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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Oh, I'm absolutely not planning to stay where I am. It's just hard to muster the energy to do a job hunt right now, and I'm worried that wherever I end up I'll still be burnt out. User posted:Sounds like you're credited as senior, but doing staff level work and being told you need to work harder to meet the bar for senior. Polish up your resume and look for greener pastures. Or keep doing what you're doing if the intangibles are appealing.
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May 29, 2019 06:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is basically what I wanted, except my company doesn't have an "exceeds expectations" rating, just a gigantic bucket of "performing at L" that's basically the same as "exceeds expectations"
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May 29, 2019 10:41
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b0lt posted:that's basically the same as "exceeds expectations" You may be right in practice at least in your org; I've definitely heard of perf rating inflation where "consistently meets expectations" is viewed as a failing grade, and "exceeds expectations" is the minimum bar for a competent employee. However, the official definitions are that CME is "doing everything expected of your job role, but not more", SE is "doing everything expected of L+1", and EE is somewhere in the middle. My company basically lumped CME and EE into a single bucket (again, talking about the official definitions), and then invented a new bucket between CME and NI for people who don't deserve a Personal Improvement Plan but aren't managing everything they're supposed to either. So basically they yanked resolution away from the middle of the pack to get more resolution at the edges, which I maintain is a dumb idea. Rocko Bonaparte posted:You know, I think I had something of an epiphany about this kind of thing. If you're trying to get promoted into a new role, it's not that you have to show you can do the N+1 responsibilities, you have show you can do the N+1 responsibilities completely while also doing all the N-level responsibilities. It's just easier to walk into an N+1 job from nothing in that regards. It is absolutely easier to get hired into L+1 than it is to get promoted to L+1, especially when you're gunning for the higher levels where you not only need the skills but also need an opportunity to display those skills. Hiring processes don't provide anywhere near as much information about candidates as you have when considering promotions, but more importantly IMO the hiring committee is already calibrated to consider the candidate through the lens of L+1 instead of L. With an existing employee it's far easier to think of them as continuing their current job than it is to think of them as doing a different job. Not to mention of course that there's little business incentive to promote so long as you can get them to keep working at their current level and salary. User posted:Sounds like you're credited as senior, but doing staff level work and being told you need to work harder to meet the bar for senior. Polish up your resume and look for greener pastures. Or keep doing what you're doing if the intangibles are appealing. Yeah, I know about the decreased coding time at higher levels. I'm not the kind of dev that has to be programming every day to feel like they've accomplished something; I like doing design and mentoring work.. But it did get pretty grim at points last cycle when I'd go over a week without doing any code, and when I did have time to code I could only do trivial stuff because I knew my focus would be broken in a couple of hours. Better time management would have helped, but it's difficult to manage your time effectively when people are constantly asking for you to review their changes ASAP so they can get into the next release build. The #1 thing I'll be looking for at any new job is an adequate support structure, meaning a manager that has a reasonable amount of headcount and not too many non-people-managing duties.
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May 29, 2019 14:44
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I don’t have any brilliant advice to share, but good on you for recognizing it and realizing you need to make a change of some kind.
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May 29, 2019 14:47
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TMA, your situation kind of sounds to me like whatever amount of time a day you're working is enough to complete what you need to do but not enough to wow your superiors. Like they want you working 12 hour days where 8 are for doing L duties and 4 are for doing L+1 and or extra projects to wow directors or whatever. I wonder what kind of nightmarish hours people who got good performance reviews at your level are putting in.
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May 29, 2019 15:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Better time management would have helped, but it's difficult to manage your time effectively when people are constantly asking for you to review their changes ASAP so they can get into the next release build. The #1 thing I'll be looking for at any new job is an adequate support structure, meaning a manager that has a reasonable amount of headcount and not too many non-people-managing duties.
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May 29, 2019 16:02
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Do they value people being approvers like that or are you being treated like some roadblock? Can you just get out of that position if it is not considered part of your work? Nobody doubts its importance, but I'm just this side of literally irreplaceable because there's very few people in the org that have the official power to do what I'm doing, especially in Python. That said, importance isn't the same thing as value -- like I said earlier, being a linchpin doesn't get you recognition, let alone promotion. Indeed, my initial complaint at perf season was "I did a lot of work that had outsized complexity and impact for my role, and that only I could do; in what world do I get feedback saying "you need to do more coding"?" This world, apparently. And my teammates in this world are going to have to figure out how to do without me sooner or later, because I'm aiming to make this be not my problem any more.
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May 29, 2019 16:09
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my 0.02 is that all of the ex-alphabet folks i work with are significantly happier to not be working there any more.
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May 29, 2019 16:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Nobody doubts its importance, but I'm just this side of literally irreplaceable because there's very few people in the org that have the official power to do what I'm doing, especially in Python. That said, importance isn't the same thing as value -- like I said earlier, being a linchpin doesn't get you recognition, let alone promotion. Indeed, my initial complaint at perf season was "I did a lot of work that had outsized complexity and impact for my role, and that only I could do; in what world do I get feedback saying "you need to do more coding"?" It sounds like your new management (probably as a result of being thrust into a position of doing perf reviews for a team they didn't know) defaulted to using lovely metrics like "amount of code produced" as opposed to harder-to-measure things like "friction reduced", "amount newbies brought up to speed", and "facilitating important glue work".
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May 29, 2019 16:57
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vonnegutt posted:It sounds like your new management (probably as a result of being thrust into a position of doing perf reviews for a team they didn't know) defaulted to using lovely metrics like "amount of code produced" as opposed to harder-to-measure things like "friction reduced", "amount newbies brought up to speed", and "facilitating important glue work". aka your management half-assed it.
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May 29, 2019 17:55
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So many TooMuchAbstraction posted:This world, apparently. And my teammates in this world are going to have to figure out how to do without me sooner or later, because I'm aiming to make this be not my problem any more. uncurable mlady posted:my 0.02 is that all of the ex-alphabet folks i work with are significantly happier to not be working there any more. You know, I hope this forum helped as an outlet to one of the most frustrating things of working for a boss. Come over to BFC's corporate thread to learn more on how you are right in moving on.
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May 30, 2019 09:12
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prisoner of waffles posted:aka your management half-assed it. A company where workers have little way to be taken seriously by their managers is a meat grinder that is not growing through care but through sheer luck and traditional top-down Taylorist principles. If you have no way to tell management that they aren’t also “exceeding expectations” and be taken seriously, they’re about the same as every other soulless company no matter how much free food, compensation, or fun extracurricular BS is present.
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May 30, 2019 12:35
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uncurable mlady posted:my 0.02 is that all of the ex-alphabet folks i work with are significantly happier to not be working there any more.
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May 30, 2019 18:33
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Can you expand on that? What's going on with Google?
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May 30, 2019 19:42
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lifg posted:Can you expand on that? What's going on with Google? Google is continuing its metamorphosis to ‘past its prime, giant, at least benignly evil, overly bureaucratic corporation’. I have no actual inside information here.
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May 31, 2019 01:04
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cliffy posted:Google is continuing its metamorphosis to ‘past its prime, giant, at least benignly evil, overly bureaucratic corporation’. Not empty quoting. Which reminds me that I really need to get off Gmail.
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May 31, 2019 02:42
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Not sure exactly where to ask so maybe people who've been around for a while might know. I'm interested in writing a technical book on something, but I'm not sure what tools to start out with to do it. I'm not keen on using LaTeX unless I really have to. Obviously there's all that writing an outline and non-technical stuff to do to actually write it but I'm not struggling with that (yet?).
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Jun 2, 2019 01:30
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Take a look at this for a perspective on writing books in markdown.
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Jun 2, 2019 01:47
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Not sure exactly where to ask so maybe people who've been around for a while might know. I'm interested in writing a technical book on something, but I'm not sure what tools to start out with to do it. I'm not keen on using LaTeX unless I really have to.
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Jun 2, 2019 13:38
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I have the final onsite round tomorrow for a position that I'm very excited to take if they offer me. The recruiter has been terrific and I've known about this company for a while and have always thought it would be cool to work there. The major hurdle was a take home assignment that I apparently completed in a way that excited the team that is interviewing me. The recruiter said that my submission actually matched what they were hoping to see, apparently they haven't been having much success with their candidates thus far. I was told that there isn't a white boarding or ds/a round, just a few different rounds with the engineering staff to meet and discuss my project and to go over high level topics like system design and architecture, as well as what I assume is a behavioral round with the hiring manager. I have a couple of other offers that I'm sitting on that expire end of week, which I told the recruiter about, so we already negotiated over salary and he said he'll have an offer ready on Tuesday if the determination is to go forward with me. I've been interviewing for the past 7 weeks with a few places in the area and have received 4 offers, 2 of them lowball wastes of time. The other 2 are good and I negotiated good rates but I'm not excited to work at either place. I've been pretty even keel throughout this job hunting process but this upcoming interview tomorrow has me re-experiencing some sensations from early in my career like anxiety/excitement, racing thoughts, trouble sleeping, etc. I'm trying to jot down relevant STAR answers to various tech behavioral questions to get my thought process and bullet points for my stories together, but I feel like I'm just too scattered and too drat excited. Anyone else experience something like this? I think this will be a slam dunk tomorrow and am super excited to leave my current toxic workplace, and have been prepared for tech interview portions, but I may be overconfident. My main gap is probably behavioral stuff that the hiring manager may ask, I really don't want to stick my foot in my mouth or give lovely non-answers. Any other olds have any tips or experience with an experience similar to this?
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Jun 2, 2019 18:22
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Oh, I'm absolutely not planning to stay where I am. It's just hard to muster the energy to do a job hunt right now, and I'm worried that wherever I end up I'll still be burnt out. I was getting burned out at my old job and it was making looking for a new one hard, but once I found one and started all the burnout totally melted away. This may have been because I like the new job a lot, though - moving to another mediocre one might not have had the same effect.
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Jun 2, 2019 19:05
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Sinten posted:My main gap is probably behavioral stuff that the hiring manager may ask, I really don't want to stick my foot in my mouth or give lovely non-answers. Any other olds have any tips or experience with an experience similar to this? If you're already practicing STAR stories I think you're in good shape. If you're worried about what kind of situations they'll ask you about, have a look at Amazon's leadership principles. If you have a STAR story for each of them, you'll have covered a broad spectrum of behavioral topics. Useful even if you're not interviewing at Amazon, because other companies are usually looking for similar qualities.
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Jun 2, 2019 19:53
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uncurable mlady posted:my 0.02 is that all of the ex-alphabet folks i work with are significantly happier to not be working there any more. can ya'll say more about this. everyone i have seen leave were either in a bad situation where they were failing to perform or failing to make career progress, or have been here long enough to be financially independent and can gently caress off to do another flying car startup or w/e. i don't really see how i can leave without taking a 50%+ paycut or going somewhere with an obviously shittier work environment. e: idk what i'm really asking here it just seems like it's impossible to leave this company while i'm performing well a slime fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 05:59
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At my job, I've distinguished myself by improving the way my company handles a particular unpleasant task and also handling them in great volume. This all started to happen about 2 years ago. Last year, a new person on my team quickly became my boss' right hand man. I didn't care too much, although I didn't see what was so great about him. Maybe 5 months ago, he was promoted to Director Of Unpleasant Task. I had no idea such a role would ever be created but felt a bit insulted that anyone other than myself would be chosen for it. It seems to be more of a project management role without any direct reports, though, so it wasn't hard to push my ego aside and get on with things. One week from today, I'm to have my annual performance review. I've already received uniformly glowing written feedback both from my boss and peer reviewers. On the invitation, I expected to see my boss and the VP of our department. Instead, I see it's my boss and the director I mentioned before. I do not report to him, or if I do, this was never told to me. Should I say something? Keep it to myself? I'm thinking I should send an email to my boss and the VP of our department explaining that I have never been this person's subordinate and am surprised that he would be present at my review, but I'm wary of looking like an rear end in a top hat. Should I send that sort of message before my review? Mention it during or after the review? Not mention it at all? I don't know if it should seem like a big deal, but it's 4am and I'm typing out this post because it's keeping me awake. I like working at the company, though I have no faith whatsoever in my boss' ability as a manager. Maybe it's time to apply for another role internally. spiritual bypass fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 09:35
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I wouldn't put it in email at first. If you're on chatting terms with your boss, I would talk to them directly and just ask (in a pleasant way) why the gently caress this guy is sitting in on your review. Hoping just the act of asking this will make your boss internally question it, but if not (and depending on your current relationship with said boss), you could mention that you just don't want them to be there. Performance reviews are an inherently private experience in my opinion, if you feel the same way you could mention how it makes you uncomfortable and will negatively impact your honestly if there is an "outsider" sitting in.
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Jun 4, 2019 10:02
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Part of the problem is that I'm a remote person at a company where nearly everyone is remote, but most of my team works on-site in an office. When I do speak to my boss we get along fine, but we basically never speak to one another. He's absent as a manager which isn't much of a problem because I'm inclined to direct myself. Now it is a problem because I need to raise a concern with him, but we do not have a regular habit of communication so it will be more jarring than necessary.
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Jun 4, 2019 10:21
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Having someone sit in at a review can mean a bunch of things but I learned to just shut up and accept whatever comes. Considering that your boss (or any other person outside yourself) has a say in your raise and promotion, it is best to remain friends. Also considering that this second guy is very good at the friendship game, you are better off just being kind. If you do not like working for either of the two, you might as well find another role as it seems you are not skilled in the whole politics thing. edit: there is no if()else() developer solution to this. It is about the ability to play the friendship game in the office and if that does not interest you, do not worry about it and just let management do their thing. It is not like you can influence it anyway?
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Jun 4, 2019 11:42
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Keetron posted:Having someone sit in at a review can mean a bunch of things but I learned to just shut up and accept whatever comes. Considering that your boss (or any other person outside yourself) has a say in your raise and promotion, it is best to remain friends. Also considering that this second guy is very good at the friendship game, you are better off just being kind. If you do not like working for either of the two, you might as well find another role as it seems you are not skilled in the whole politics thing. "Friendship game"?
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Jun 4, 2019 12:25
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Doh004 posted:"Friendship game"? The game of who’s the best pal of the boss, because a bad manager will weight reviews and other opportunities more generously towards their buddy than towards solid contributors who don’t have that positive mental association
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Jun 4, 2019 12:57
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rt4 posted:At my job, I've distinguished myself by improving the way my company handles a particular unpleasant task and also handling them in great volume. This all started to happen about 2 years ago. Last year, a new person on my team quickly became my boss' right hand man. I didn't care too much, although I didn't see what was so great about him. Maybe 5 months ago, he was promoted to Director Of Unpleasant Task. I had no idea such a role would ever be created but felt a bit insulted that anyone other than myself would be chosen for it. It seems to be more of a project management role without any direct reports, though, so it wasn't hard to push my ego aside and get on with things. the problem is that you can't be promoted anymore because who else would do unpleasant task? wait you get your own scrum master, your own documentation person, your own QA, and your own product owner as well.
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Jun 4, 2019 13:35
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No, sorry, I meant "project manager" as in someone who makes pointless spreadsheets as their core job duty
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Jun 4, 2019 13:46
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a slime posted:can ya'll say more about this. everyone i have seen leave were either in a bad situation where they were failing to perform or failing to make career progress, or have been here long enough to be financially independent and can gently caress off to do another flying car startup or w/e. i don't really see how i can leave without taking a 50%+ paycut or going somewhere with an obviously shittier work environment. i'd estimate that most of the people i know were there long enough that they wanted to move on to do other things, but were in a place where they could have probably could have stayed as long as they wanted and decided to take a pay cut to do other stuff. my take is mostly that google is basically a modern microsoft or IBM or <insert other tech behemoth> at this point and that comes with a lot of trappings that aren't for everyone. you're right about the money though, you're highly unlikely to get paid the same unless you lateral to another letter in the FAANGs.
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Jun 4, 2019 13:59
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csammis posted:The game of who’s the best pal of the boss, because a bad manager will weight reviews and other opportunities more generously towards their buddy than towards solid contributors who don’t have that positive mental association I get that there are some managers that put too much emphasis on personal relationships with their direct reports and that can (will) lead to problems for, say, performance reviews. But I'd say that's reading a bit too much into what rt4 posted originally. Also, who's to say someone's solid contributions doesn't also provide positive mental associations? Keetron posted:edit: there is no if()else() developer solution to this. It is about the ability to play the friendship game in the office and if that does not interest you, do not worry about it and just let management do their thing. It is not like you can influence it anyway? I'm not a fan of this and it comes off awkwardly. You don't need to be friends with your boss or your coworkers, but having a friendly disposition and personality at work (or anywhere?) is almost always the most effective way to be successful. rt4 posted:At my job, I've distinguished myself by improving the way my company handles a particular unpleasant task and also handling them in great volume. This all started to happen about 2 years ago. Last year, a new person on my team quickly became my boss' right hand man. I didn't care too much, although I didn't see what was so great about him. Maybe 5 months ago, he was promoted to Director Of Unpleasant Task. I had no idea such a role would ever be created but felt a bit insulted that anyone other than myself would be chosen for it. It seems to be more of a project management role without any direct reports, though, so it wasn't hard to push my ego aside and get on with things. Just get on a call with your manager and ask them why they'll be there. Explain you're confused as they haven't been part of your professional development before (if you are confused about it). It's not malicious to ask and it's your boss' responsibility to explain it. Candidly, it sounds like he's potentially going to start offloading people management of his direct reports to this new Director. Doh004 fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 15:57
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Doh004 posted:Candidly, it sounds like he's potentially going to start offloading people management of his direct reports to this new Director. And since new Director is Director of Horrible Task, he may have seen your perf review as a way to get new director up-to-speed on all the stuff you have been doing on Horrible Task.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:17
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Adhemar posted:If you're already practicing STAR stories I think you're in good shape. If you're worried about what kind of situations they'll ask you about, have a look at Amazon's leadership principles. If you have a STAR story for each of them, you'll have covered a broad spectrum of behavioral topics. Useful even if you're not interviewing at Amazon, because other companies are usually looking for similar qualities. Thanks for this, I looked it over before and it helped. The interview went well and they gave me a verbal offer today! Having STAR stories prepared makes behavioral interviews so much easier.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:34
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a slime posted:i don't really see how i can leave without taking a 50%+ paycut or going somewhere with an obviously shittier work environment. There's not much to it. You lucked out. For now. There's good teams with good folks (for your relative personal values of 'good') and FAANG's can have pockets inside that are largely separate from the BS. There are lovely teams, likely within your org. Do you work with teams that are on-call for production issues? Are there any lateral teams with such starkly different management styles that you wouldn't last a year? I found a great niche team with a manager whose style suits me very well. The team across the hall has a brash loud manager that does daily drop-in 1:1's with everyone and it just looks awful. It might help (?) to think of it in terms like a bus factor. How many folks around you need to leave/change/etc. before you'd probably be unhappy. I genuinely thought I'd be at my first company "forever" and the honeymoon ended around year 8. I could see the persistent issues that plagued project after project, tried to get into a position to fix them, and was flatly told no. I wasn't failing to perform what they'd asked of me, I wasn't failing to make progress, everything was chugging along on those axes. But frustrations added up, and a good opportunity had me jump ship. You ought to be aware that it's possible to work yourself into a spot where you've got years of RSU grants stacked up and you cannot leave without taking a 50% pay cut. That's a fun one.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:55
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Sinten posted:Thanks for this, I looked it over before and it helped. The interview went well and they gave me a verbal offer today! Having STAR stories prepared makes behavioral interviews so much easier.  Awesome, congrats!
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Jun 5, 2019 02:17
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Adhemar posted:
Thanks! What does everyone do when they line up a new job and go to put in their 2 weeks notice? My background check passed surprisingly fast and I have a hard start date. My current boss is scummy and I don't trust him, but other people have left the team without issue. I'm considering not even sharing where I'm going with him or anyone on the team (just so he can't find out), but I don't know if that's weird and paranoid. They're not a competitor, I just really don't want him knowing my business. I've always been open about it in my past positions but this has been a weirdly toxic place. My plan is to tell him I'm quitting and suggest we chat about it more later once he's had time to chew on it and digest it for a little bit, this has usually worked in the past but I don't know if there's a non-awkward way to avoid telling him where I'm going. biceps crimes fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 21:53
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If asked, or if I'm on friendly terms with my boss, I've always stated it as "I'm going to do $ROLE at a company that does $BUSINESS"
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Jun 5, 2019 22:13
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When I gave notice at my previous job, I gave like eight reasons why I felt things weren't working out after four months and that boss went, "Got it. You don't like C#." The boss also asked where I was headed and I didn't really want to say, but couldn't think of a good dodge. I'm sure the report to their supervisors on why I left was "C#, better benefits across town." with no introspection over the other seven reasons I gave. I still can't think of a good way to dodge the question, short of sending an email at 5:01 on my last day saying, "Oh by the way, I'm leaving without notice."
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Jun 5, 2019 22:23
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