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So, playing in a PbP (run by Gradenko; hi, Gradenko!) as an unchained rogue. I'm still a bit shaky on Pathfinder (used to know 3.5 pretty well, but that was a long while ago). Here's my build. Not entirely sure where to go from here. I'd like to stay in a somewhat skillmonkeyish role, while being able to contribute fairly well in combat. I'll be going to just short swords once I hit third level and can add my dex to damage with them. Which rogue talents should I be aiming for? Which feats? Should i consider multi-classing, and if so, to what? Limited magic is in effect, so caster types are somewhat weaker than normal.
JackMann fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 20:46
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I'll probably never get the chance to play pathfinder locally. Are there any goons doing it say like, online? How is that "guild" thing they have going on? Not sure how something like that is played.
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Jul 10, 2015 04:59
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Are there any goons doing it say like, online? I'm currently running a PbP of it., and there's a couple more by other posters I've noticed in the Game Room.
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Jul 10, 2015 05:09
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I'm looking for PFS GMing advice: So in I dunno 30% of scenarios I GM in PFS at least one person dies. I'm not trying to kill anyone, but players keep doing really dumb poo poo after they've been fairly explicitly warned not to, or get really unlucky with crits and damage rolls, or it's a combo of both. In the PFS groups in the area, people don't die very often, but for some reason people just die at my table and it's confusing. So the times I've killed PCs are: A full health Wizard gets hit by the bad guy's above average damage lightning bolt and dies. Wizard goes off alone to explore a crypt without the rest of the party, is told that's a bad idea, gets hit by a trap, goes unconscious, makes no fort save and dies. A full health Investigator walks up to the bad guy to flank, next round gets crit and dies. Earlier he got himself flanked by rogues and only didn't die because I didn't mention they had Bleeding Attack 5. That fight should have been a TPK but we ran out of time so I handwaved it and the party survived. They were barely into the high tier of the scenario. A bow Ranger takes a shot at construct bad guy who has a Longspear, which provokes an AOO. The Ranger gets crit, gets down to 2 HP, and then sticks around. Wizard bad guy wants to Fireball, but waits a few rounds because I'm trying to avoid killing people, so he misses a couple of Scorching Rays on a different PC instead. After he's out of other damaging spells, he doesn't have much else to do, so Fireball, hits 3/4 of the party, and the Ranger dies. Party is in a temple, they're told the priest wont see them, and that he has guards outside of his room 24/7. Two PCs sneak up onto a balcony and into the priest's room. Priest says leave or he calls the guards, PCs say they're not leaving, priest says no seriously I'm calling the guards, PCs say they just need to talk and aren't leaving. Priest calls guards, two encounters happen at once. The two PCs jump off the balcony while another guy runs through a hallway, straight into the middle of 4 enemies and gets surrounded. He gets crit and dies. Later, a Sorcerer chases after the priest guy, who runs to fight in a better spot and to heal himself. Sorcerer runs straight into melee, and tries to hit the priest with their staff. Sorcerer goes unconscious and later dies. Turns into basically a TPK, but I tell them to run and they hit a tanglefoot bag, then I have the priest try and break it with a staff instead of channeling negative and killing everyone. Level five Witch with 37 HP is standing next to an Iron Golem, which is CR13, deals 2d10+16, and is sort of a police enforcer. Another PC is there with him, but listens to the cops and doesn't run. Combat happens with the Iron Golems only if you make incredibly terrible decisions. The golem will attack if they try to run or do anything hostile, and the Witch is explicitly told that, and it's heavily hinted at that he WILL die if the golem attacks. The rest of the party is being chased by a different Iron Golem and are running away. After five or six rounds, the Witch tries to run, and the Iron Golem takes an AOO, crits, deals 4d10+32. The Witch dies, but I handwave it and say he's one away of whatever his negative con is. Did I do anything wrong? Should I just fudge more dice rolls? Halve the crit range of NPCs? I can't see anywhere I hosed up, but drat, I've killed more people than the rest of the GMs combined since I started GMing.
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Jul 11, 2015 17:21
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It sounds like a mix of dumb players and of the characters just not having enough AC/saves/HP. Are these guys running around without any kind of cloaks of resistance, amulets of natural armor, belts of mighty constitution, etc?
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Jul 11, 2015 21:12
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You aren't loving up, it just seems to be an even mix of incredibly dumb PCs, and the general rocket-tag nature of Pathfinder.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:58
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Yeah, sounds like a bunch of bad crits. In a home game I'd suggest fudging the crits down. In a PFS game, that's what they signed up for. If you're feeling guilty, roll your rolls out in the open and show them the combat stat blocks.
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Jul 12, 2015 00:23
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Word, I appreciate the feedback. I don't think they generally go for defensive items, and they do make some really bad decisions.
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Jul 12, 2015 01:19
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Yeeeah given the nature of Pathfinder at any level above 3, not having defensive stuff like Cloaks of Resistance and Nat. Amulets is gonna leads to deaths. As is sheer stupidity, but that is certainly not your problem. I'd agree that you roll in the open, to shut up complainers, but other than that... they're premade adventures. It's not like YOU are giving them high difficulty enemies or impossible traps, so they really can't blame you too much, since the kills you listed don't see to be the fault of you DMing.
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Jul 12, 2015 05:56
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Scrimsax posted:So in I dunno 30% of scenarios I GM in PFS at least one person dies. I'm not trying to kill anyone, but players keep doing really dumb poo poo after they've been fairly explicitly warned not to, or get really unlucky with crits and damage rolls, or it's a combo of both. In the PFS groups in the area, people don't die very often, but for some reason people just die at my table and it's confusing.
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Jul 12, 2015 06:08
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Using the standard monster stat arrays and the Automatic Bonus Progression from Unchained, I've tried to break down how a character's basic attack roll would fare against a monster's AC:  Can someone tell me if I'm way off the mark and/or missing something critical? I know I'm still missing whatever items a character might buy, but with Automatic Bonus Progression halving the wealth-by-level amounts and those rules themselves giving the enhancement bonuses "for free" all the way up to +5, it's really either just allowing a character to access the next +1 earlier, or buy a non-numerical special ability for themselves like Flaming burst. Are there any special abilities that would let them increase their to-hit even further? I also know I'm assuming a Human character, whereas min-maxing might suggest a race with a +2 to STR/DEX, although that would just increase the to-hit by another 5% across the board.
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Jul 15, 2015 14:54
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Is the pathfinder starter box still relevant and worth while? What other books should I get? There's like a billion things out D:
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Jul 15, 2015 16:46
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Is the pathfinder starter box still relevant and worth while? The Beginner Box, from what I understand, plays just fine as a game by itself. As for what else to get, if you're new to PF I wouldn't bother with anything beyond the corebook first so you can see how you like it. If you're planning to DM, maybe add the Bestiary. Or better yet, take a look at d20pfsrd.com before you decide if you want to shell out for books.
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Jul 15, 2015 17:05
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This is a useful, free reference: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources There's a PFRPG "cheat sheet," and a 3.5 "conversion guide" that explains how to convert an NPC from 3.5 to PF, which is a good way to learn the sort of changes that were made since then. The Beginner Box is a pretty much a standalone game with a couple of pregen characters and short adventures. It ignores anything beyond the most basic rules, and is a good crash course for people interested in diving in without a whole lot of experience. An experienced RPG gamer wouldn't gain to much playing through the Beginner Box, in my opinion. It's still fun though!
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Jul 15, 2015 17:47
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JackMann posted:So, playing in a PbP (run by Gradenko; hi, Gradenko!) as an unchained rogue. I'm still a bit shaky on Pathfinder (used to know 3.5 pretty well, but that was a long while ago). Here's my build. Not entirely sure where to go from here. I'd like to stay in a somewhat skillmonkeyish role, while being able to contribute fairly well in combat. I'll be going to just short swords once I hit third level and can add my dex to damage with them. Which rogue talents should I be aiming for? Which feats? Should i consider multi-classing, and if so, to what? Limited magic is in effect, so caster types are somewhat weaker than normal. So, any thoughts here?
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Jul 15, 2015 18:47
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gradenko_2000 posted:Using the standard monster stat arrays and the Automatic Bonus Progression from Unchained, I've tried to break down how a character's basic attack roll would fare against a monster's AC: Well, a human gets to allocate +2 to any stat, and it looks like the Unchained system doesn't include an equivalent for inherent (stat book or wish) stats, so that's another +4 you may as well factor in, since they're so common. You can get feats like Point Blank Shot or Weapon Focus for more generic bonuses. You can get situational bonuses (flanking, high ground, etc). Tons and tons of class features add hit bonuses (Weapon Training, Rage, Smite, Flurry of Blows, Favored Enemy). Then you can add in magic items and temporary buffs. The only thing I'd note is that virtually everyone would be Power Attacking and dealing with the penalty. Even then, though, it's terribly unlikely for anything in the game to miss with anything but a 1 on its highest iterative attack. Starting in the lower-middle levels, AC is a terrible stat in PF except for occasionally stopping a lower iterative. Bleu fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 19:29
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JackMann posted:So, playing in a PbP (run by Gradenko; hi, Gradenko!) as an unchained rogue. I'm still a bit shaky on Pathfinder (used to know 3.5 pretty well, but that was a long while ago). Here's my build. Not entirely sure where to go from here. I'd like to stay in a somewhat skillmonkeyish role, while being able to contribute fairly well in combat. I'll be going to just short swords once I hit third level and can add my dex to damage with them. Which rogue talents should I be aiming for? Which feats? Should i consider multi-classing, and if so, to what? Limited magic is in effect, so caster types are somewhat weaker than normal. Rogue talents are a poor lot in general, but Certainty, Bleeding Attack, Weapon Training and Combat Trick stand out to me. For feat, I notice you're already favoring twf. Two-weapon fighting is neat, but it tends to be a trap. Be careful. If that is what you're going with, you know what your feats will be for a while. Otherwise, Vital Strike is solid, as is Piranha Strike, if you're using short swords (power attack for light weapons without a str req). Critical feats are nice too, especially if you go with rapiers instead. Multi-classing tends not to be great in PF, although it can give you some cool niches, especially if you look around prestige classes. Shadowdancer can give a rogue some neat toys with only a small dip.
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Jul 16, 2015 00:27
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Another thing to sort of keep in mind is that the two best finesse weapons (the estoc and the Wakizashi) are both exotic, so finding a way to get ewt or just proficiency with those weapons makes an unchained rogue way better
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Jul 16, 2015 00:45
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Afaik the Ninja archetype works with Unchained Rogue so that gets you the Wakizashi and other toys like a Ki pool.
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Jul 16, 2015 01:16
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So now that some time has passed, how are the Spiritualists? Can I play a Jojo?
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Jul 16, 2015 01:33
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Scrimsax posted:Rogue talents are a poor lot in general, but Certainty, Bleeding Attack, Weapon Training and Combat Trick stand out to me. For feat, I notice you're already favoring twf. Two-weapon fighting is neat, but it tends to be a trap. Be careful. If that is what you're going with, you know what your feats will be for a while. Otherwise, Vital Strike is solid, as is Piranha Strike, if you're using short swords (power attack for light weapons without a str req). Critical feats are nice too, especially if you go with rapiers instead. Multi-classing tends not to be great in PF, although it can give you some cool niches, especially if you look around prestige classes. Shadowdancer can give a rogue some neat toys with only a small dip. Wouldn't vital strike be worse for rogues, since they would only get their sneak attack damage once? I mean, I get that it's a little bit better when you can't get a full attack on, but with most finesse weapons, that's only an extra 1d6 or 1d8 to your attack, compared with potentially getting another attack with 2d6 damage. Unfortunately, it looks like I can't multiclass into ninja. Might use a feat to get wakizashi proficiency by third level, so I can get dex to damage with it. At one point, I was going to go tengu instead of catfolk. Kind of wishing I had now. Piranha Strike looks pretty good.
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Jul 16, 2015 01:57
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Maybe ask Gradenko if you can switch from rogue to ninja at some point?
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Jul 16, 2015 02:03
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Ninja is a Rogue archetype, not a class of its own. It's a sorta advanced archetype since it changes so much but still, just an archetype.
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Jul 16, 2015 02:29
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By the Super Strict Rules, ninja stands on its own as a class. It's just a class that's just like rogue with better features, much the way unchained rogue loses absolutely nothing over vanilla rogue. If you wanted to retrain into ninja within the rules, you could use the retraining rules do it for 50g and a five- to ten-day break, depending on if you can find yourself a level 2 ninja somewhere. That's not really what you asked, though, so I'll try and put some relevant stuff in. TWF rogues got some love from unchained because they get two free feats (basically) to loosen up their heavy feat tax, and Debilitating Injury makes it easier to hit with your 3/4 BAB and TWF attack penalties. Honestly, I'd suggest to anybody who can that they take the Hidden Blade archetype from DSP if they want to play a rogue, since it trades away something lovely (half of your rogue talents) for something awesome (maneuvers, stances, gambits, Quick Draw, a funny gimmick with portable holes). I might have a small bias towards maneuvers in general, though. Regarding weapon choices; the honest best choice for a finesse weapon is the humble unarmed strike, which is easier to enchant via an amulet than two separate weapons and is compatible with some good feat chains, like the Sap Master chain. It was basically a tossup when I made my warlord to see if I'd make him a Steelfist Commando; I might still go ahead and spend a week or so retraining him and try it later. I wouldn't suggest trying to force an exotic weapon into your hands; the wakizashi is a mere 1 average damage over the kukri. Getting martial proficiency isn't as poor, since you can't find a light simple weapon with an 18-20 crit range. Rapiers are, annoyingly, not light weapons (they're one-handed weapons with the finesse trait), so by the rules dual-wielding them inflicts the heavier TWF penalties. Because rogues have a few more feats, it's more reasonable to look at taking things like the Intimidate feats (Enforcer, Shatter Defenses, etc.) to enable sneak attacks, or using Eldritch Heritage: Sylvan/Animal Ally to get a pet flanking buddy to hang out with you. If you want to Power Attack, you can get Piranha Strike pretty trivially, and it's a bit better on an unchained rogue than it was on vanilla rogues. Rogue talents suck. Take the ones that turn into feats and basically pick whichever other ones amuse you, because they're extremely low-impact compared to something like, say, discoveries or rage powers. Some prestige classes are OK, especially if you can get quick access to Arcane Trickster through a racial SLA (in a sorta rulesy grey area, but a lot of prestige classes are worthless without it, sooo...). You lose very little by going Arcane Trickster and gain quite a bit. Maybe take a look at the ones that exist and suggest which ones amuse you? There's enough content in Pathfinder now that you can probably find a way to make it work. Bleu fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 02:39
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Hey so I'm just getting into this, and you guys had mentioned the unchained rogue not having drawbacks compared to vanilla. Are they all like that?
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Jul 16, 2015 02:53
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Zombie #246 posted:Hey so I'm just getting into this, and you guys had mentioned the unchained rogue not having drawbacks compared to vanilla. Are they all like that? The unchained rogue is a strict upgrade (and is fully compatible with all its old archetypes, too!). The unchained monk has some downsides (low will save, incompatible with most old archetypes, can't be a zen archer and shoot a guy 500 times), but is strong enough to reasonably stand above old monk standbys like Hungry Ghost or Sohei if you want to punch people in the face. Unchained summoner was meant to be a nerf, but somehow Paizo managed to put most of the nerfs on the summoner's pet fighter, rather than the summoner's ability to poo poo out SLA Summon Monsters all day. Bleu fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 03:01
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Unchained Barbarian is a bit of a mixed bag. - Strength bonus was changed to a bonus to attack & damage rolls. While it's easier to handle, it's a nerf since you get less of a damage bonus when wielding a weapon in two hands than you would with normal rage. - Constitution bonus was changed to Temporary Hit Points. While it means you're not going to die instantly the moment your rage ends anymore, you don't get an increased Fort save the Con increase would get you. - Some Rage Powers were changed. While some changes are good (Raging Climber and Raging Swimmer now grant a climb & a swim speed, respectively, instead of just bonuses to the respective skills), others are bad (Spell Sunder's function was rolled into Witch Hunter, which you think would be good, but it only triggers on a critical hit, and only ever shuts down a spell for one round)
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Jul 16, 2015 03:04
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I'll be honest; I completely forgot Unchained Barbarian exists. It was the martial class that, in my opinion, least needed a rework, and you'll least notice the difference if you play one or the other.
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Jul 16, 2015 03:08
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Is the pathfinder starter box still relevant and worth while? The Beginner Box is very good if you're absolutely new to pen and paper roleplaying games. It walks you from a step by step tutorial right through to creating your own adventures. The core actual products you need to start playing are the Core Rulebook (and if you're the GM) the Bestiary. If you have the money to buy more, pick up a copy of the Strategy Guide (if you're playing) or GameMastery Guide (if you're the GM.) You'll also need one of each polyhedral die, which most hobby stores sell in a set for about $10 matched, or less if you pick through their extras bin. Bleu posted:Well, a human gets to allocate +2 to any stat, and it looks like the Unchained system doesn't include an equivalent for inherent (stat book or wish) stats, so that's another +4 you may as well factor in, since they're so common. Inherent stat bonuses are included in Unchained's automatic bonus progression system - they're legendary gifts, received at level 19 and above.
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Jul 16, 2015 03:18
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Arivia posted:The Beginner Box is very good if you're absolutely new to pen and paper roleplaying games. It walks you from a step by step tutorial right through to creating your own adventures. The core actual products you need to start playing are the Core Rulebook (and if you're the GM) the Bestiary. If you have the money to buy more, pick up a copy of the Strategy Guide (if you're playing) or GameMastery Guide (if you're the GM.) You'll also need one of each polyhedral die, which most hobby stores sell in a set for about $10 matched, or less if you pick through their extras bin. IIRC, the Beginner Box also has a nice set of cardboard pawns and a flip mat, which are both handy for GMing. I honestly prefer pawns over models, since pretty much everybody in the bestiary has a matching pawn now. I guess I'd say that it's nice for getting started from absolute scratch, but if you already have dice and a mat and something to represent your mooks, probably not. Arivia posted:Inherent stat bonuses are included in Unchained's automatic bonus progression system - they're legendary gifts, received at level 19 and above. Oh, so they are, my bad. That's really, really late, though. Bleu fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 03:25
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Bleu posted:By the Super Strict Rules, ninja stands on its own as a class. It's just a class that's just like rogue with better features, much the way unchained rogue loses absolutely nothing over vanilla rogue. Looked into it, and seems that's the way it works. In the ACG it said that alternate classes were "technically archetypes" but I guess that wasn't uh rules text, whatever the gently caress that means. Alternate classes just have their own weird rules apparently and Paizo was just not really clear on how they work. Personally I'm not gonna retrain my unchained ninja until there's official errata or an FAQ because I'm a lazy piece of poo poo and bookkeeping is the worst.
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Jul 16, 2015 05:04
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Oh also on the unchanged rogue stuff, take the knife master archetype if you're going twf because it makes your sneak attack roll d8's with all light weapons (though I think it replaces trapsense with an ac bonus against all bladed weapons too? Depends on if you think your dm's gonna have you checking for traps a lot or be heavier on combat) But also maybe just ask your dm if you could be a tengu mechanically while being a cat person in narrative. Tengu twf rogues are fun because once you get the second weapon dex to damage you can use an estoc and wakizashi at the same time and basically be swinging a rapier and a greatsword simultaneously Also yeah hidden blades are great, maneuvers give you so many ways to force people flat footed and stances are all cool and gambits essentially make you a full bab class whenever you aren't switching stances Jolyne Cujoh fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 06:36
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I'm playing reign of winter and I'm wondering if ranged weapons count for the unchained rogues ability to apply dex to damage on one weapon. Or if it specifically meant for only light melee weapons?
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Jul 17, 2015 05:13
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Grimpond posted:I'm playing reign of winter and I'm wondering if ranged weapons count for the unchained rogues ability to apply dex to damage on one weapon. Or if it specifically meant for only light melee weapons? You can only choose Finesse weapons, and it only applies to melee attacks.
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Jul 17, 2015 05:15
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Are finesse weapons different than light weapons? Weapon Finesse says "With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain"
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Jul 17, 2015 05:21
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Grimpond posted:Are finesse weapons different than light weapons? Weapon Finesse says "With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain" yes, in that finesse weapons includes that list of non-light, yet still finesse, weapons
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Jul 17, 2015 05:24
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Thanks a bunch!
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Jul 17, 2015 05:31
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My friends and I are going to play a game of pathfinder and it's the first time I've ever played a D&D game outside of stuff like Baldur's Gate or NWN. Is rogue a decent choice for a beginner? Sweeping for traps, using a bunch of gimmicky items, and doing face of the party stuff seems neat, but should I go for something like Barbarian if I'm new to this stuff?
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Jul 21, 2015 11:45
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Robo Reagan posted:My friends and I are going to play a game of pathfinder and it's the first time I've ever played a D&D game outside of stuff like Baldur's Gate or NWN. Is rogue a decent choice for a beginner? Sweeping for traps, using a bunch of gimmicky items, and doing face of the party stuff seems neat, but should I go for something like Barbarian if I'm new to this stuff? It really depends on the game. If a lot of what your group is doing it beating up dudes killing poo poo. Go for the Barbarian over the Rogue (or pick a caster). If it's going to be a bit more mixed, a Rogue probably isn't too bad though depending on the level, a Cleric might be as good at sweeping for traps as the Rogue while a Sorcerer could probably be a better face while the Bard (among others) could do both without too much trouble.
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Jul 21, 2015 14:09
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Robo Reagan posted:My friends and I are going to play a game of pathfinder and it's the first time I've ever played a D&D game outside of stuff like Baldur's Gate or NWN. Is rogue a decent choice for a beginner? Sweeping for traps, using a bunch of gimmicky items, and doing face of the party stuff seems neat, but should I go for something like Barbarian if I'm new to this stuff? If your DM is fond of traps, I highly recommend grabbing Trap Spotter so you don't have to actively search every 5 ft. Square you come across.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:30
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