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Potato Salad posted:Guys, between centrism and Trump, I choose to abandon any sense of responsibility every time Obama made the Secure Communities program (which requires local law enforcement to report citizenship status to ICE) mandatory nationwide, when it was voluntary and only done in a little over a dozen counties before. ICE under Obama would frequently target school bus stops because detention centers made more for housing families than individuals. Aren't you from Atlanta? There was a series of protests under the Obama administration in Atlanta because ICE was putting high school students in solitary confinement back in 2016. What is the relation to the Joy Reid fiasco? The reason most liberals don't know how absurdly bad ICE was under Obama is because establishment mouthpieces like Joy will only bring up these gross violations of human rights when it's convenient to democrats.
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Apr 29, 2018 02:25
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See I vote for the lesser of two evils because I like to get hosed to death slower.
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Apr 29, 2018 02:38
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phasmid posted:See I vote for the lesser of two evils because I like to get hosed to death slower. But forums poster Potato Salad assured me when  told Wall Street to "cut it out," she meant it.
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Apr 29, 2018 20:43
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Eight posts is pretty weak
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Apr 30, 2018 12:20
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phasmid posted:See I vote for the lesser of two evils because I like to get hosed to death slower. I'm glad you wish people were hosed to death faster, this is actually what an ally looks like
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Apr 30, 2018 12:21
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pine tree you have no idea what vulnerable communities in Atlanta actually ask people to do, do you you throw around Obama's betrayal like it is the last word in local politics go back to the internet Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 12:28
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What do they ask?
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Apr 30, 2018 13:25
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ahh yes the "you have no idea what people are really saying! also i won't tell you." classy and not at all a sign of pathetic liberal rage, just like posting three times in a row
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Apr 30, 2018 14:34
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Is this a variant on 'It's not my job to educate you'?
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Apr 30, 2018 14:41
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Potato Salad posted:I'm glad you wish people were hosed to death faster, this is actually what an ally looks like Actually I wish people weren't hosed to death at all, and that's why I won't support either party
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Apr 30, 2018 15:35
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I think it's like when they say "shut up about DACA, all you do is criticize Obama and the Democrats, why don't you listen to what immigrants are saying" and just assume immigrant advocates agree with them instead of the reality of immigrant advocates being the most vocal critics of Obama's deportation regime around.
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Apr 30, 2018 15:36
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It's really just yet another facet of the earnest liberal belief that minorities are happy to be props to make them look good.
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Apr 30, 2018 15:58
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VitalSigns posted:I think it's like when they say "shut up about DACA, all you do is criticize Obama and the Democrats, why don't you listen to what immigrants are saying" and just assume immigrant advocates agree with them instead of the reality of immigrant advocates being the most vocal critics of Obama's deportation regime around. I remember then getting REALLY mad when that congressman was pointing out that Pelosi and Schumer were setting the Dreamers up to be hosed back in 2017 and he ended up being 100% correct. It's also incredibly cynical since they are explicitly holding these people as hostages like Pelosi stated when she started talking about starving children when rigging that primary was made public. "Vote for us or the Republicans will do bad things to people" and then when elected they keep the status quo intact so those people can be leveraged again next election. Like yeah the Republicans WILL be worse but at a certain point "less evil" is still evil and there needs to be some way to hold the supposed good guys accountable so they don't just get to keep playing the Good Cop to the Republicans Bad cop. That's supposed to be the primary but the "less evil" side has been making sure that isn't actually a choice it seems. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 16:02
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's really just yet another facet of the earnest liberal belief that minorities are happy to be props to make them look good. The democratic attitude is basically, "What are you gonna do, vote republican?  "
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Apr 30, 2018 16:08
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Mister Fister posted:The democratic attitude is basically, "What are you gonna do, vote republican? The reality is "probably not but we'll just lose interest in voting and stay home" which isn't as bad but still results in many lost elections. These sorts of people can only think in binary where everyone is either a Republican or Democratic voter and never seem to factor in a loss of faith in either party to represent their interests. Even more dangerous are the idiots like Schumer that think that pithy statement doesn't apply to Republicans and someday they will totally cross party lines in huge numbers.
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Apr 30, 2018 16:11
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Potato Salad posted:pine tree you have no idea what vulnerable communities in Atlanta actually ask people to do, do you I guarantee that I have significant more contact with immigrant communities throughout the south than you do, including Atlanta. Go check what Not One More Deportation Georgia or Ice Out Fulton were saying during the Obama years, only to be completely ignored.
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Apr 30, 2018 17:36
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it's sad that centrists can't even defend the idea of lesser evil strategic voting anymore without dragging up minority props that they excuse getting constantly hosed over by the dems or trying to paint the other side of the conversation as republican supporters. guess that's just an indication of how intellectually bankrupt the concept of the lesser evil has become since it was revealed the dems are actually self-serving oligarchs
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Apr 30, 2018 17:45
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The point of lesser evilism has always been "we aren't going to do much but we will be less bad" which callously shifts the burden onto the voters. Voters are evil or bad because they don't want to protect such and such a group when they stay home or vote third party. It removes all of the agency from the politicians themselves. So guys like Manchin are allowed to be terrible since "well he's the best that can get elected in West Virginia and he HAS to vote that way" and their honor is defended but if someone doesn't vote for him because he's trash well THAT person who has almost no power is the real issue here. It's absolutely calculated and disgusting. It also doesn't work until the greater evil gets REALLY bad. Voting for the lesser evil absolutely makes sense in situations where something bad has slipped through the cracks or the "good guys" made a mistake or something. However this should be a rare occasion and very significant. When a party has made it their defining feature that they aren't actually very good and can't do much to help you but hey THOSE guys over there are certainly worse they are bound to eventually lose, sometimes to a hilarious joke. This is from someone that DID vote lesser evil last time and look how well that plan worked out. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 18:01
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Don't get me wrong, none of these groups I've worked with (and I also work as a part of a group that mentors a bunch of undocumented immigrants, both DACA and non-DACA) think that Obama or the democrats are equally as bad as Trump. They all think that Trump is uniquely racist and bigoted. But for the most part their opinions of democrats range from "spineless" to "opportunists." Let me put it this way: in Durham or Mecklenburg NC or the south side of Gainesville, GA, parents were refusing to sign school permits or answer doors long before January 2017. Edit: And to make this more explicit - the reason I mentioned Georgia specifically here is because Irwin County Detention Center has long been among the top 10 worst ICE facilities and well known for practices like throwing high school aged detainees in solitary confinement for the horrible offense of helping non-English speakers read documents. A large part of my frustration and one of the reasons I went from full throated Hillary support in 2016 to "gently caress the democrats" now is that I've seen dozens and dozens of cases of immigrant abuse by ICE suddenly being discussed by democrats, MSNBC, etc. and there is almost never a realization that the cases they are upset about started under Obama, which leads me to be pretty certain that if a centrist wins in 2020 we will go back to ignoring that crap as democrats entrench ICE just a little bit more as a set up for an even worse Republican to come later. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 18:33
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The centrist belief is that minorities' natural station in life is to be discriminated against, deported, mass incarcerated, used as slaves, treated without regard to human rights, etc and therefore minorities owe them endless gratitude and undying support whenever centrists magnanimously do those things only 90% as much as Republicans (or when they do it 150% as much as Republicans because the centrists say nicer things about minorities while doing it which again is more than they think minorities deserve anyway).
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Apr 30, 2018 18:33
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VitalSigns posted:The centrist belief is that minorities' natural station in life is to be discriminated against, deported, mass incarcerated, used as slaves, treated without regard to human rights, etc and therefore minorities owe them endless gratitude and undying support whenever centrists magnanimously do those things only 90% as much as Republicans (or when they do it 150% as much as Republicans because the centrists say nicer things about minorities while doing it which again is more than they think minorities deserve anyway). Yet another reminder that "sanctuary cities" are only relevant now as a matter of public policy because in the middle of Obama's 1st term he made the Secure Communities program mandatory across the entire US. Before that, a city could simply choose not to enter an agreement to cooperate with ICE.
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Apr 30, 2018 18:44
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Actually I wish people weren't hosed to death at all, and that's why I won't support either party By doing nothing, I am the bestest ally
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Apr 30, 2018 18:47
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Jaxyon posted:By doing nothing, I am the bestest ally Yes, it's a single voter's fault the Democrats supported loving everyone to death
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Apr 30, 2018 19:32
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Look it makes much more sense for thousands of voters to suddenly understand and practice game theory than it does for individual politicians to not be self interested poo poo burgers.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:37
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Oh we're doing this one then? OKa.p. dent posted:Yes, it's a single voter's fault the Democrats supported loving everyone to death Being silent is the best way to send a message.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:45
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Jaxyon posted:Oh we're doing this one then? OK I'm not sure "not voting for the Democrat" is identical to "being silent"
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Apr 30, 2018 19:49
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Radish posted:Look it makes much more sense for thousands of voters to suddenly understand and practice game theory than it does for individual politicians to not be self interested poo poo burgers. This is the thing that gets to me; the people complaining about others not voting basically have the very definition of "a political view/approach with no intent other than making the person feeling morally superior." There is zero chance that such arguments are going to have any impact on the trend of people choosing not to vote. The only thing that will do that is actual material change to peoples' circumstances. So it actually makes more sense to try to change the Democrats if your goal is to increase voting. Jaxyon posted:Being silent is the best way to send a message. Voting isn't the only way to be politically active. As I've said earlier in this thread, I personally still think it's optimal to vote for the Democrat in the general election, but I definitely think it's pointless to get upset with others for not making that choice.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:49
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If the point if improving people's lives, volunteering in progressive organizations, mutual aid organizations, non-electoral political organizing or for campaigns of candidates trying to push democrats to the left are infinitely better than voting, donating, or campaigning for centrist democrats.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:51
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People replying to my post with nuanced responses to a non-nuanced reply are missing the point, in that I was giving a dumb reply to a dumb reply.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:53
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Radish posted:The point of lesser evilism has always been "we aren't going to do much but we will be less bad" which callously shifts the burden onto the voters. Voters are evil or bad because they don't want to protect such and such a group when they stay home or vote third party. It removes all of the agency from the politicians themselves. This is all that needs to be said. Blaming voters makes zero sense and will change nothing, but you get to feel superior, so wheeeeeeeeeeeee Democrats need to learn about behavioral training methods. Positive reinforcement is the best way to get the results you want, not scolding people for doing the wrong thing. An example from Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot The Dog!": "Suppose you want someone to telephone you--your offspring, your parent, your lover. If he or she doesn't call, there isn't much you can do about it. A major point in training with reinforcement is that you can't reinforce behavior that is not occurring. (snip) Of course, if you apply negative reinforcement--'Why haven't you called, why do I have to call you, you never call me,' and so on, remarks likely to annoy--you are setting up a situation in which the caller avoids such annoyance by not calling you; in fact, you are training them not to call."
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Apr 30, 2018 19:57
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Ytlaya posted:This is the thing that gets to me; the people complaining about others not voting basically have the very definition of "a political view/approach with no intent other than making the person feeling morally superior." There is zero chance that such arguments are going to have any impact on the trend of people choosing not to vote. The only thing that will do that is actual material change to peoples' circumstances. So it actually makes more sense to try to change the Democrats if your goal is to increase voting. Yeah people have been yelling about this since before some people able to vote in the next election had even been born (Nader  ) and it's never resulted in wins. People in this forum were crying about Nader voters in 2016 which is absurd.Even if you are right that people five elections ago gave us Bush, complaining about them and saying they are the real problem isn't going to get them around to your way of thinking, even if you could connect with enough to statistically flip an election. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 20:03
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This is a thread about voting strategy. Talking to people, in this thread, about their voting strategy is one thing. How the Dems address voter apathy and 3rd party support is election strategy, that's a different thing.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:03
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Jaxyon posted:Oh we're doing this one then? OK You do you know the democrats voted to give hundreds of millions to Trump and the military right And can you please stop pretending the democrats have given a poo poo about poverty in the last 40 years It's embarrassing
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Apr 30, 2018 20:07
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viral spiral posted:You do you know the democrats voted to give hundreds of millions to Trump and the military right Man it's amazing you managed to extrapolate my entire belief system from one sentence posts and that definitely is not at all you trying to make me into a strawman.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:09
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Ytlaya posted:Voting isn't the only way to be politically active. As I've said earlier in this thread, I personally still think it's optimal to vote for the Democrat in the general election, but I definitely think it's pointless to get upset with others for not making that choice. lol it definitely isn't
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Apr 30, 2018 20:11
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Jaxyon posted:Man it's amazing you managed to extrapolate my entire belief system from one sentence posts and that definitely is not at all you trying to make me into a strawman. well gee sir this is the first time i've seen you post Am I supposed to know who you are
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Apr 30, 2018 20:16
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viral spiral posted:well gee sir this is the first time i've seen you post I dunno you were just telling me what I was pretending or whatever,  Is this the "I'll try to take a stand in posts but act like I was just shitposting when called out on it" or what
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Apr 30, 2018 20:21
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Jaxyon posted:I dunno you were just telling me what I was pretending or whatever, Jaxyon posted:People replying to my post with nuanced responses to a non-nuanced reply are missing the point, in that I was giving a dumb reply to a dumb reply. gently caress off already.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:22
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botany posted:lol it definitely isn't Actually it is, because you can't Jedi mind-meld the 4 million extra people who showed up in 2008 but lost faith over the years into voting again by getting really really mad on the Internet and browbeating a handful of people on message boards. Even if it works on that handful, and it won't, their votes are meaningless and the millions of other people are completely out of your control. However, party bigwigs can definitely win those people back by offering an actually good platform which is 100% within their control, and would therefore be much more effective than whining about people not showing up for a lovely one.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:47
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VitalSigns posted:Actually it is, because you can't Jedi mind-meld the 4 million extra people who showed up in 2008 but lost faith over the years into voting again by getting really really mad on the Internet and browbeating a handful of people on message boards. Even if it works on that handful, and it won't, their votes are meaningless and the millions of other people are completely out of your control. Again, your confusing a discussion of voting strategy on a message board with election strategy of the party. If you're going to talk to individual people, you're talking voting strategy. If you're talking about how to get groups of people to vote, that's election strategy. If someone comes on here and is like "gently caress voting nothing matters" arguing with them certainly has a point. If you have a large problem with voter apathy, that's absolutely on the Dems to fix if they want to win elections.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:54
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