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Moridin920 posted:Stop trying to tell me Donald Trump and the GOP are just bleeding their hearts out over the plight of Venezuelan people when they don't even give a poo poo about their own federal employees. When I find a poster who posts anything like that, I'll pass the message along. Kind of a bizarre non-sequitur in the context of this thread, though.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:59
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Norton the First posted:When I find a poster who posts anything like that, I'll pass the message along. Kind of a bizarre non-sequitur in the context of this thread, though. That's the implication behind "but look at what is happening, we have a moral duty to help." Who do you think is in charge of the "help" that will be sent? We can't even "help" Puerto Rico without grifting the poo poo out of them.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:00
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Moridin920 posted:If the USA cared so much it'd stop selling arms to the Saudis but it won't. It's an evil empire. Stop trying to tell me Donald Trump and the GOP are just bleeding their hearts out over the plight of Venezuelan people when they don't even give a poo poo about their own federal employees. They don't give a gently caress about those people as evidenced by the fact that they helped engineer this economic crisis to begin with and are now licking their lips over "debt restructuring." Treasury just doesn't want anyone to come bitching to them when it turns out a bunch of US investors bought debt secured by collateral Maduro's already promised separately to the Chinese, Russians, and Turks.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:00
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Moridin920 posted:If the USA cared so much it'd stop selling arms to the Saudis but it won't. It's an evil empire. Stop trying to tell me Donald Trump and the GOP are just bleeding their hearts out over the plight of Venezuelan people when they don't even give a poo poo about their own federal employees. They don't give a gently caress about those people as evidenced by the fact that they helped engineer this economic crisis to begin with and are now licking their lips over "debt restructuring." I don’t claim to speak for other people, but you can claim sympathy for the Venezuelan people without also believing that Donald Trump or the US government is motivated by genuine sympathy toward the Venezuelan people. You also don’t need to be in favor of military intervention just because you don’t like Maduro.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:01
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Democrazy posted:I don’t claim to speak for other people, but you can claim sympathy for the Venezuelan people without also believing that Donald Trump or the US government is motivated by genuine sympathy toward the Venezuelan people. I feel sympathy and Maduro sucks assholes and PSUV has mismanaged everything horribly. It's just not the USA's business beyond stopping their policy of pouring salt in the wounds.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:02
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Feinne posted:Treasury just doesn't want anyone to come bitching to them when it turns out a bunch of US investors bought debt secured by collateral Maduro's already promised separately to the Chinese, Russians, and Turks. Which is really prudent. Wasn't there a single vulture fund that managed to be a thorn in the side of US-Argentina relations for years? If we can't manage to get banks to back down after the fact, it's best that we don't let them take the plunge to start with.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:05
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I'll tell my mom to keep living on lentils, cheese and as much money as I can send her through shady channels because the USA is bad. https://twitter.com/Lucysbabygirl/status/929903722326568961 You think the USA is gonna give your mom better food than what we give our own territories? IDK seems to me like we should just stop trying to put Venezuela into default and "make the economy scream." If the USA "intervenes" there will likely be unexploded munitions killing children in your mom's neighborhood for years.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:06
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I'd like to chime in that most of the broad sanctions happened only in the last year or so, not enough time to completely tank the economy. The Obama era policy was to issue sanctions against individuals rather than countries precisely because of what happened with the Iraq sanctions. The logic was that collective punishment in the hope of rebellion/internal pressure was ineffective, immoral, and encouraged corruption of Western companies still interested in doing business. Individual sanctions, it was theorised, would put pressure on the ruling kleptocractic class to at least have to live in the country they stole from, rather than the typical post-modern dictator route of living a bit in your country but mainly shipping your relatives off to Europe or America and then visiting them as often as possible. Of course, the Trump administration doesn't give a poo poo about those considerations. The argument that sanctions are the reason for Venezuelan's financial crisis is bunk. The 2018 sanctions might have exacerbated the crisis but the underlying causes were not the pre-Trump sanctions against the individuals in the Venezuelan government.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:09
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Norton the First posted:Which is really prudent. Wasn't there a single vulture fund that managed to be a thorn in the side of US-Argentina relations for years? If we can't manage to get banks to back down after the fact, it's best that we don't let them take the plunge to start with. I wouldnt call the IMF a vulture fund per se, just a unholy bloody country shredder.  Which, btw, is gonna be what will eventually happen.its way better than starving and getting shot by the secret police but man, its gonna be a nightmare either way.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:12
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Moridin920 posted:https://twitter.com/Lucysbabygirl/status/929903722326568961 Honestly, those are much better than what my family have managed to afford these last two weeks...
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Jan 25, 2019 22:12
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:I wouldnt call the IMF a vulture fund per se, just a unholy bloody country shredder. Yeah, that is the other reason to block VZ debt. Who ever takes over after this is already going to inherit a massive clusterfuck. They don't need to deal with a few billion in debt issued at last second for Dictator Golden Parachute on top of it.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:14
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AstraSage posted:Honestly, those are much better than what my family have managed to afford these last two weeks... Yeah, that looks like a feast compared to how bad the food situation is.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:14
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Cool well we should use our ultra stealth planes to drop food packages all over the country.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:15
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Moridin920 posted:I feel sympathy and Maduro sucks assholes and PSUV has mismanaged everything horribly. It's just not the USA's business beyond stopping their policy of pouring salt in the wounds. It seems you’re just setting up a straw man who supports military invention in Venezuela. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone in this thread does, or is too sympathetic to Trump on his motives in Venezuela. Honestly, it seems like most of the fighting on the left about Venezuela for the past few days has essentially been over nothing, since no one aside from hardcore tankies will actually defend Maduro, and no one will defend Trump’s actions either. Like, at best, we’re arguing about sanctions as a way of finding some point of contention, but Venezuela’s economy is hosed for way more reasons than the sanctions. I’m not a huge fan of economic sanctions as a policy, but given our agreement on how badly Maduro has managed Venezuela, it feels beside the point.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:16
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Moridin920 posted:If the USA cared so much it'd stop selling arms to the Saudis but it won't. It's an evil empire. Stop trying to tell me Donald Trump and the GOP are just bleeding their hearts out over the plight of Venezuelan people when they don't even give a poo poo about their own federal employees. They don't give a gently caress about those people as evidenced by the fact that they helped engineer this economic crisis to begin with and are now licking their lips over "debt restructuring." How about you stay in the CSPAM thread instead of shitposting incessantly in both forums threads?
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Jan 25, 2019 22:17
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Volkerball posted:How about you stay in the CSPAM thread instead of shitposting incessantly in both forums threads? I figured I'd see why people get so buttmad about the other subforum and I feel like there's no real reason for it. Regardless, why don't you answer on the merits of the argument? What exactly do you want the USA to do and what outcome do you think that will entail? Do you think we should remove Maduro by force and potentially start a civil war? Maybe this time we'll fund the right faction.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:18
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:I wouldnt call the IMF a vulture fund per se, just a unholy bloody country shredder. I mean end of the day it's not like getting rid of Maduro magically fixes things. It's definitely a major step to even being able to start fixing them, though, since he's a bad mix of evil and incompetence.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:20
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Feinne posted:I mean end of the day it's not like getting rid of Maduro magically fixes things. It's definitely a major step to even being able to start fixing them, though, since he's a bad mix of evil and incompetence. Yeah unless we start Syria II: This Time In A Jungle and then the insane racists in the USA start clamoring about how we need to start machine gunning refugees at the border in an insane stroke of evil.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:22
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Moridin920 posted:Cool well we should use our ultra stealth planes to drop food packages all over the country. iirc there are some very depressing reasons this isn't done.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:22
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Der Waffle Mous posted:iirc there are some very depressing reasons this isn't done. Probably, otherwise it'd be happening. Meanwhile we have food rotting in the USA because there is no market for it ('cuz tariffs).
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Jan 25, 2019 22:23
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It must be so convenient when "non-intervention" (whatever that means for a country that already has every major American oil corporation deeply embedded in it) is the one where a group of well armed kleptocrats will keep selling the US looted oil for increasingly lower prices and therefore directly benefit leftist Americans with lower gas prices. I love how "non-intervention" looks exactly like intervention and colonialism/imperialism because, hey, unarmed Venezuelans should be ready to martyr themselves for their cause if they love freedom so much! I can't help it if this "non-intervention" benefits me personally, I'm just an innocent, uninterested bystander! e: if the concern of the left is the optics of this, the optics 20 years down the line of "US conglomerates continued to accept stolen venezuelan oil for there own benefit in the name of "non-intervention"" are going to look horrible and go down as yet another episode of American interventionist policies in Latin America, FYI. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 22:24
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elgatofilo posted:It must be so convenient when "non-intervention" (whatever that means for a country that already has every major American oil corporation deeply embedded in it) is the one where a group of well armed kleptocrats will keep selling the US looted oil for increasingly lower prices and therefore directly benefit leftist Americans with lower gas prices. I love how "non-intervention" looks exactly like intervention and colonialism/imperialism because, hey, unarmed Venezuelans should be ready to martyr themselves for their cause if they love freedom so much! I can't help it if this "non-intervention" benefits me personally, I'm just an innocent, uninterested bystander! Yeah dude you're right the USA should invade instead with shock and awe doctrine and an occupying force because at the end of the day what difference does it make anyway  We're already in a few forever wars what's another one in South America. The CIA wants it to happen so just resign yourself and face the capital. They already own everything anyway. Maybe Brazil can get some, too. e: Like I really don't get what you think will happen. You're not gonna get weapons contracts for your companies lol Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 22:27
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah unless we start Syria II: This Time In A Jungle and then the insane racists in the USA start clamoring about how we need to start machine gunning refugees at the border in an insane stroke of evil. Yeah that is one way to actually make things worse and in a saner set of times would be so far down the 'worst case scenarios' as to not be worth considering.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:27
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Moridin920 posted:What exactly do you want the USA to do and what outcome do you think that will entail? Do you think we should remove Maduro by force and potentially start a civil war? Maybe this time we'll fund the right faction. Volkerball has never met a US military intervention he didn't like
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Jan 25, 2019 22:30
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah dude you're right the USA should invade instead with shock and awe doctrine and an occupying force because at the end of the day what difference does it make anyway You seem to be advocating for continued US material support of the regime. A "non-interventionist" policy would be for the US to pull all its interests out of Venezuela immediately and stop trading in stolen goods until Venezuelans can resolve the issue internally. Venezuelans cannot resolve the issue internally while American conglomerates continue to provide the regime with material support. But again, "non'intervention" in 2019 is apparently "let's keep eating up Venezuela's stolen oil, I need my gas to be under 3$!"
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Jan 25, 2019 22:31
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https://twitter.com/RobbieGramer/status/1088910786485989379quote:Abrams clashed regularly with church groups and human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch.[9] According to the Washington Post article, in a 1984 appearance on the program Nightline, Abrams clashed with Aryeh Neier,[10] the Executive Director of Human Rights Watch[11] and with the leader of Amnesty International, over the Reagan administration's foreign policies. They accused him of covering up atrocities committed by the military forces of U.S.-backed governments, such as those in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and the rebel Contras in Nicaragua. Yeah I'm filled with hope over here lmfao quote:In early 1982, when reports of the El Mozote massacre of hundreds of civilians by the military in El Salvador began appearing in U.S. media, Abrams told a Senate committee that the reports of hundreds of deaths at El Mozote "were not credible," and that "it appears to be an incident that is at least being significantly misused, at the very best, by the guerrillas."[12] The massacre had come at a time when the Reagan administration was attempting to bolster the human rights image of the Salvadoran military. Abrams implied that reports of a massacre were simply FMLN propaganda and denounced U.S. investigative reports of the massacre as misleading. In March 1993, the Salvadoran Truth Commission reported that over 500 civilians were "deliberately and systematically" executed in El Mozote in December 1981 by forces affiliated with the Salvadoran government.[13] gonna free the poo poo outta you
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Jan 25, 2019 22:31
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https://twitter.com/DavidKlion/status/1088911253907664898 Sounds like some great stuff is coming down the pipeline!
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Jan 25, 2019 22:32
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Venezuelans should remove Maduro by force,preferably via shooting him into the sun.then follow suit with the rest of his goverment,handle the reins over to the pcdc and join cuba.then expel the neoliberals that complain,not to the sun, just outer space.then finaly, shooting the pcdc into LEO, as a warning for future generations. This plan would require them to develop a space program,which I'm told is a excellent public expenditure program to help revitalise your economy.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:32
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Chomskyan posted:Volkerball has never met a US military intervention he didn't like It’s a serious and mature way of approaching geopolitics. It’s extremely important to be one of the adults in the room and demand that the US always Do something regardless of the outcome always being ludicrously awful.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:32
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The most dramatic US-related outcome I see as plausible is the Trump administration trying something very stupid and giving Maduro an excuse to start executing opposition leaders en masse. On that note: https://twitter.com/RobbieGramer/status/1088910786485989379
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Jan 25, 2019 22:33
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elgatofilo posted:You seem to be advocating for continued US material support of the regime. A "non-interventionist" policy would be for the US to pull all its interests out of Venezuela immediately and stop trading in stolen goods until Venezuelans can resolve the issue internally. Venezuelans cannot resolve the issue internally while American conglomerates continue to provide the regime with material support. Let me be clear, death to America.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:34
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Fallen Hamprince posted:The most dramatic US-related outcome I see as plausible is the Trump administration trying something very stupid and giving Maduro an excuse to start executing opposition leaders en masse. The Trump administration trying something very stupid is something I would bet all my money on.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:35
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The responses in here leave no question how countries during the Cold War were able to kill millions.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:36
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Venezuelans should remove Maduro by force,preferably via shooting him into the sun.then follow suit with the rest of his goverment,handle the reins over to the pcdc and join cuba.then expel the neoliberals that complain,not to the sun, just outer space.then finaly, shooting the pcdc into LEO, as a warning for future generations. I mean you can just simplify it as 'shoot all the neoliberals into the sun', because in spite of calling themselves socialists the PSUV are currently pretty indistinguishable from the grossest corporate bootlickers. They've just cut out the middlemen and are both the government assisting in the looting of the country and the rich fuckers doing the looting.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:37
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punk rebel ecks posted:The responses in here leave no question how countries during the Cold War were able to kill millions. You mean like the US did in Latin America?
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Jan 25, 2019 22:38
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Chomskyan posted:You mean like the US did in Latin America? Maybe he’s referring to Vietnam.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:38
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Or Korea, maybe. Cambodia? Gulf Wars I and II aren't really in that time frame I suppose.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:41
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Operation Condor posted:Planned by 
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Jan 25, 2019 22:42
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Moridin920 posted:I figured I'd see why people get so buttmad about the other subforum and I feel like there's no real reason for it. Because it's loving stupid. The Saudi's have been getting their asses kicked in the US political sphere for the last several years, and their relationship is only getting worse. Even the most establishment Republicans like Rubio are openly calling them out on the Senate floor. Gas lines and massive national emergencies related to oil shortages are a thing of the past. The US exports more oil than it imports. It's not the 80's anymore. In 20 years, if not 10, KSA will be a pariah state, and lefties will have to adapt to hyping up the kingdoms anti-imperialist cred and theorizing about regime change attempts against it. I'm not here to street preach, I'm not an expert on this subject. But it doesn't help that everyone who follows Venezuela seriously on a daily basis, to include our resident Venezuelans, get run off by a bunch of idiots who's perspectives are entirely written by how they feel, not by what they've researched, since said idiots seem to think that the borders of the entire forum for shitposting are too restrictive.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:43
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Der Waffle Mous posted:iirc there are some very depressing reasons this isn't done. https://www.businessinsider.com/b2-bomber-operating-cost-libya-air-strike-2017-1 it costs $130k/hr to operate a b2. venezuela is about 6 hours away from missouri by air, so the mission would cost 1.5 million a flight (ignoring in-air refueling costs) so shipping costs would be at a bare minimum $39/pound of food, almost certainly more as some of that weight will be packaging/parachutes and refueling. just negotiate for food shipping instead.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:44
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