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Lumpy the Cook posted:And I don't even know you. Buzz off. I know you I'll buzz off when I want to Why is nato a terrorist organization? Would you rather have russia own the poo poo out of Baltic countries or what?
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Feb 16, 2017 19:44
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That Robot posted:oh it's this retarded conservative meme again He said sorry for being a KKK grand wizard!
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Feb 16, 2017 19:46
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"trickle down" isn't about the undetermined motive force, it's about the force of personality necessary to actively shape the world in your image. only remarkably egoistic and violent people would ever think to tell everyone else what to do; but it is this that focuses effort in such a way that "more than need" is accomplished. if given their druthers, most people would chill and "get by." but they're not allowed. there is always someone with a gun telling them what to do. by this process, the world is gradually enslaved to a certain type of economy, and this economy does one thing very very well -- it extracts wealth from the landscape and the populace and moves it upward, to the people who either (a) were crazy enough to get involved on their own (b) were born into it. in the meantime, the people who are being forced to work are gradually separated, by the people in charge, into two classes: citizens, and everyone else. citizens get a little bit of the benefits of the organized economy, and everyone else eats poo poo for a living.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:46
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:He said sorry for being a KKK grand wizard! yes let's ignore all my points whoever bought your av should get promoted
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Feb 16, 2017 19:47
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That Robot posted:I know you They violently enforce America's world trade system and murder anyone who would dare devalue the US dollar. I guess 'terrorist' isn't entirely accurate, since they're not very open with their ideologies or intentions- they're more like the mafia, except way sketchier.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:47
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That Robot posted:yes let's ignore all my points Yup, its a good idea to apologize and join the other side when it's politically expedient. I'm sure he had a really huge moral revelation
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Feb 16, 2017 19:48
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Lumpy the Cook posted:They violently enforce America's world trade system and murder anyone who would dare devalue the US dollar. I guess 'terrorist' isn't entirely accurate, since they're not very open with their ideologies or intentions- they're more like the mafia. sure sure I think this is an extreme interpretation so you would prefer to just let russia take over eastern europe? oh and the snark is still there
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Feb 16, 2017 19:49
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nomadologique posted:if given their druthers, most people would chill and "get by." but they're not allowed. there is always someone with a gun telling them what to do. by this process, the world is gradually enslaved to a certain type of economy, and this economy does one thing very very well -- it extracts wealth from the landscape and the populace and moves it upward, to the people who either (a) were crazy enough to get involved on their own (b) were born into it. Man you're jumping around from discipline to discipline asserting all kinds of poo poo that isn't true to support your argument. quote:if given their druthers, most people would chill and "get by." like that just isn't true man. Given their druthers most people want to feel like they are doing something that matters and that they enjoy doing. Just because people aren't stoked for their office 9-5 doesn't mean anything. I can cite stuff here but man that's just one thing you're pulling out your butt let alone the other stuff. And also if that's all true explain why feudal Europe was poor as gently caress for so long.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:49
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:Yup, its a good idea to apologize and join the other side when it's politically expedient. I'm sure he had a really huge moral revelation or maybe people can change and learn from their mistakes oh wait alt-right morons are incapable of learning, I forgot that's why you don't get it haha
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Feb 16, 2017 19:49
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That Robot posted:or maybe people can change and learn from their mistakes If it was an ex-KKK Republican you would poo poo your pantaloons
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Feb 16, 2017 19:50
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And so what is the ultimate argument here anyway, "poo poo has always sucked and always will suck so be grateful for what you have you peasants?" gently caress that, fam. 
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Feb 16, 2017 19:50
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Moridin920 posted:When has American society forcibly organized labor? it has been forcibly organized by the entire material history of the world. it's an ongoing process. capitalism didn't arise whole cloth; it appeared as an evolution from precedents. but somebody has to keep banging it into shape from generation to generation, by enacting laws and inventing strategies. those people are not workers, they are "captains of industry" and "politicians." some folks in the last century tried an experiment where they would radically reject history and force-organize from the ground up along new lines and boy that did not work. europe did quite a few things to come into possession of the entire world, and none of them were peaceful. they forced the entire world to play the game they defined, and it worked. now everybody gets to participate in this economy, whether they like it or not.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:50
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:If it was an ex-KKK Republican you would poo poo your pantaloons so your posts would fall into my pantaloons? 
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Feb 16, 2017 19:51
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That Robot posted:sure sure It sucks for the Baltic States to have to switch between being enslaved by one criminalistic world superpower or another, but hopefully they'll be truly independent some day.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:52
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nomadologique posted:it has been forcibly organized by the entire material history of the world. it's an ongoing process. capitalism didn't arise whole cloth; it appeared as an evolution from precedents. I mean you're just demonstrating a pretty shallow understanding of all kinds of things from human behavior to history to socialism in an effort to fellate the elite so I'ma just go back to commie memes. There is no capital without labor, comrade. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 19:53
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Lumpy the Cook posted:It sucks for the Baltic States to have to switch between being enslaved by one criminalistic world superpower or another, but hopefully they'll be truly independent some day. ah yes another fine analysis by armchair geopolitical scientist lumpy the cook you hate everything haha
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Feb 16, 2017 19:55
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Moridin920 posted:like that just isn't true man. Given their druthers most people want to feel like they are doing something that matters and that they enjoy doing. ya that's fine. i mean that most people wouldn't try to amass huge amounts of wealth at the expense of others. the history of the world, though, is that those few people willing to amass huge amounts of wealth at the expense of others tend to succeed. their willingness, and their tendency to succeed, is one of the most important forces shaping the evolution of the material world. without that drive, we'd probably still be chilling in caves, which is fine. that is neither better nor worse than what we're doing now. Moridin920 posted:And so what is the ultimate argument here anyway, "poo poo has always sucked and always will suck so be grateful for what you have you peasants?" nah this isn't what i'm saying. i'm saying more or less what i said in the other thread, which is there is no moral high ground. the material world is amoral. do what you gotta do, but don't imagine yourself justified by anything but material expedience. fight if you have to, but climbing down someone's throat for fighting the "wrong" fight is an untenable position.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:56
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nomadologique posted:nah this isn't what i'm saying. i'm saying more or less what i said in the other thread, which is there is no moral high ground. the material world is amoral. do what you gotta do, but don't imagine yourself justified by anything but material expedience. That's fine I agree with that for the most part I suppose. Still I feel like one position is "take what you can and gently caress everyone else" and the other is "there is enough to provide for all if we work together" and objectively if we did the "if you had to pick a society to enter and you get placed on the pyramid at random" experiment most people would want the one where they are gonna be doing alright whether on the top or the bottom. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 19:56
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i'll say it as explicitly as i can, i don't support the elite. you'll either have to trust me on that or proceed in bad faith.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:57
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nomadologique posted:i'll say it as explicitly as i can, i don't support the elite. I do feel like you're saying that people in the USA don't have any grounds for complaint and that we should be happy with what they give us, though. e: this is what I was looking to reference in my previous post btw, forgot what it was called exactly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance I dunno that I buy that there is no moral high ground to be found anywhere.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:59
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nomadologique posted:i didn't say anything about that. I must've misunderstood then. It looked like you were saying that it's okay for the rich to abuse the lower classes because Americans have luxuries that other countries don't.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:00
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Moridin920 posted:I do feel like you're saying that people in the USA don't have any grounds for complaint and that we should be happy with what they give us, though. nah i'm saying that coming at rich people for being exploitative assholes is hypocritical, because we're all exploitative assholes.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:01
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Thread derailed by communists debating theory and economic morality
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Feb 16, 2017 20:01
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nomadologique posted:nah i'm saying that coming at rich people for being exploitative assholes is hypocritical, because we're all exploitative assholes. To vastly different degrees, but also we don't have much choice in the matter; at least not like the rich do. I'm not the one choosing to exploit cheap labor for my clothing company; I'm just the poor schmuck who needs to buy a work uniform the cheapest I can find it because they pay me below the poverty line. I mean c'mon you can't say wage slaves and billionaires are morally equivalent for their participation in the system can you?
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Feb 16, 2017 20:01
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That Robot posted:ah yes another fine analysis by armchair geopolitical scientist lumpy the cook The secret to Lumpys posting is that he never posts anything you didn't know he was going to say already, and he does so in the most cliched and banal way he can, like a pasta machine endlessly making GBS threads out a perfectly smooth and straight macaroni noodle.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:02
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nomadologique posted:nah i'm saying that coming at rich people for being exploitative assholes is hypocritical, because we're all exploitative assholes. Well I can agree that all of us are selfish assholes, and also hypocrites. That's human nature. The hypocrisy doesn't change the fact at rich people are abusing the rest of us.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:04
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That Robot posted:ah yes another fine analysis by armchair geopolitical scientist lumpy the cook I don't hate everything- I love people, and want them freed.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:05
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Lol at an ideology that is based around supporting an American Crassus so that his patronage will benefit you once he controls a net worth equal to the total annual budget of the treasury.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:05
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complain away. do anything you have to. just don't use moral grounds to justify your behavior. that's all i agitate about, really. all this moral hypocrisy. i want people to say what they really mean "all i want is a world where everyone can get fed." okay, then realize that someone like barack obama probably did go into office wanting just that, and ended up murdering a thousand innocent people, and that, probably, his positions and behaviors are far more rigorous than yours have ever been. so then go on to say what is real: "all i want is a world where everyone can get fed, and i'm willing to break a few eggs to get there, and by a few eggs, i mean, somebody is going to get the short end of the stick one way or another, and i just hope that person can understand it's for the greater good." i'm asking for humility. humility from those who believe themselves incontrovertibly "better" than others. i'm even suggesting that that attitude plays a huge role in the history of mutual human antagonism.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:05
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Moridin920 posted:To vastly different degrees, but also we don't have much choice in the matter; at least not like the rich do. I'm not the one choosing to exploit cheap labor for my clothing company; I'm just the poor schmuck who needs to buy a work uniform the cheapest I can find it because they pay me below the poverty line. everyone is morally equivalent because i can write a moral calculus to produce any loving outcome i want.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:07
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I mean I'm not a billionaire and the money might change me but honestly yeah I'm a better person than Alice Walton, billionaire who pays her employees less than poverty wages and also kills people drunk driving and shows no remorse whatsoever. :P quote:everyone is morally equivalent because i can write a moral calculus to produce any loving outcome i want. well that's just arguing in bad faith lol. What about the 'veil of ignorance' thing? quote:The idea of the thought experiment is to render obsolete those personal considerations that are morally irrelevant to the justice or injustice of principles meant to allocate the benefits of social cooperation. The veil of ignorance is part of a long tradition of thinking in terms of a social contract that includes the writings of Immanuel Kant, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Jean Jacques Rousseau, and Thomas Jefferson. Can't we say that certain societal make ups are better than others like that?
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Feb 16, 2017 20:07
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I think the president is mentally deficient and long for the days of W.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:08
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Moridin920 posted:I mean I'm not a billionaire and the money might change me but honestly yeah I'm a better person than Alice Walton, billionaire who pays her employees less than poverty wages and also kills people drunk driving and shows no remorse whatsoever. maybe what i really want is for everyone to publish a huge list of the most moral to the least moral. like, just lemme know where you stand in relation to some big public figures, so i can get an idea of what your equations look like.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:09
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nomadologique posted:maybe what i really want is for everyone to publish a huge list of the most moral to the least moral. like, just lemme know where you stand in relation to some big public figures, so i can get an idea of what your equations look like. I feel like if that is really your requirement for admitting the possibility that maybe actually people who are wealthy beyond reason and continue to brutally exploit others anyway are not just the same as the average common man trying to get the bills paid and the kids through school then you're the one arguing in way bad faith and also that's ideology as gently caress right there.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:10
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Moridin920 posted:Can't we say that certain societal make ups are better than others like that? sure we can, i have no idea what it means. go for it.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:11
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Also I don't understand this: even if you are 100% correct then so what? Does that mean we can't try to better organize society and the economy to work for more than just a few? We should just give up because hey we're all hypocritical exploiters?nomadologique posted:sure we can, i have no idea what it means. go for it. Well like, surely a society that has large swathes of its population in chattel slavery is not as morally good as one that doesn't? Right? I mean surely not literally everything is morally equivalent come on.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:12
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I never bought into the "America is the New Rome" narrative but I realize now that there are people who would be happy to have "Great Men" bestow patronage on them and are so disenchanted with plebeians having a say that they'd back a Triumvirate.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:12
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Frosted Flake posted:I never bought into the "America is the New Rome" narrative but I realize now that there are people who would be happy to have "Great Men" bestow patronage on them and are so disenchanted with plebeians having a say that they'd back a Triumvirate.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:20
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Moridin920 posted:I feel like if that is really your requirement for admitting the possibility that maybe actually people who are wealthy beyond reason and continue to brutally exploit others anyway are not just the same as the average common man trying to get the bills paid and the kids through school then you're the one arguing in way bad faith and also that's ideology as gently caress right there. i guess. what i see is moral compromise up and down. which is fine, because, as i understand the world, morality is a dimension superadded to material. there is nothing inherently moral in the material world. what i see is that everyone is willing to make excuses for her or himself because "i'm just trying to get the bills paid," which her and him and you and me all make sure to separate from "but it's not as bad as what they do." so, what i see is this: (1) person does a thing because he or she has to or wants to (2) person maybe doesn't feel entirely comfortable with this thing, especially as relates to previously held beliefs about right and wrong (3) person looks around for someone doing a worse thing, and says "see it is not as bad as that" (4) person flexes previously held beliefs until the discomfort goes away, because "every rule has exceptions" (5) ??? (6) profit i am suggesting that this discomfort is not inherent but learned. and chosen. that there is nothing universal about it. i am also suggesting that, if one of your previously held beliefs is that violence is wrong, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that other people don't think that way. that there is nothing on earth or in heaven guaranteeing that as part of some universal moral contract. more or less, that if you wish to believe and behave morally, you must accept a few things: (a) that you will compromise those beliefs from time to time (b) that your morality will be either complete and inconsistent, or incomplete and consistent (c) that other people will not share your moral beliefs, and will act in ways that you consider immoral (d) that you will have to deal with this one way or another, and if that conflict is a conflict of force and violence, all bets are usually off i am willing to go along with whatever terms you want to set. so long as i understand them in advance. if day to day stuff is "better" in your book than corporate exploitation -- and i think that is a very "reasonable" position, for whatever reason is worth -- another decision we each must make -- then we can talk that talk. it helps me to understand you and the things that you say, to understand how you distribute your values and valuations.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:20
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Sheep-Goats posted:The secret to Lumpys posting is that he never posts anything you didn't know he was going to say already, and he does so in the most cliched and banal way he can, like a pasta machine endlessly making GBS threads out a perfectly smooth and straight macaroni noodle. a pasta machine making GBS threads; an apt analogy you are cool, sheep-goats. i like the animal does thing series.
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Feb 16, 2017 20:20
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