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Herstory Begins Now posted:Oh you said 'one of the most' Gotta keep it open, but that's another good one lol A big flaming stink posted:Dont forget the "never had a holocaust" bit showing that genocides work on a "take a penny, leave a penny" basis Yeah that kind of atrocity leveling always makes me sick. Please present your [One Free Ethnic Cleansing] pass. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 20:49 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 20:47
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Torrannor posted:Wow, "no startup culture" was the very second defense he offered. I have no idea who that guy is, does he even oppose the war in Yemen (based on the 350k dead people he mentioned), or what? dont forget the "never had a holocaust" bit showing that genocides work on a "take a penny, leave a penny" basis
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May 16, 2021 20:47
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Miftan posted:There were Jews who came to Israel before that (during the 20s) and there's always been some Jews left in the country so that's just wrong. By the time of the haavara there were already well established Jewish settlements I'm the area both from immigrants and jess who had lived there a while, if I'm remembering correctly. Back in university I naively thought if I studied I/P history enough, I could figure out exactly where it all started, thinking it was the result of cold war politics. I kept on having to go further and further back in time until at some point I stumbled upon sources referring to persecution of Jews by the Romans who renamed Judea to Palestine in the 2nd century. At which point I realized that I wasn't going to singlehandedly invent world peace at the age of 20 and also people are really really good at holding grudges  For the record, last I checked scholars disagree on the Judea Palestine thing and it might just be a tool of propaganda, but yeah. Anyways, I was off the grid for a week and the news from Gaza looks terrible. What kicked off this latest round? Is Bibi making a show to put together a coalition or something?
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May 16, 2021 20:52
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Torrannor posted:Wow, "no startup culture" was the very second defense he offered. I have no idea who that guy is, does he even oppose the war in Yemen (based on the 350k dead people he mentioned), or what? Sadly, he was a Bernie 2020 co-chair, but he's always been a PodSaveLiberal who sucks but says some good things. Speaking of PSA, Tommy Vietor just RTed this which was interesting: https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1394014918429577217?s=19
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May 16, 2021 20:52
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Fruits of the sea posted:Back in university I naively thought if I studied I/P history enough, I could figure out exactly where it all started, thinking it was the result of cold war politics. I kept on having to go further and further back in time until at some point I stumbled upon sources referring to persecution of Jews by the Romans who renamed Judea to Palestine in the 2nd century. At which point I realized that I wasn't going to singlehandedly invent world peace at the age of 20 and also people are really really good at holding grudges Tensions were high due to looming evictions in East Jeruselam and then the Israeli police stormed Al-Aqsa during ramadan, injuring around 300 people with rubber bullets and stun grenades. The reasons for this have not really been explained but it was likely to intentionally stir up conflict for the Bibi to hold his poo poo together. This pissed off palestinians and rockets were launched from Gaza in retaliation and then Israel started levelling apartment complexes with 500kg bombs. Btw the modern conflict really only dates back to the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the partition by the British. Before that there were Jews in Palestine who were free from persecution and seemed to get along fine with the arabs there.
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May 16, 2021 20:58
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Failed Imagineer posted:Sadly, he was a Bernie 2020 co-chair, but he's always been a PodSaveLiberal who sucks but says some good things. In this context, it's worth noting that the rockets from Gaza hadn't started at that point. The ability of press and politicians to say "both sides" goes down immensely when there's not actually any meaningful aggression from the other side. To the extent that there was a precipitating incident on the other side, it was a series of suicide bombings, but Hamas was only one of several groups and at that point I don't believe they had anything resembling political power. Further, the UN had just reaffirmed commitment to a 2-state solution a couple months before this, so it made international actors look stupid because there was a meaningful peace process being attempted. In contrast, the 2-state solution is now functionally dead, and if anyone is advocating for it now they are blind to the political realities of modern Israel - there's no agreement that the major parties would accept because the status quo is the best deal for them, and the effectiveness of the rocket attacks is much much lower than the suicide bombings of 2002, so they have no motivation to come to the table in terms of loss of life. The settlers represent an entrenched political bloc that will never concede the land they've stolen and none of the right-wing parties would ever ask them to do so. At this point, their security apparatus has completely contained the Palestinians with walls and checkpoints, which is why their only means of lashing out is rockets. Edit: Just to add some numbers, there are around 742k Israeli citizens living in settlements out of 7.62M total Israelis, assuming I'm reading this demographic table right, and it's hard to believe any of them would ever willingly vote for a party proposing they be displaced. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 21:05
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1393755654414811137 Well I see you’re killing off an entire ethnic group but it says here you developed an app for finding tacos so I guess it all balances out
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May 16, 2021 22:09
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Phenotype posted:What am I supposed to think about all this as an American Jew? I was brought up learning about brave, plucky underdog Israel defending itself against all the enemies that want to see them dead. Since I've grown up I've recognized that it's not anywhere as black and white as that, and that Israel looks a lot more like the bad guy, but I've been afraid to really engage with these ideas because I don't know how to reconstruct my worldview if I accept that Israel is the evil empire in this case. And this poo poo is... really evil. I have mentioned it before but it is interesting talking to people of an older generation and today's generation about being Jewish and the relationship with Israel. I have heard that without Israel all Jews all over the world be vulnerable to another Holocaust with no where to go; people want Israel to go away because they want all the Jews dead; Israel will always be villainized regardless of what they do so they should just do what they want anyway (heard that one on the weekend); people around the world are just unhappy that Hamas aren't killing more Jews with their missiles (also heard that one on the weekend) etc. I know people will always talk about Israel being an ethnostate (who hate Jews apparently) but I have also heard that if Israel wasn't a Jewish state then Jews worldwide would have to face expulsion, pogroms and anti-Semitism. It's a lot easier to dismiss or accept certain points as an outsider I guess. It's a lot harder if you are told to accept something and see things that make you question it.
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May 16, 2021 22:26
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Madkal posted:I have also heard that if Israel wasn't a Jewish state then Jews worldwide would have to face expulsion, pogroms and anti-Semitism. I don't get how this one works out even hypothetically, like in the first place, what does it's existence do to stop any of those, like sure you could flee to it if you've got the opportunity, but it's not like it's any kind of deterrent to those and really, does israel do anything good in terms of warding off antisemitism, if anything it feels like their supporters are the preeminent force at devaluing the term itself, when it gets lashed around so often when anyone disagrees with them torching another hospital or whatever they decide on from day to day. It feels like such a divorced from reality idea.
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May 16, 2021 22:58
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Yardbomb posted:I don't get how this one works out even hypothetically, like in the first place, what does it's existence do to stop any of those, like sure you could flee to it if you've got the opportunity, but it's not like it's any kind of deterrent to those and really, does israel do anything good in terms of warding off antisemitism, if anything it feels like their supporters are the preeminent force at devaluing the term itself, when it gets lashed around so often when anyone disagrees with them torching another hospital or whatever they decide on from day to day. It feels like such a divorced from reality idea. I mean, Jewish people having no where to go and there being no countries that will take them in is a very real thing that really happened before, during the Holocaust and after. It’s not a thing they entirely imagined being a problem Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 23:20 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 23:16
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punishedkissinger posted:Btw the modern conflict really only dates back to the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the partition by the British. Before that there were Jews in Palestine who were free from persecution and seemed to get along fine with the arabs there. I do think people need to be more careful about overemphasizing the cosmopolitan nature of Middle-Eastern cities under Ottoman rule. Its an aspect of Ottoman society that often gets overemphasised in part due to western travel writing during the period along with later Western nostalgia for the more soft handed imperialism that was being practiced in the reigion by the French and English. It was hardly an Idyllic situtation; religious populations were often heavily segregated and tensions could often boil over into violent persecution. Of course, the post WWI Mandates did a lot to escalate tensions and laid much of the groundwork for Israel's current ethnic clensing along with the Lebanese civil war and a bunch of other conflicts in the reigion.
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May 16, 2021 23:17
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but does anyone know some good charities to donate to to support the Palestinians affected by the current situation? I'm always iffy on finding charities online and picking one at random because it's hard to find information on which ones are trustworthy. I trust the opinion of D&D goons on this one more than anyone else, so please let me know if you've got some ideas!
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May 16, 2021 23:39
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Vagabong posted:I do think people need to be more careful about overemphasizing the cosmopolitan nature of Middle-Eastern cities under Ottoman rule. Its an aspect of Ottoman society that often gets overemphasised in part due to western travel writing during the period along with later Western nostalgia for the more soft handed imperialism that was being practiced in the reigion by the French and English. It was hardly an Idyllic situtation; religious populations were often heavily segregated and tensions could often boil over into violent persecution. Yeah and I thought The Last Ottoman Generation really suffers from this, as I mentioned earlier. Even though it supposedly relies on contemporary local writings. Really makes it sound like the empire was an amazing progressive multikulti paradise. But regardless of any issues, there's no doubt for me that the british mandate is what led directly to this. Without it there'd simply be no Israel.
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May 16, 2021 23:41
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While jews have historically been one of the largest diasporas that ends up getting persecuted in some countries, they're far from the only persecuted people. And Israel sure hasn't been helping with all the other refugee crises throughout the world. And that's before you even get to how Israel has created refugee crises of their own, or how apparently they don't like certain kinds of jews. It seems plausible that if there wasn't an Israel to be the theoretical refuge for judaism, all the people with that sort of sentiment throughout the world would push for local governments to be more willing to take refugees and fund more useful nonprofits instead of pushing for their governments to ignore crimes against humanity.
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May 16, 2021 23:45
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e: /\/\ dude this idea was literally tested in the 30's. It did not work out. Vagabong posted:I do think people need to be more careful about overemphasizing the cosmopolitan nature of Middle-Eastern cities under Ottoman rule. Its an aspect of Ottoman society that often gets overemphasised in part due to western travel writing during the period along with later Western nostalgia for the more soft handed imperialism that was being practiced in the reigion by the French and English. It was hardly an Idyllic situtation; religious populations were often heavily segregated and tensions could often boil over into violent persecution. Yeah, ask the Armenians how great it was being an ethnic minority in the Ottoman Empire.
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May 17, 2021 00:02
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, Jewish people having no where to go and there being no countries that will take them in is a very real thing that really happened before, during the Holocaust and after. It’s not a thing they entirely imagined being a problem No like that's the part I did get, having the ability to flee there from state or otherwise hostility makes sense, the rest is where I lost where that idea would go, at least in the sense that israel prevents any of those things. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 00:04
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Re : Idf's penchant for murdering protestors, haven't they been doing just that in the West Bank all week?
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May 17, 2021 00:29
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Alchenar posted:e: /\/\ dude this idea was literally tested in the 30's. It did not work out. A huge amount of jews did manage to escape Nazi Germany, and I'm not sure how the existence of Israel as a dedicated refuge would've made a difference that just the awareness after the holocaust would've made. Especially since as things intensified, the issue was more that the Nazis were purposefully restricting the ability of jews to leave and escape, rather than a lack of destinations. So I'm not sure what Israel does to prevent anything similar from happening. Definitely they don't do anything to prevent genocides against other ethnicities (which I guess isn't the point, but the narrower meaning you give "never again" the less it means), and inflaming hatred with their own crimes against humanity sure isn't doing anybody any favors.
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May 17, 2021 00:59
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SlothfulCobra posted:A huge amount of jews did manage to escape Nazi Germany, and I'm not sure how the existence of Israel as a dedicated refuge would've made a difference that just the awareness after the holocaust would've made. Especially since as things intensified, the issue was more that the Nazis were purposefully restricting the ability of jews to leave and escape, rather than a lack of destinations. There was a quota on Jews fleeing Europe put in place by the English so outside of being smuggled in, lots of boats transporting Jews to Palestine were turned away. Ditto for boats bring Jews to North America (most famous being the the SS Any Louise). Nazi Germany was more than happy to let Jews flee in the early 30's. Unfortunately a lot initially left to go to other parts in Europe that became occupied or were unable to leave in time. I think the argument is that it doesn't prevent countries from being anti Semitic but provides a safe haven for escape.
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May 17, 2021 01:05
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PittTheElder posted:Who would negotiate exactly? From the Israeli side you're talking about a well organized government with control of one of the most modern and capable militaries in the world (SA wishes they had what Israel has), and while it's government is particularly divided right now, the one thing they can agree on is that they sure as poo poo aren't giving full and equal rights to a bunch of Palestinians. Is there nothing the United Nations or any other international body can do to stop or push back against Isreali? I'm trying to see if there any possible positive way out of this mess and honestly it doesn't look there is one.
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May 17, 2021 01:28
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is there nothing the United Nations or any other international body can do to stop or push back against Isreali? Not really. There's been countless resolutions against Israel at the UN. The US vetoes most of them; for the ones that get through there's no real teeth so nothing much happened.
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May 17, 2021 01:30
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is there nothing the United Nations or any other international body can do to stop or push back against Isreali? When dealing with problems like this serious action is only possible if all of the Big 5 are on board. The UN was specifically set up by the Big 5 such that it could never be capable of effectively meddling in the business of said Big 5. It's a reasonably good discussion forum but it's not about to compel powerful nations to do anything. This is a crisis that's been a century in the making, and it's not about to get cleaned up quickly. That said, getting the international community on board is going to be necessary, so definitely do bother the poo poo out of your local elected representative, assuming you have one.
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May 17, 2021 01:54
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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JordanKai posted:Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but does anyone know some good charities to donate to to support the Palestinians affected by the current situation? I'm always iffy on finding charities online and picking one at random because it's hard to find information on which ones are trustworthy. I trust the opinion of D&D goons on this one more than anyone else, so please let me know if you've got some ideas! The United Nations would be a good source: https://donate.unrwa.org/gaza/~my-donation?_cv=1
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May 17, 2021 02:08
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PittTheElder posted:When dealing with problems like this serious action is only possible if all of the Big 5 are on board. The UN was specifically set up by the Big 5 such that it could never be capable of effectively meddling in the business of said Big 5. It's a reasonably good discussion forum but it's not about to compel powerful nations to do anything. Putting this down in text, 1. China 2. France 3. Russia 4. United Kingdom 5. United States Thinking about this out loud - I could see the UK and France pushing back against Israeli. Maybe just maybe this will happen with US but I have a difficult time with seeing China and Russia getting on board.
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May 17, 2021 02:26
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Putting this down in text, All they have to do is NOT veto resolutions, IE: 'pushing back' by literally doing nothing. The US seat on the UNSC completely shields Israel from any kind of organized international response in a way that China and Russia aren't interested in replicating.
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May 17, 2021 02:38
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Russia doesn't really give a poo poo either way as far as I can tell? I'm not sure they have any real vested interest there but I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong. China on the other hand is the other potential sticking point, don't their arms industries have a lot of ties? But yeah the US is the biggest impediment to real action by far.
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May 17, 2021 02:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:A huge amount of jews did manage to escape Nazi Germany, and I'm not sure how the existence of Israel as a dedicated refuge would've made a difference that just the awareness after the holocaust would've made. Especially since as things intensified, the issue was more that the Nazis were purposefully restricting the ability of jews to leave and escape, rather than a lack of destinations. There has been like five different times 10,000+ Jewish people have had to flee a country and go to Israel since World War II. It is at least a real thing. 1947-1972 “ The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, in which the combined population of Jewish communities of the Middle East and North Africa (excluding Israel) was reduced from about 900,000 in 1948 to under 8,000 today, and approximately 600,000 of whom became citizens of Israel. ”
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May 17, 2021 02:45
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Putting this down in text, France seems real unlikely given how rife with islamophobia they are.
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May 17, 2021 02:46
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What happens if one day the US gets more rocky with Israel, cuts funding, cuts support/some ties, and takes a position that can even oppose them. Does Israel then go to some other country for support/backing?
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May 17, 2021 03:10
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Gatts posted:What happens if one day the US gets more rocky with Israel, cuts funding, cuts support/some ties, and takes a position that can even oppose them. Does Israel then go to some other country for support/backing? Israel gets turbofucked almost overnight by militant, vengeful neighbouring countries? I don’t know enough to make confident projections of scenarios.
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May 17, 2021 03:54
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Gatts posted:What happens if one day the US gets more rocky with Israel, cuts funding, cuts support/some ties, and takes a position that can even oppose them. Does Israel then go to some other country for support/backing? Israel's past doctrine is if the US stops protecting them and their military falls to invasion they will launch submarine nuclear missiles at the US/Europe/Mid East's etc cities to take them down with them. That was some time ago I haven't seen any more recent stances on it but there is nothing the US can do to stop them from doing this if they actually intend to so it's safer to just help them + any government that doesn't support Israel will have a hard time being elected either way.
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May 17, 2021 04:09
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madmatt112 posted:Israel gets turbofucked almost overnight by militant, vengeful neighboring countries? I don’t know enough to make confident projections of scenarios. I am off the understanding that earlier animosity towards Israeli has diminished over time along with strengthened economic ties would likely make this scenario unlikely. And I think that Israeli's military now even if they were all on their own would put up one hell of a insanely good fight especially given that most of the other Middle Eastern Countries don't have the capabilities to fight a modern war. As a last resort, they do have Nuclear Weapons.
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May 17, 2021 04:20
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madmatt112 posted:Israel gets turbofucked almost overnight by militant, vengeful neighbouring countries? I don’t know enough to make confident projections of scenarios. No, Israel could crush conventional offensives by any of its neighbors, and then has nuclear weapons after that. Flannelette posted:Israel's past doctrine is if the US stops protecting them and their military falls to invasion they will launch submarine nuclear missiles at the US/Europe/Mid East's etc cities to take them down with them. That was some time ago I haven't seen any more recent stances on it but there is nothing the US can do to stop them from doing this if they actually intend to so it's safer to just help them + any government that doesn't support Israel will have a hard time being elected either way. Nuking the US and Europe . . . was not Israeli military doctrine ever.
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May 17, 2021 04:33
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madmatt112 posted:Israel gets turbofucked almost overnight by militant, vengeful neighbouring countries? I don’t know enough to make confident projections of scenarios. Who exactly? Egypt? Whatever the hell is left of the Syrian army? Lebanon's tiny military? Is the King of Jordan going to suddenly decide he wants a beachfront home in Tel-Aviv?
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May 17, 2021 04:53
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Who exactly? Egypt? Whatever the hell is left of the Syrian army? Lebanon's tiny military? Is the King of Jordan going to suddenly decide he wants a beachfront home in Tel-Aviv? 
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May 17, 2021 04:58
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OctaMurk posted:Nuking the US and Europe . . . was not Israeli military doctrine ever. Some writers have written about the Samson Option, which may be a retaliative strategy, or it might be something darker.
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May 17, 2021 05:05
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madmatt112 posted:Israel gets turbofucked almost overnight by militant, vengeful neighbouring countries? I don’t know enough to make confident projections of scenarios. Nah Israel has normalized it's relations with its neighbors for long enough, that would probably rely on political change in neighboring states as well. Even if all the Arab states still had a hard on for destroying Israel, historically only a coalition of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan has been able to really threaten Israel with military defeat. Israel is stronger now than its ever been, meanwhile Syria is mid civil war, the Egyptian regime has been bought off with a firehose of American money, and Jordan isn't anywhere near strong enough to go it alone.
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May 17, 2021 05:07
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Flannelette posted:Israel's past doctrine is if the US stops protecting them and their military falls to invasion they will launch submarine nuclear missiles at the US/Europe/Mid East's etc cities to take them down with them. That was some time ago I haven't seen any more recent stances on it but there is nothing the US can do to stop them from doing this if they actually intend to so it's safer to just help them + any government that doesn't support Israel will have a hard time being elected either way. Sources please
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May 17, 2021 05:10
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Ravel posted:Some writers have written about the Samson Option, which may be a retaliative strategy, or it might be something darker. Some writers writing what they think the Israeli military should do =/= Israeli military doctrine
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May 17, 2021 05:28
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droll posted:Sources please
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