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That’s the one.
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Oct 24, 2019 16:41
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anilEhilated posted:It very much does. It teeters on the edge, certainly. The thing that "saves" it from my view is that Thomas does it because he has to prevent himself from becoming an uncontrolled, murderous monster and to get the power he needs to protect the people he loves from other monsters. He also takes some pains to avoid permanently injuring those from whom he feeds. Thomas comes off as a decent person required to do indecent things to live.
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Oct 24, 2019 16:47
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Necrotizer F posted:It teeters on the edge, certainly. The thing that "saves" it from my view is that Thomas does it because he has to prevent himself from becoming an uncontrolled, murderous monster and to get the power he needs to protect the people he loves from other monsters. He also takes some pains to avoid permanently injuring those from whom he feeds. Thomas comes off as a decent person required to do indecent things to live. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 16:50
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Anias posted:Disagree, The oblivion war is interesting, and L. Wraith is also interesting. The issue as usual is that the Harry Dresden viewport is not so interesting. The Oblivion War is stupid, and it also is not a White Court only affair. Other beings participate in it. How do you think Demonreach's prison was populated? The White Court certainly didn't do that.
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Oct 24, 2019 17:01
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anilEhilated posted:Which brings us back to the entirety of the White Court being a horrible idea in the first place. I very much disagree with this. The fact that they feed on "emotional energy" instead of doing physical harm (by drinking blood) allows them to initially be present as, well, maybe not "good" but the least harmful. Initially. That gives Dresden a way to rationalize tolerating and even allying with them. Thomas comes off initially as a fun-loving guy who gets his food by showing his partners a really good time in bed. Then, we learn more and Dresden learns more about how truly creepy and dangerous the White Court is, but by then it's too late to back out. Also, he now has a blood relation/connection with the Raiths through Thomas, so they're family. Harry's "frenemy" relationship with Marcone is easy to justify, morally, given Marcone's "rules" about innocents and especially children. His relationship with the White Court through the Raiths leads to some real moral complexity involving shades of gray and lesser evils. Also, Butcher doesn't present the Hunger as any kind of a good thing, unlike a lot of those paranormal "rapemances." What's also interesting is that the White Court vampires don't seem to physically need to "feed" to survive. They can eat normal foods, etc. They only need to feed to replenish energy lost when they use their powers. When Harry involves Thomas in his adventures, that means that Thomas has to feed to get that energy back, which adds additional moral complexity to the issue of calling on Thomas's help.
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Oct 24, 2019 17:59
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Harry doesn't really seem to dwell too much on Thomas' moral complexity tho, and Butcher is not a good enough author ( in that particular context ) to explore the White Court as a concept. Also his understanding of sex and gender is really juvenille- not in a piggishly harmful way, but in an endearingly 'bless your heart' way. The White Court are a bad idea because the answer to the question 'should I put more sex stuff in my book?' is almost always 'no'. The emotional energy thing is way more interesting a concept pertaining to basically any other emotion. And there's way less potential for gross, squishy pitfalls waiting like cold semen puddles in the dark for the feet of wayward readers.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:57
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Necrotizer F posted:I very much disagree with this. The fact that they feed on "emotional energy" instead of doing physical harm (by drinking blood) allows them to initially be present as, well, maybe not "good" but the least harmful. Initially. That gives Dresden a way to rationalize tolerating and even allying with them. Thomas comes off initially as a fun-loving guy who gets his food by showing his partners a really good time in bed. Thomas rapes people to death. Thomas raped *children* to death. There is no real complexity there. If some one rapes and murders to stay alive maybe they shouldn't be alive.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:04
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I feel like the White Court goes way too far over the line for it to come off as gray to me.(Who seriously thought extra rapey vampires was a good idea) And there always like a ton of look at all these kids they're murdering but it never shows Dresden trying to intercede to protect White Court victims he just kinda makes a sour face and keeps on trucking when he was willing to start a war to save his girlfriend and he killed the woman he loves and committed genocide on the Red Court for a daughter he had never met. So it comes off as less Dresden is an essentially moral antihero and more Dresden is an rear end in a top hat who only cares about his own interests and sometimes those interests are saving women because of chauvinism as long as its not too much trouble. This would be fine I guess(maybe not a book I'd want to read but whatever) except Dresden is literally in Gods good book so there is two heaping scoops of stupid and ridiculous in there. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 20:17
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You folks are posting like Harry randomly rolled up on Susan and shot her. Context, guys. Also it's kind of weird to complain that Harry doesn't do anything about the White Court (which is certainly a fair criticism) but then also complain that he completely solved the issue of the Red Court.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:27
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Thats actually my argument he murdered the gently caress out of the Red Court but willingly works with the White Court when they are just as bad if not worse
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Oct 24, 2019 20:29
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The White Court really makes it feel like Harry doesn't think rape is a serious crime, which is an issue.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:31
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And he only bothered to kill the Red Court because they threatened something he cared about and not all the wizards and mortals that were getting killed in the war that he started.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:35
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Why is this one man not launching a personal war against every bad organization out there, I can not stand for the fact that only one of these bad organizations was belligerent enough to start a war over his self defense.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:39
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:Why is this one man not launching a personal war against every bad organization out there, I can not stand for the fact that only one of these bad organizations was belligerent enough to start a war over his self defense. Nobody is complaining about him working with Marcone or being forced to work with Nicodemus and I'm willing to go as far as Mab and the Winter Court. There is room for nuance here, but a lot of his characterization is that he won't stand for women and children being hurt but when push comes to shove he is fine with working with the rape murder vampires.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:51
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Ornamented Death posted:
No one is doing that. Rather, it's the contrast of "wipe out this group of bad guys literally to the last one," and do nothing AND collaborate with the other. The convenience of who gets his ire is a low point in the writing, and this is a good example of that.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:52
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Harry did say Lara was his second option if Mab didn’t work out, and while she seemed to be a fairly sure thing I wonder how she would have even helped considering they work behind the scenes and Harry’s back was only healed by extremely powerful magic.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:59
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He didn’t set out on that trip with the goal of wiping them out, that was just a happy coincidence. He set out to rescue his daughter, granted he didn’t even know she existed at the beginning of the book, but had he not rescued her he would have keeled over dead wherever he was in the world.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:06
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bobjr posted:Harry did say Lara was his second option if Mab didn’t work out, and while she seemed to be a fairly sure thing I wonder how she would have even helped considering they work behind the scenes and Harry’s back was only healed by extremely powerful magic. It was Lashel and The Dark Hollow for healing. Lara was his second choice for suicide.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:07
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Yeah he was going to let Lara feed on him presumably because the sex would be pretty good.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:09
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Daric posted:He didn’t set out on that trip with the goal of wiping them out, that was just a happy coincidence. He set out to rescue his daughter, granted he didn’t even know she existed at the beginning of the book, but had he not rescued her he would have keeled over dead wherever he was in the world. There was no way that trip didn't end with a fuckload of Red Court and/or Harry dead, like he didn't set out to kill them all but its not like he wouldn't if he thought he could. (and he did) bobjr posted:Harry did say Lara was his second option if Mab didn’t work out, and while she seemed to be a fairly sure thing I wonder how she would have even helped considering they work behind the scenes and Harry’s back was only healed by extremely powerful magic. Edit:Also guy said it earlier as a snide remark but TBH I really do want HARRY BLACKSTONE COPPERFIELD DRESDEN tears down all the corrupt halls of power and spits in the eyes of god. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 21:11
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:Why is this one man not launching a personal war against every bad organization out there, I can not stand for the fact that only one of these bad organizations was belligerent enough to start a war over his self defense. Here lies Harry Dresden He died doing the practical thing 
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Oct 25, 2019 01:39
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ImpAtom posted:Thomas rapes people to death. Thomas raped *children* to death. There is no real complexity there. If some one rapes and murders to stay alive maybe they shouldn't be alive. Do you know where we get dairy milk and veal?
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Oct 25, 2019 05:35
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ImpAtom posted:Thomas rapes people to death. Thomas raped *children* to death. There is no real complexity there. If some one rapes and murders to stay alive maybe they shouldn't be alive. The one time I recall Thomas choosing to murder someone through the use of his feeding was in that Oblivion war story and that person had to die, whether it was through an icepick to the brain, a bullet to the heart or what Thomas did. Given the circumstances, Thomas gave her peaceful (and actively pleasurable) death. The other times Thomas killed by feeding have not been by his choice. Hold your breath. Keep holding it. And still longer. Eventually, no matter how much you want to or how hard you try, you'll have to exhale. Breathing, like pissing and making GBS threads is something we as human have only limited conscious control over. Eventually, you'll need to piss or poo poo or sleep or exhale. In certain circumstances Thomas (and any other White Court vampire) has to feed. It's not a choice. The naagloshi tortured Thomas, causing his powers to heal him until he couldn't resist feeding. He couldn't prevent himself from feeding any more than you can prevent yourself from exhaling. A similar circumstance occurred when Thomas first became a vampire the Hunger overwhelmed him forced a lethal feeding made him a full vampire. Ornamented Death posted:You folks are posting like Harry randomly rolled up on Susan and shot her. Context, guys. Harry solved the issue of the Red Court because the Red Court did 99.5% of the work toward said solving. If the Red Court hadn't set up that "Bloodline ritual" in an attempt to kill, well, really just Harry and Ebenezer because I don't think they knew about Thomas, they'd still be around. Meanwhile, Harry did "do something" about the White Court. He set Lara up to "puppet-master" the White King and take control of it. Harry didn't wipe it off the face of the earth because he couldn't. So, instead he put it under the control of someone who was prudent, rational, self-controlled and in his debt. Much of the time Harry doesn't get to choose between good and bad. He has to choose between bad and worse. On a related topic, the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. Should we "do something" about Iran, North Korea and China? Should we attack them, try to conquer them? They're bad places run by bad people who do bad things. Sure, there a decent chance doing that would end in a nuclear holocaust, but sure we should "do something," right?
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Oct 25, 2019 05:54
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DreamingofRoses posted:Do you know where we get dairy milk and veal? Not even remotely close. Necrotizer F posted:Hold your breath. Keep holding it. And still longer. Eventually, no matter how much you want to or how hard you try, you'll have to exhale. Breathing, like pissing and making GBS threads is something we as human have only limited conscious control over. Eventually, you'll need to piss or poo poo or sleep or exhale. In certain circumstances Thomas (and any other White Court vampire) has to feed. It's not a choice. The naagloshi tortured Thomas, causing his powers to heal him until he couldn't resist feeding. He couldn't prevent himself from feeding any more than you can prevent yourself from exhaling. A similar circumstance occurred when Thomas first became a vampire the Hunger overwhelmed him forced a lethal feeding made him a full vampire. So here's the problem with that, and it's a problem with a lot of vampire fiction but doubly so here. Every vampire, no matter what, chooses to sustain their own life at the cost of others. This is a basic part of the concept. Even if they only take life when they 'lose control' that does not change that fact that they have to literally murder people to survive. The White Court (or at least Thomas's part of it) adds in "must rape AND murder to survive." No amount of "but maybe Thomas only targets bad people or only does it when he's badly hurt" changes the fact that Thomas is a ticking time bomb who only sustains the thinnest covering of 'good guy' as long as he is never actually put into a position where he is at risk. And then he pals around with Harry Dresden and is part of a secret super war so he knows drat well he's going to get hurt enough to need another of the ol' rape-murders eventually. Now you can go here "but Thomas only does that when he's out of control or really has to" but you ignore the fact that Thomas rapes people. Straight-up. He uses his magical vampire seduction power to destroy people's inhibitions or make them sleep with him when they wouldn't normally. He can only stop this when he is actively choosing to rape instead. No matter what Thomas does he rapes people. Butcher plays this as a joke but uh, that doesn't really work when we see other kinds of mental violation on a regular basis which *is* treating as horrible and disgusting. Thomas being hot doesn't make what he does any less rape. Thomas, like every vampire character, is built on the idea that the audience is okay with him murdering people so he doesn't die. This is a hard pill to swallow at the best of times but with Thomas you have to include the 'also mentally (and frequently physically) violating people' part and the part where literally any other kind of character who does this is treated like they are Space MegaHitler. Every other character who has to struggle even an iota gets poo poo on constantly while Thomas does significantly worse in every single appearance he's in (he literally saves the day with rape in his first appearance) and never actually suffers an iota of the consequences for it. Even when he is literally responsible for a group of murders the treatment he gets is "aww poor babby Thomas is suffering so much, time to cure him with a threesome" and not, you know, everyone being utterly disgusted by a literal rapist who occasionally murders his victims being part of the inner circle
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Oct 25, 2019 06:12
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Necrotizer F posted:On a related topic, the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. Should we "do something" about Iran, North Korea and China? Should we attack them, try to conquer them? They're bad places run by bad people who do bad things. Sure, there a decent chance doing that would end in a nuclear holocaust, but sure we should "do something," right? Edit:I also think its really bad when the US does things like work with dictators and overthrows democratic governments but this isn't D&D Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 06:27
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You guys sure like your black and white. Do you ever read horror fiction?
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Oct 25, 2019 06:30
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Necrotizer F posted:Harry solved the issue of the Red Court because the Red Court did 99.5% of the work toward said solving. If the Red Court hadn't set up that "Bloodline ritual" in an attempt to kill, well, really just Harry and Ebenezer because I don't think they knew about Thomas, they'd still be around. Harry only took out Papa Raith because he tried to kill Dresden and Thomas(if I remember correctly) not for a moral reason. The White Court is not neutralized, defeated or destroyed if anything they are stronger than ever with their biggest enemy destroyed and they now have a competent leader at the helm and at no point did they stop hurting people. And Harry did this, HE did all of this. If it was like okay the White Court played the poo poo out of Dresden and now he is looking for an opportunity to get back at them it would be one thing but he basically has Lara on speed dial for when he needs a favor and he and Thomas are only slightly less best buds. Wizchine posted:You guys sure like your black and white. Do you ever read horror fiction? Hub Cat posted:Nobody is complaining about him working with Marcone or being forced to work with Nicodemus and I'm willing to go as far as Mab and the Winter Court. There is room for nuance here, but a lot of his characterization is that he won't stand for women and children being hurt but when push comes to shove he is fine with working with the rape murder vampires. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 07:04
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Wizchine posted:You guys sure like your black and white. Do you ever read horror fiction? Butcher can do somewhat interesting things with the nature of power and ends justify the means, yada yada. Not great, but not bad. On the other hand, Butcher has a really garbage track record when it comes to sex and gender in both series he's written, and the other one he started. The White Court is the kind of thing that, were it a frozen pond, it would require skill and grace to navigate across without plunging straight through into the abyss of piss. Jim Butcher is a drunk labrador driving a ten ton Zamboni.
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Oct 25, 2019 07:33
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There's a lot of mileage in the monster struggling to be human, and I see what Butcher is going for with Thomas. But sex and consent is a hot button topic, rape is thought of as a particularly evil and vile act, and it touches the lives of a huge number of people, more than you might realize. So it was a poor choice of Butcher's to make his struggling monster a sex vampire. Pretty much any other choice would be far more sympathetic.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:08
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ImpAtom posted:Not even remotely close. Forcing captive animals to impregnate each other and then stealing the resulting child to slaughter and eat while forcing the mother to continue lactating so we can have her milk is nowhere close? You want to talk about violating consent and bodily autonomy? How about river otters or ducks? Do they deserve to stop existing? I’m not saying you’re wrong about Butcher, although I disagree with some of your premise, but heinous poo poo has been done for food since carnivores and omnivores started walking the earth, and nature is completely hosed. I get that you’re approaching this as an outside examination of the author/work, but from an inside view saying “you don’t deserve to live because your source of food is wrong” is simplistic, or you are actually advocating for wiping out a shitton of life since for a good chunk of the food chain each meal involves a murder.
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Oct 25, 2019 13:08
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DreamingofRoses posted:Forcing captive animals to impregnate each other and then stealing the resulting child to slaughter and eat while forcing the mother to continue lactating so we can have her milk is nowhere close? You want to talk about violating consent and bodily autonomy? How about river otters or ducks? Do they deserve to stop existing? Well, yeah, but there is a considerable difference between eating animals and eating sentient beings. Let's recall that Thomas the sex vampire was introduced in Grave Peril, which was published in 2001. Blood Rites, which is the books that "sets the rules" for the White Court, was published in 2004. Thomas as a character has not appeared since since Cold Days was published in 2012. While he's written a few short stories, Butcher hasn't published a new novel since Skin Game was released in 2014. While the concept/phrase was coined in 2006, the #MeToo movement and the greater awareness of and sensitivity to sexual harassment/rape/etc. didn't really take off until Oct. 2017. While the show is more sensitive now, I can still recall Eliot Stabler on Law and Order: SVU referring to transgendered people as "he-shes." Stuff that's awful now was frequently fully acceptable when it was made. Cultures change. The real test for Butcher on this issue will be the forthcoming Peace Talks. I suspect that it will have a lot to do with the White Court and we'll see how Harry ends up dealing with them and especially his attitude toward them.
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Oct 25, 2019 13:42
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If you guys don’t think Dresden is going to become the Blackstaff, I don’t know what to tell you
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Oct 25, 2019 14:12
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Regardless of how bad they truly are Harry sees them as the lesser evil most of the time, plus seeing Lara as the best option to lead them, but there’s not exactly a good second option for that either. Harry does get way more aggressive and hostile with Marcone who’s crimes are more vague and has some sort of human standards though.
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Oct 25, 2019 14:27
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Pretty weird to see real life people, who lack free will, arguing about supposed moral choices of fictional characters. But of course you can’t help it.
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Oct 25, 2019 14:53
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bobjr posted:Regardless of how bad they truly are Harry sees them as the lesser evil most of the time, plus seeing Lara as the best option to lead them, but there’s not exactly a good second option for that either. Dresden, like many people in the real world, has different rules for people depending on his relationship with them. Dresden and Marcone are semi-allies by necessity. Neither likes the other. Each would rid himself of the other but each also has more pressing enemies on their respective "To Do/Kill" lists. And a lot of the same names appear on each man's list. Marcone is a criminal. A mobster. He makes his money via drugs, prostitution, loan sharking, etc. He hurts people. He kills people. Granted that Marcone has "rules" regarding children/innocents/etc and attempts to minimize the misery index of his activities. Still, there's a limit to the level by which the "misery index" of drug pushing, prostitution, load sharking, etc. can be reduced. Thomas is family. Prior to learning that Thomas was his brother, Dresden believed himself to be alone, family speaking. Lara Raith is Thomas's sister, so she's also kind of Dresden's family. Even before that revelation, Thomas showed himself to be a valuable friend and ally to Dresden. And even though he was aware of what White Court vampires generally did, his experience with Thomas was as someone who fed by showing women looking to have a really good time a really, really good time. In comparison with the addiction slavery of the Red Court and the straight up murder of the Black Court, the White Court came off as almost "benign." They aren't. They're just more subtle (and under Lara more controlled). One reason that a species of "rape vampires" is treated as a "lesser evil" is because they kind of are. The Dresden universe is a pretty horrifying place. In the face of various warlocks, necromancers, Nicodemus and friends, Outsiders, Fomor, Ghouls, Naagloshi and gently caress only knows else I've forgotten or has yet to be revealed, Queen Mab, Lara Raith and Johnny Marcone, as bad as they are, end up being lesser evils if not active allies. Hell, in WWII, the USA actively allied with the USSR under Josef Stalin, who "only" killed 6.5 million of his own people compared to 11 million who perished in Hitler's Holocaust. Everyone fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 15:23
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Necrotizer F posted:Well, yeah, but there is a considerable difference between eating animals and eating sentient beings. I disagree on the whole “eating a ‘sentient’ thing is worse” but that’s more for the science/philosophy threads. I agree with everything else and I’m looking forward to Peace Talks.
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Oct 25, 2019 15:27
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DreamingofRoses posted:I disagree on the whole “eating a ‘sentient’ thing is worse” but that’s more for the science/philosophy threads. I agree with everything else and I’m looking forward to Peace Talks. One interesting thing to consider is that Dresden has a daughter and is actively involved in her life. There's strong likelihood that Dresden will start to view the White Court through a lens of "what if they did that to Maggie?" Not-blood-related to me half-sister (that I really want to gently caress even though it would probably kill me) to my half-brother becomes a far more tenuous connection compared to my child who was conceived when I had sexual intercourse with the woman who loved me and whom I also very much loved (and then had to murder through ritual sacrifice to save my child (and my grandfather, half-brother and myself) because the Dresdenverse is a pretty horrifying place). Everyone fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 15:34
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All this talk about doing the right thing reminds me of , who was it, Lucio? Lucio telling Harry why the wizards didn't get involved in world politics.
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Oct 25, 2019 16:02
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Exmond posted:All this talk about doing the right thing reminds me of , who was it, Lucio? Lucio telling Harry why the wizards didn't get involved in world politics. Good thing she became a co-ed before she told Harry that, otherwise he might not have noticed she was talking to him. I mean, I kid- but I feel that pointing out that sexual politics / issues of that vein didn't become big until after Thomas was a thing kind of misses the greater point that the White Court looks especially bad in the context that Jim Butcher treats women in his fiction. And I don't mean in Dresden Files, I mean in all his fiction. Saying things like "Thomas was forced to" is fair- but Jim made a conscious decision to put that into the book. That doesn't mean he's a bad person, and it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy Dresden Files. I'm re-reading the series. But it means he's kind of... weird. Clumsy. And consider, for a second, the username and avatar of the motherfucker saying this. To use another example: The gay panic isn't malicious. I've never gotten the vibe that Jim has a particular malice toward ~the gays~, and as someone who thinks guys are a sometimes food and was raised with the help of two gay relatives, I would drop the series like a bad habit if I did. But it kind of sucks. It's not funny. It doesn't add anything to the series. It's clumsy and cringey. On the one hand, I know it's a matter of perspective, not negative intent. Jim Butcher's fiction is a product of Jim Butcher's time, a 47 year old dude raised in the Midwest. I don't expect a nuanced or interesting take on anything queer by Jim Butcher. On the other hand, gently caress off with that kind of 'comedy' when you don't have one good depiction of a gay character in the entire series. And you can say 'well he's learned', but... not really? Because you still have a lot of that dumb 'why do you do this to women, Jim' poo poo in Skin Game. And I honestly wouldn't give a poo poo if I didn't otherwise enjoy the books and his style as much as I do. I'd just drop him off a cliff, like I did GRRM in hindsight. For what it's worth I've also talked about Verus in the same way with a female friend, and yeah, Verus is also problematic- but less... ? Part of Verus' problem is that the books are somewhat tight and largely centered around Alex, but looking at the cast of female characters and the roles they slot into, it can be a little 
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Oct 25, 2019 17:12
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e: You know what, screw this. This is not the place to be exploring statements on moral relativity, no matter how idiotic.
anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 17:29
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