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Pookah posted:I was just posting about this in another thread, it's what got me thinking about that period. Just the absolute stupidity of inviting an entirely foreign, entirely mercenary army into your own country to 'help' you regain power without considering that maybe they'll decide to just keep going and take over themselves. This is surprisingly common; the Visigoths hired the Muslim armies into Spain in order to fight in a succession dispute. And then they just... stayed...
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Feb 21, 2021 20:17
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Deteriorata posted:That's basically how the Saxons took over England, as well. The Britons didn't have any standing army of their own and the Romans took the army, the armor, and most of the skilled tradesmen with them when they left. The Anglo-Saxon takeover of Britannia was way more complicated than this, but it's hard to know definitively because we have about four or five primary sources. Also the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle's version is mostly Wessex propaganda. sullat posted:This is surprisingly common; the Visigoths hired the Muslim armies into Spain in order to fight in a succession dispute. And then they just... stayed... There is no historical evidence for this. Nobody hired the Muslim armies that invaded Spain.
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Feb 21, 2021 20:26
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The only Muslim army that was hired was the governor of Sicily appealed to the North Africans to fight the Roman Emperor. Least it’s the only one I know
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Feb 21, 2021 20:51
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CharlestheHammer posted:The only Muslim army that was hired was the governor of Sicily appealed to the North Africans to fight the Roman Emperor. Well, you'd know wouldn't you?
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Feb 21, 2021 21:54
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Posted it in the MilHist thread- any questions about the Korean War? My grandfather was a draftee and has an account. He was a draftee for which army?
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Feb 21, 2021 22:50
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Mr. Belpit posted:He was a draftee for which army? Muslims mercenaries in Ireland
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Feb 21, 2021 23:02
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the normans did basically the exact same thing in southern Italy. And that's where the word 'normalization' came from. I hope you all learned something today.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:09
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They were called the Normandy landings because the USA were invited to assist with a domestic conflict, and after they arrived and won the war they set up a bunch of American client states and fortresses instead of leaving.
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Feb 22, 2021 11:59
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Pookah posted:I was just looking up something relating to the Norman invasion of Ireland, and came across a very interesting insight into the difference between what was considered proper behaviour in Irish and English Royal circles: According to the Chronicles of John Froissart, a man called Henry Castide was sent by the then English King to coach the 4 Irish kings (each province had its own king) on how to behave in the English court: Interesting. About what year was this?
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Feb 22, 2021 23:10
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And even then during the Plantation of Ulster, when Ireland was properly colonized with the displacement of the natives and British settlers being moved in centuries later, the English expected the Old English families in Ireland to side with them but most of them had become so thoroughly Hibernized through generations of intermarriage that they fought with the natives.
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Feb 23, 2021 00:15
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FreudianSlippers posted:And even then during the Plantation of Ulster, when Ireland was properly colonized with the displacement of the natives and British settlers being moved in centuries later, the English expected the Old English families in Ireland to side with them but most of them had become so thoroughly Hibernized through generations of intermarriage that they fought with the natives. How much did religious affiliations play into this? Quite a bit, I would imagine.
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Feb 23, 2021 02:09
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PYF Historical Fun Fact: How much did religious affiliations play into this?
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Feb 23, 2021 02:18
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Posted it in the MilHist thread- any questions about the Korean War? My grandfather was a draftee and has an account. 
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Feb 24, 2021 05:28
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Just learned this fun fact: In 1820, the Austrian Empire decreed that poor people needed to acquire an "marriage consensus", i.e. the official permission to marry, by their municipality before going to their priest and arrange a wedding. The reasoning behind this was that poor people were more likely to produce lots of poor children who would then burden the state's welfare budget even more. This rule got abolished in 1869 for most parts of the Empire, although in some areas (namely Salzburg, Tyrol and Vorarlberg) it persisted for longer - in the latter two even well after WW1! In the end only farmhands, day labourers and beggars were covered by it and even then only if they were drawing welfare. Anyway, for a good while during the 19th century poor people were de facto not allowed to marry. There were quite a few priests who were willing to ignore this and wed couples nonetheless, but they risked punishment both from the state and the church by doing that. But there was also another option: In 19th century Rome, unmarried couples arriving in the city were forcibly wed since the ecclesiastical authorities of the time didn't want people loving in the eternal city outside of the bounds of marriage, I guess. So for several decades during the 19th century, poor couples from Austria and especially from Tyrol (probably because it was the closest, but also because the marriage consensus was handled the strictest there) would often go on a pilgrimage to Rome where they would visit churches, get indulgences and aim to get arrested and forcibly wed by the local authorities. After coming back they would risk three to six months of jail for this, but they were married after all and there was nothing Austria could do about this.
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Feb 24, 2021 10:36
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Sucrose posted:Interesting. About what year was this? Just had a little look and apparently it happened in 1394-1395, during Richard II's fist expedition to Ireland. ^^^Iceland had similar laws in the 19th century - I believe it was illegal to marry unless you had land^^^ Pookah has a new favorite as of 10:54 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 10:50
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so what did the authorities do with the hordes of bastards?
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Feb 24, 2021 11:57
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System Metternich posted:Just learned this fun fact: In 1820, the Austrian Empire decreed that poor people needed to acquire an "marriage consensus", i.e. the official permission to marry, by their municipality before going to their priest and arrange a wedding. The reasoning behind this was that poor people were more likely to produce lots of poor children who would then burden the state's welfare budget even more. This rule got abolished in 1869 for most parts of the Empire, although in some areas (namely Salzburg, Tyrol and Vorarlberg) it persisted for longer - in the latter two even well after WW1! In the end only farmhands, day labourers and beggars were covered by it and even then only if they were drawing welfare.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:24
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19th century Danish law also required the man to have a permit for marriage proving that he wasn't a filthy poor. As for bastards: In 1803, parishes were required to maintain a farm or house for the local poor, to curb vagabonding and begging. They were only required to support those born in the parish. This meant that the local parishes would often push unmarried pregnant women out of the parish and leave the child to be the responsibility of whatever other parish it was born in. This was obviously untenable, and the law was amended with the so-called "ten month rule" that meant a child was the responsibility of whatever parish the mother lived in 10 months before its birth. Of course, this only applied if it wasn't possible to get the father of the child to either marry the woman or pay her a stipend. One of my ggggrandmothers was born 1840 in parish A, but since her mother was unwed, she was legally considered born in parish B. The father had moved to Copenhagen shortly after she became pregnant and may not have been aware. She managed to get in touch with him by letter, and he acknowledged being the father and sent her some money (not much, they were both poor). After a couple of years, she became impatient and contacted the authorities. To help track him down, she gave them three of his letters. They found him, and he said he did not make much at his job, but offered to pay a small amount on a bi-annual basis. After a couple of years of this, they got married in 1845 and appear to have had a good life together.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:43
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ChubbyChecker posted:so what did the authorities do with the hordes of bastards? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Austria
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Feb 24, 2021 13:20
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In the Netherlands, priests cannot legally marry people. Only government representatives can. The reason is that when a country has separation of church and state, putting a purely legal matter in the hands of a religious leader is extremely weird. Church weddings are allowed of course, but only after the legal matters are settled. Non-religious people often do a state marriage and have their wedding party combined with that. Religious people often have the state marriage as a formal thing without ceremony, like signing for a new passport, then follow up with a church wedding the next day and do the party after the church wedding. It is extremely rare, but not completely unheard of, for certain religious offshoots to claim they feel they're not subject to the government and telling people to do a religious wedding while skipping the state formalities. The result is an "illegal" marriage or at least something that's not legally binding in any way, and the government getting rather pissed at the religious organisation doing this. But major religions generally follow the rules, it's only cults that get in trouble like this.
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Feb 24, 2021 13:21
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Carbon dioxide posted:In the Netherlands, priests cannot legally marry people. I think this setup is quite common. In Sweden one also need to apply for a permit to get married (to make sure you are not close kin, a minor or already married) and as far as I know weddings performed in Sweden are legally void unless this has been done.
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Feb 24, 2021 13:30
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Yeah, same in Germany and Austria. Until 2009 a couple of years ago priests weren't even allowed to perform a wedding if the couple hadn't entered a legal marriage beforehand, but this got changed now that nobody cares anymore about the validity of legal vs sacramental marriage. Up until 1938 though, all matters of official documentation pertaining to people's legal status (ie birth, marriage, death etc) was done by the various religious communities in Austria, so for the most part the Catholic Church. For older people their official record is therefore still maintained by the church, which can lead to unforeseen consequences like the case of a Catholic priest a couple of years ago, who had reached retirement age and was now about to clandestinely marry his affair. It was supposed to be a legal only ceremony so that the church wouldn't get wind of it, but he didn't remember that due to his age his file was still kept by the church, which meant that the state authorities automatically gave the information about his wedding over to whatever parish he was born. Since the church also documents ordinations in their records, they immediately knew that he a) was a priest and b) got married, and there was a big hubbub about it.
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Feb 24, 2021 14:23
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was reading the wiki article on light in august, and came across this gem:quote:In 1935, Maurice Coindreau translated the novel into French.[24] In the same year, it was translated into German along with several other of Faulkner's novels and short stories. These works initially met with approval from the Nazi censors and received much attention from German literary critics, because they assumed that Faulkner was a conservative agrarian positively depicting the struggle for racial purity; soon after, however, Faulkner's works were banned by the Nazis, and post-war German criticism reappraised him as an optimistic Christian humanist. Faulkner's books were not available in Germany until 1951 because US army censors also did not approve of his work. liked by nazi critics because they assumed faulkner was racist, banned when they figured out he wasn't, praised by non-nazi critics after the war, but banned by US censors (I wonder why)
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Mar 3, 2021 06:24
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So what you are saying is that unwed Austrian mothers basically explains how the Empire fell and WWI. Before 1848 there were a lot of reason why there were many single parent Austrian households but after 1869 there was really no excuse. Yet the trend continued in certain urban areas like Tyrol, Salzburg and Vorarlberg. Personal responsibility people.
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Mar 3, 2021 06:38
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Many states in the US have marriage license requirements too. The oldest reasons are to ensure you're not too closely related, and also you're not miscegenatin' because racism. At some point, many states had you take a blood test to screen for syphilis, and Montana still requires women to get a blood test for Rubella before getting a license.
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Mar 3, 2021 07:39
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canyoneer posted:Many states in the US have marriage license requirements too. The oldest reasons are to ensure you're not too closely related, and also you're not miscegenatin' because racism. MN is a short form and $20. No questions asked. Just have the minister/pastor/priest/justice of the peace/a cat sign it and it's done. Super easy. I'm pretty sure you can marry a tree in MN and they wouldn't mind. It's absurdly easy.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:15
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I mentioned it elsewhere in a different context, but after 1810, you couldn't get married in Denmark if you hadn't had the smallpox vaccine There were also antivaxxers then, but without freedom of the press, they never got a foothold. That's not to say we should limit speech, just that some things can be "easier" in an absolute monarchy
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Mar 5, 2021 21:49
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That's a cool and good take
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Mar 5, 2021 21:57
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:That's a cool and good take i am absolutely not advocating for that (hence the quotation marks), i was just trying to give context but im a little buzzed lol
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Mar 5, 2021 22:17
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Carthag Tuek posted:i am absolutely not advocating for that (hence the quotation marks), i was just trying to give context but im a little buzzed lol
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Mar 5, 2021 22:25
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You can have a free press and still sanction them for printing lies. In fact you should.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:25
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:Okay what are you drinking, because gin makes me horny and whiskey makes me unruly and I wanna know what's gonna make me monarchist-leaning 🤪 zaranoff vodka, the cheapest they had in aldi but i am also eating haribo piratos, which might explain any appearance of outmoded concepts
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Mar 5, 2021 22:30
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3D Megadoodoo posted:You can have a free press and still sanction them for printing lies. In fact you should. this is also true
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Mar 5, 2021 22:30
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Carthag Tuek posted:zaranoff vodka, the cheapest they had in aldi  Get on the taaka train and let's burn some poo poo 
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Mar 5, 2021 22:35
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hell yea text me small historical fact: the expression "calling for Ulrich" as slang for throwing up has been in the Danish language for over 300 years
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Mar 5, 2021 22:39
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:You might as well be drinking evian The vodka will be cleaner than Evian. (No seriously it's absolutely filthy compared to tapwater. Still legally potable but not something I'd pay for.)
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Mar 6, 2021 04:10
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3D Megadoodoo posted:The vodka will be cleaner than Evian. (No seriously it's absolutely filthy compared to tapwater. Still legally potable but not something I'd pay for.)
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Mar 6, 2021 05:14
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I'm familiar with the brand and I feel they need to lean in to their real demographic. "Get a handle on the workday" is much more true. Pair it with a "Half pint for the hustle" for the real Taaka drinkers.
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Mar 6, 2021 08:35
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i store zaranoff vodka in my balls
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Mar 6, 2021 10:36
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Carthag Tuek posted:i store zaranoff vodka in my balls That's a good burn when you pee.
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Mar 6, 2021 12:22
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