Endwalker I'm going to max out my mining job on the big crystal. Venat will call you Azem and then Alisaie will yell at her and deliver a profanity-laced lecture on the nature of being
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Nov 26, 2021 18:00
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Other than I guess the "likes helping people" thing seemingly baked into Azem's core personality which, like I don't know why that'd bug people. I can't really put my finger on that one either. I rather like the wider character arc that all this implies, that your character has always been that weird friend that everybody likes, eternally off on some whacky adventure Helping People in one way or another.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:01
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To me reincarnation doesn't fit into Shadowbringer's ideas about inheritance as well as being Azem's spirit child does. It has our character more directly parallel Ryne, Vauthry, hell even the Qiqirin and the Ronkan Empire, and the rest of the people who are dealing with issues of what they've inherited from past generations. If it ends up being a far more literal "your self was once Azem" that's fine but less interesting to me. FF14 isn't a particularly religious game so for it to directly incorporate reincarnation in that way would just feel like lore stuff that weakens the themes that made Shadowbringers good for me. Wouldn't ruin it or anything though. And I don't think the text has really settled on a strong or explicit enough answer yet, though I imagine we'll get one in Endwalker. when azem high fives us before going off to party island
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Nov 26, 2021 18:09
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TGLT posted:I mean, at this point we're just going to have to disagree. Reincarnation is continuation - the self is indestructible, and when it dies it sheds its memory and body before migrating to a new life. Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I feel like the real-life forefront proponent of reincarnation, the Buddha, might have words with you and your insistence on the self being key to reincarnation considering that lack of self is a key tenet of Buddhism. Of course, XIV reincarnation probably does not adhere to Buddhist theological explanations, but your line stood out to me and made me amused.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:10
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I mean we've never once dealt with the idea of karma beyond the Dotharl, who's opinions are "do as much sick rear end poo poo as you can because reincarnation is cool as hell" and the game mostly seems to agree with them. And Buddhism doesn't have a life stream, that's more of a well of souls kind of thing. FF14 doesn't really seem to offer a path out of a cycle of death and rebirth. It ain't Dark Souls 2, the foremost text on Buddhism Also anatta is kind of a rejection of the Hindu idea of a permanent unchanging soul, so it's a bit more complicated and maybe not a good fit for the game with crystalized soul stuffs. I dunno, I'm no Buddhism expert. edit: The idea of soul fragmentation fits well enough though I guess? TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 18:14
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People are forgetting Azem is the name of the Seat, not the Ancient. The WoL can perfectly be the inheritor to Azem while being a different person. And given we know Azem's role was to travel around making friends and solving problems I'd say the WoL is pretty much fulfilling those functions  .
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Nov 26, 2021 18:19
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wait the seats have souls
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Nov 26, 2021 18:28
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Super No Vacancy posted:wait the seats have souls no, but feets do
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Nov 26, 2021 18:32
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:People are forgetting Azem is the name of the Seat, not the Ancient. The WoL can perfectly be the inheritor to Azem while being a different person. And given we know Azem's role was to travel around making friends and solving problems I'd say the WoL is pretty much fulfilling those functions Keep in mind that the game was outright saying that you were the reincarnation of someone Emet-Selch and Hylothodeus were a friend of, well before they ever talked about the Seat of Azem. 'Azem' is just a handy label for the person who was sitting in that chair, who happened to be Emet-Selch and Hylothodeus' friend.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:33
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Ibblebibble posted:Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I feel like the real-life forefront proponent of reincarnation, the Buddha, might have words with you and your insistence on the self being key to reincarnation considering that lack of self is a key tenet of Buddhism. Of course, XIV reincarnation probably does not adhere to Buddhist theological explanations, but your line stood out to me and made me amused. Isn’t the Buddha an opponent of reincarnation? Like, he’s trying to get the whole thing to stop
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Nov 26, 2021 19:02
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I think we're placing too much emphasis on the seat. The Seat of Azem got obliterated with the rest of Ancient civilization 13000 odd years ago and that's not coming back. The unsundered cared about that bullshit, but the whole point is you're not attached to the past as they were because you care about people around you now. People matter. The WoL has the 8/14ths of the soul of the last person who held that seat, and you might have some of their memories, but you're not the same person. It's all just to give a story reason for how you're strong enough to fight godlike beings, and that traveling the world helping people is part of your soul.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:06
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thetoughestbean posted:Isn’t the Buddha an opponent of reincarnation? Like, he’s trying to get the whole thing to stop I meant more that he believed that it was a thing that existed, rather than thinking that it was a positive thing.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:07
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what if fandaniel's memory crystal was affected by the sound and it's a escheresque gibbering monstrosity up there
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Nov 26, 2021 19:08
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Gearhead posted:I'm really wondering about 'strange crystalized matter that isn't an elemental crystal' in the setting. We have White Auracite, we have Ivalician Auracite and we have Giantsgall. I'm sure there's more I've forgotten. Kidney stones
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Nov 26, 2021 19:26
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FAUXTON posted:what if fandaniel's memory crystal was affected by the sound and it's a escheresque gibbering monstrosity up there This is one of the ideas I have floating around in my head. I really do feel like The Sound will be a major issue going forward as removing both Zodiark and Hydelain from the equation puts us in a position where that MIGHT be something we gotta deal with. Likely in some reduced fashion, since it would've been Sundered with everything else.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:27
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Gearhead posted:This is one of the ideas I have floating around in my head. I really do feel like The Sound will be a major issue going forward as removing both Zodiark and Hydelain from the equation puts us in a position where that MIGHT be something we gotta deal with. It kinda seems like it's something we're going to be dealing with right now, where else do you think all those apocalypse beasts in the trailers are coming from?
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Nov 26, 2021 19:51
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multijoe posted:It kinda seems like it's something we're going to be dealing with right now, where else do you think all those apocalypse beasts in the trailers are coming from? Same. I dont think the expansion is going to end with Hydaelyn and Zodiark. I think we're going to end up retracing Azem's steps to the source of the Noise.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:54
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A big ol’ mass of aether splits the lifestream in two until it passes
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Nov 26, 2021 19:57
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GoingPostal posted:Same. I dont think the expansion is going to end with Hydaelyn and Zodiark. I think we're going to end up retracing Azem's steps to the source of the Noise. Are we going to find out Zodiark was just gaslighting the Convocation while Azem tracked down the Noise and stabbed it?
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Nov 26, 2021 20:20
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